Out of curiosity, why would we not mock or judge her, a woman of faith, equally? We (collective Jezebel, it seems sometimes must be Atheist) happily judge fundie Christians, right?
Why do we give a pass to Muslimas?
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ETA/Rework the wording a little.
If you are out and about and see the Duggars, in their dowdy skirts and crowning glory hairstyles, do you judge them as other? I do. Pentecostals of any stripe earn my liberal derision, because I'm a pagan bitch that way.
Hasidic Jews, for some reason, get a pass. The Amish are borderline, but they get a pass. And Muslimas get a pass. Old Catholic women? Check, they get one too.
@labeled: I'm just hazarding a guess here, but I think it's because veils and hijabs are not particularly "extreme" Muslim wear. In that way, I wouldn't equate it to dowdy Duggar-style wear; I think I would equate it with perhaps to a Christian wearing a cross necklace or cross earrings. However, I think Westerners are prone to think of them as extreme because we have been conditioned to think that they are through the media, controversies in Europe, etc. Moreover, I think people might tend to think of veils and hijabs as being a bigger deal because they are, well, physically larger than a cross necklace or earrings would be. Either way, the Muslim women who I know don't think that wearing the veil/hijab is a big deal, much in the way that a Christan woman wouldn't think much of wearing cross jewelry.
And I think fundamentalists might be derided against more on Jezebel than other types/sects of religion b/c of their extremism, which affects our daily lives (for example, pro-lifers wanting to get rid of Roe vs. Wade). I think Hasidic Jews and the Amish get a past because they don't do anything that affects the majority in a palpable, vocal way. Same with Muslims wearing veils--that doesn't affect me. And of course, I am speaking from the perspective of an American... this may be different from Jezzies who are more familiar with these lifestyles or who live in other countries...
@bumblebeetuna.is.new.tie.wearing: That's about as well-thought-out a reason as I suppose could exist. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
My thought is that as "liberals" we bend over backwards sometimes to prove that we're "better" than the Real Ammurrica who would castigate Muslims in particular because of their 9/11 prejudices.
@labeled: I definitely think that you have an interesting point though! I agree with you that perhaps our own liberal bents (I'm about as liberal as you can get) probably make us more prone to ridicule or dismiss fundamentalist views. In that way, your comment definitely gave me pause. Sometimes I do wonder--am I being unfair? Should I actually consider the viewpoint instead of immediately poking holes in the argument or shaking my head at the arguer, as I am wont to do?
@bumblebeetuna.is.new.tie.wearing: I think you sort of nailed it with the line about the hijab being physically bigger than a cross or something similar. You might not even notice that a person is wearing a cross necklace, but you can't really miss a hijab. I'm sure it's not meant to, but I could see where someone wearing one could easily be seen as being like, "HI! I'M MUSLIM. DID YOU CATCH THAT? AND I'M BEING DEGRADED AND FORCED TO WEAR THIS HEAD SCARF."
It constantly irritates me how women who wear the hijab are automatically judged as the ultimate "other". So many just assume that this is not only a display of faith, but of personality. Because she wears the hijab, she is instantly stereotyped as an oppressed, subservient woman who is interested only in her own culture, which she of course will indoctrinate us all into. They are so often judged as being un-American, as if because they wear the veil they can't possibly want to listen to the popular music channel or watch trashy TV about rich teenagers or you know, have a life.
This pains me because of how the many Muslim friends I've had over the years have been judged for wearing the veil. Even just seeing how shocked some people are when they realize one hijab-wearing friend of mine listens to metal and wears combat boots under her long skirt fills me with disappointment. It's like they don't realize she is a person simply because of how she displays her faith.
Ok, I'm done.
@JessIsElf-ity: As I stated above, I actually disagree with you - on this site, or in liberal communities, an obviously Pentecostal woman would receive a more harsh critique.
So if it's good for the (Christmas?) goose, why isn't it good for the gander?
@labeled: I read your comment and I think you have a very valid point. We do give others a pass depending on our own personal politics, which is probably something that needs further examination. As it stands, though, I do not live in a liberal community, and I think most people I know would be more likely to give Christians or even Jews a pass no matter how strict their beliefs (probably because they are abkle to view them as "American").
Does she mean to say this "little piece of fabric" doesn't symbolize something much bigger, say, her BELIEFS? And that by wearing this symbol she really doesn't separate herself at all from others who don't share this particular belief?
It is indeed a very big whoop that she chooses to subjugate herself to a misogynistic religion. That veil she wears announces to the world that she is less worthy of respect than Muslim men.
Ok. But let's say that tomorrow this little piece of fabric became really mainstream trendy, and everyone on the street was wearing one. How would the Hijab-wearing population react?
I think that Mrs. Sobh has to acknowledge that the Hijab is also a symbol. Presented under this angle, I wonder if Mrs Sobh would reiterate her "Big whoop".
Touchy subject though. But interesting nonetheless.
I do agree with her point though, all women are infinitely different and infinitely similar. Big whoops all around.
@bibomaco: Western designers consistently appropriate styles, cuts and fabrics from other cultures, without regard to culturally-specific meaning. See, e.g., the popularity of Keffiyeh a few years ago ([en.wikipedia.org])
or the 'Chinoiserie' of the mid-late 19th Century.
I used to have a very different view about Hijabs. However, my freshmen year of college, the honors program I was in took a trip to a local mosque and a girl there (who was about my age) talked a lot about Muslim religion and culture to us. She presented a lot of the rules that I thought were always oppressive to women in a way that made me view it all differently.
First she addressed how women had to be in the back to pray. Coming from a Christian background, I thought "well women should be able to pray wherever they want". She made the joke, "We're here to pray. When we pray we get on our hands and knees and bend over. I honestly don't want some dirty old man staring at my butt."
Then she talked about the hijabs. Many of the mosques in the US are relatively liberal and women are only required to wear them when they are are there. However, women still choose to wear them here to express their cultural identity. I don't think of it any different than my Jewish friends who would wear a yarmulke around on holidays. You can't always say the same is true around the world, but around here 90% of Muslims I've met have had more liberal in the role of women.
@psychgirl1221: I don't think of it any different than my Jewish friends who would wear a yarmulke around on holidays.
Or more than that, the Orthodox Jewish women who are out there being perfectly normal members of the working world while wearing wigs, scarves, hats, or other head coverings.
@psychgirl1221: the problem is that the girl you're speaking of wasn't giving the actual reasons the things are done. For example, while she may not want men to ogle her butt, that's not why she was being forced to pray in the back. She had no choice about the matter. She was retroactively justifying her oppression. It's no different than if blacks in America during the 1940s had said "Who would want to be in the front of the bus? If we're in a head-on collision, I'm safer back here."
@Etoiles: I feel complicated about that, too, though. The one-sidedness of the restrictions is what concerns me. I do not pretend to have a deep understanding of religion, but what little I do see seems to apply these restrictions to diminish women's sexuality because men somehow can't trust themselves if they see a woman's hair. This means the restrictions have nothing to do with the values or needs of women, but instead with the stance of men. I am fine with not extrapolating political views from the fact of wearing the hijab or a wig, but the underpinnings of the restriction do carry on a world view that defines everything in terms of the male gaze.
@pmarble: frankly, I don't see how you can NOT extract political implications of wearing religious garb that, by definition, affects one group in a discriminatory fashion as compared to other groups. So, yes, I think its oppressive for any religion to force one group (e.g. women) to cover their head, whether its jewish or muslim. However, whereas Judaism does very little to systematically oppress women in any other way (excluding the issues with education in some Orthodox communities), many sects of Islam have the coverings as only one part of a large-scale oppression (e.g. Saudi Arabia having a legal presumption that a woman cannot testify unless she is deemed sane and whatnot).
@mattharvest: Yes and no. The fact is, no one is forcing her to wear it here. She was and adult and free to make her own decisions. She chose to because of pride and acceptance of her religious/cultural values.
I have to look at things in context. Its not my beliefs or values, but it is hers. If she feels empowered to wear it, then so be it. Its only oppression if it is being forced. I went to a women's college and there were a number of Muslim students who chose to wear it and others who didn't. There certainly wasn't anyone at a Methodist women's college forcing them to. Their parents weren't forcing them to. Yet they made the decision to because they wanted to.
And personally, I don't think that there is anything oppressive about modesty if you want to go that route. As long as personal choice is involved and you're not being forced by some external force, then I don't think it counts.
@psychgirl1221: your statement "it's only oppression if it is being forced" seems to completely misunderstand the problem. It's not that someone is holding a gun to their head (though, in places like Saudia Arabia and increasingly Egypt, they are). It's that they've been so heavily indoctrinated that they cannot meaningfully decide. They are brainwashed in childhood long before they can develop the reasoning required. Then, it reaches the point where the woman is incapable of actually considering the issue.
@psychgirl1221: "I honestly don't want some dirty old man staring at my butt."
Really? I think I'd get pretty distracted if I was presented with a row of men bending over. I've heard similar justifications for covering only women, and restricting the movement and action of only women, and it has never sat well with me. It makes women responsible for mens behavior, on top of their own, and it erases female sexual desire. In a patriarchal religious culture, men would never stand for impositions similar to those placed upon women.
When I see a woman wearing a headscarf in a country where there is freedom of religion, I see it as an expression of their faith. Same as wearing a cross pendant, same as yarmulkes. I'm a-ok with it. I see plenty of beautiful young Muslim women, covered head to wrists to feet and ROCKIN' IT.
It's a complicated issue, for certain, and sometimes I wish I lived in a society as secular as France or Belgium, but I don't think it's helpful for anyone to forbid girls to come to school with the scarfs on.
@MissBuckyC: Also, it depends on the veil. Hijab doesn't bug me, but niqab and burka do. It's like the difference between expressing a religious identity and concealing a personal one to me. *shrug*
So here's the story of a woman, who asks other women to speak their truth and becomes an accidental whistleblower. Hebba, the heroine of the story, isn't trying to do anything but explain what is going on in the lives of the people she puts on her show.
I'm going to write directly and without censoring myself, but will make this caveat first: I'm not a racist, and I'm not religious, at all. I'm a humanist, I guess, an atheist myself, but tolerant toward religious life.
Here's what bothers me about the veil: When I see women wearing the veil, I get the distinct impression from them that they consider me unclean and horrible for not wearing one. As if their facial expressions convey "you are dirty and beneath me. I am a pious woman of G-d and you are an unkempt heathen"
I also get this impression from women in Conservative Christian or Christian Orthodox garb, and from some Orthodox Jewish women in their extremely modest clothing and wigs.
As if my running around with my wild, thick, exposed and untamed hair is a personal affront to them. I dress rather conservatively, but my hair has a life of it's own. Some veiled and/or wigged women just make me feel uncomfortable being myself around them.
Granted, I could be misinterpreting their facial expressions. It could be they are just expecting me to hate them and put on the "bitch" face at me in order to defend themselves.
I could give specific examples, but there's just too many to note.
I live in Seattle, and take public transportation everywhere. Most of the nasty looks I've received in this context are from other bus riders.
@thesciencegirl: I admit it could be projection. I could be expecting the looks, thus seeing what I expect.
However, I didn't say "I'm not a racist, but...". I said "I'm not a racist, and I'm not religious, at all."
My statements (the ones you don't trust) come straight from my heart. Whether or not you trust them doesn't invalidate them, something I think you understand when you note that you haven't lived my experience.
I am a human, complete with all the foibles and failings of one, and I'm open to being educated.
I'd really welcome a Muslim woman's - or an Orthodox Jewish woman's - perspective on my experience. Am I (and other unveiled American women) hated and feared by them? Or not? And why? or why not?
@euterpe35: I live in Seattle too, have unruly curly hair, and take Metro daily. I have never noticed any devout women glaring at me.
In general, I don't assume that the expression that a stranger on the bus is wearing has anything to do with me. I am simply not important enough for strangers to completely focus their thoughts on me and rearrange their faces to convey their judgment. It seems narcissistic to imagine otherwise. They have their own lives to think about.
@euterpe35: If you regularly assign malevolent attitudes to an entire group of people based on how they look, I would think that the problem is your expectations of their opinions, and not their actual opinions. I'm not really clear why you think someone's choice of head covering reflects any thoughts about you whatsoever.
*Addresses the room*: Um, ladies? Is there a Muslim woman representative around? Can we get an official response please?
@euterpe35: It really does seem like projection. My mother wears a headscarf, I've grown up around women wearing them, and I've never once in my life heard anyone make any comments the would imply what you are claiming these women think when they see you.
Unveiled American women are not hated or feared or thought to be beneath Muslim women wearing the hijab. The only place way that could possibly come into play is in the case of women wearing very revealing clothing, which you say isn't the case with you, where I've heard comments along the lines of "I feel bad for women who have to spend their time trying to get male attention for their bodies rather than themselves." But I've heard that same comment from American women when a woman is dressed provocatively, so it's not a unique feeling of Muslim women towards non-Muslims.
These aren't crazy people. Wearing the hijab puts you in a very visible minority in this country. Women wearing it are too concerned with avoiding stares and attacks from ignorant a-holes to be worried about some random lady's wild hair.
@euterpe35: I'm a Muslim woman who covers but I don't think I can speak for other people. I don't usually give a rat's ass about what other women are wearing. I don't hate you, am not afraid of you and am not jealous of you either. (Unless they're wearing a tiny miniskirt and a thong and are using public transportation. the possibility of sitting on fecal matter is disturbing.)
I'll probably look if someone's wearing something wildly inappropriate maybe tsk tsk to myself.
My question is why would u even care what I think of your hair/clothing?
@thesciencegirl: You wrote "I'm not really clear why you think someone's choice of head covering reflects any thought about you whatsoever."
In an attempt to clarify, and it may fall flat:
I don't regularly assign malevolent attitudes to an entire group of people. I stated that I have a problem with the veil. I tried to explain that problem is because some (*some*) veiled women look at me like they hate me. And I wonder why that is. If I assumed "they all" had malevolence toward me, I think I'd be smart enough not to bring that up on Jezebel, and instead would be seeing a therapist.
Wearing a veil or other religious garb is an outward sign of one's beliefs. Saint Peter said women should cover their heads, his implication being that covering is an outward sign of their modesty and piety. Conversely, one would expect that Saint Peter, that old misogynist, would think a woman who doesn't cover is *not* modest and *not* pious, and thus to be reviled.
And thank you for asking for a Muslim opinion, I am interested to hear it.
@euterpe35: I think one of the problems here is projecting a proselytizing agenda to both Muslim and Orthodox women. As a non-Muslim/non-Orthodox woman, you aren't really *supposed* to wear a hijab or wig and I guarantee they aren't concerned with converting you. It might help to read up on the religious reasons why women cover themselves, it could alleviate many of your concerns. Knowledge is power!
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@euterpe35: ok, look, you sound like you're not actively trying to be offensive, but the things you're saying are coming across as prejudiced. The head covering may imply certain beliefs (or it may not -- everyone has their own reasons), but it's a big jump from a woman's ideas about her own level of modesty to the assumption that those ideals inspire her to fear or hate you for dressing differently. Which do you think is more likely -- that Muslim women wearing head coverings have unfriendly expressions on their faces because they hate you, a stranger, or that they regularly experience prejudice and judgement and even threats of violence and therefore walk around on their guard?
And my request for the official Muslim opinion was actually sarcasm.
@thesciencegirl: when you put it that way, it's very clarifying. It is more likely that whatever looks I think I'm getting are coming from a position of guardedness rather than of hatred.
and yes, well, there are probably as many official Muslim positions on this as there are Muslims. At any rate I was happy to get the input that was offered.
You wrote: "Women wearing it are too concerned with avoiding stares..."
This makes me think. I do tend to actually look at people In my line of view when I get on the bus, or a plane, or even an elevator.
So, perhaps my tendency to do this can be seen as confrontive. I think I can learn not to internalize the looks I get in return as coming from a religious attitude toward me.
I've gotten that reaction from Orthodox Jewish girls. And once I was waiting in line a long time behind a group when suddenly several men from their community arrived. The girls said, Let the men in front of us!, and moved to let them into the line ahead of us.
They looked shocked and disdainful when I objected.
@Seeräuber Jenny: Wow, I wonder why members of a group who are regularly insulted by strangers and given evil glares merely on account of their clothing choices might not look directly at you?
You may wish to recall that conventions re: eye contact and meaning differ greatly among cultural groups, too. And supplement that with a reading of Sherene Razack's 'Looking White People in the Eye', particularly her comments on the politics of the gaze and interracial power relations.
@euterpe35: I will side with you, insofar that when I see female docs in training where I work who are wearing headscarfs, I know this comes from their patriarchal religion, that their hair is their "glory" and they are basically no better than whores if they display their hair; and men would be driven mad with lust at the sight of it. Under Sharia, they could be stoned. And that women in Saudia Arabia, and where Sharia rules, are property. And that a female US fighter jet squadron leader in Saudia Arabia was not only not allowed to drive her own car, she was supposed to put on the full head to toe garb so the Saudis weren't "offended."
So when I see a woman in the headscarf, and I know that tradition, I know that I am an infidel to her; and when she treats a woman who is not wearing a head scarf and is an infidel, she must, as you say, pass a judgment. I would not go to my local Catholic hospital for a reproductive issue that involved or could be construed as anti-Catholic policy; I would not go, or let my female child go to a doctor who wears a symbol on the slavery of women by patriarchs, and all the brutality that goes with it--which is the ultimate subject here, I agree. It tells me that woman accepts that world view. It is true of any woman in a religion where they are unclean, servants, property, etc. and where women must conform to male expectations and demands.
It's a complicated issue and I really do support France in its move to keep secular life secular. To me, if your imaginary friend, God or Allah or whatever it is, will hate you or condemn you because you do not wear a scarf or a veil, then you and I have amazingly different world views. I won't trust you as a doctor, lawyer, or anything else because your religious view obviously comes first, beyond the larger society. To me it's no different, as one of my black friends said, than her walking down the street wearing a slave chain around her neck. The symbol represents a basic denial of human rights.
@Vidya108: Well, yes, but we live in a country that has no official religion; and in which you are expect to assimilate, insofar as observing larger norms. This is why Mormon polygamy was outlawed. Ditto the woman in Florida who wanted her Driver's Permit to have her pictured in that veil (seriously? She's going to drive in that?) The answer was No, you can't. Driving is a privilege, not a right. But there were howls of racism and anti-Islamic sentiment. In many states, like mine, you are not allowed to wear masks that obscure your face. This is back from the KKK days, I assume. If that's the law of the land, then give up your veil or go live in a friendly country that doesn't mind.
If you are in a country where eye contact is the norm, then you should not give offense to people by refusing to look at them, the same way, if you are in a country where the norm is minimal eye contact, that is what you do. You make it sound as though people just can't learn a new behavior, can't adapt to their surroundings or circumstances.
@thesciencegirl:
Ahem *pushes glasses further up her nose* you wanted an official response? Here's mine.
I absolutely, positively can not care any less about what you look like, what your hair looks like and how you dress. If you are however wearing something highly unusual --like a woman in a clown costume I saw taking the bus -- I will look because of my natural curiosity.
I don't want to pull the "my best friend is Black line" but my best friend does not wear the hijab and we have been BFF since childhood.
I am Turkish. I grew up in America. I went to a Catholic High School. Graduated from University of Wisconsin. And Now I live in Australia and I work in a public school library. I knit, I have a cat and I can touch my tongue to my nose. And I wear a hijab. It upsets me when someone looks at me and passes judgement on how I look when I know I am so much more than how I look walking down the street.
@Novaload Is Just Plain Novaload Agai: these are huge generalizations about the veil and it's purpose that have been borne purely out of ignorance on your part. i suggest you educate yourself a bit more before comparing it to a slave's chain. there is not much to even discuss until you put some research into this and realize that you cannot use one particular culture's (Saudi Arabia's Sharia religious behaviors) as the definition of all cultures that wear veils. This includes many western cultures, Indian cultures, African cultures, central Asian cultures, etc etc.
@euterpe35: I take you at your word and don't think you're racist.
I do think it's generally a bad idea to take personally the interactions we have with strangers, even when they SEEM to be directed at you.
Maybe the veiled lady on the bus hates YOU and your hair, and feels superior. Maybe she's got unruly hair beneath that veil and is feeling disgusted because she remembers her mother giving her a hard time about her hair. Maybe she's having a lousy day. Maybe she thinks your shirt is hideous.
So I grew up in a community near several Amish and Mennonite communities. Both women and men in those groups dress certain ways. And a lot of my friends growing up attended churches that didn't allow pants to be worn or knees/shoulders to be shown in church - or for some groups even in daily life. Mormons have a dress code, and I know Orthodox Jewish women dress a certain way, and some Catholic churches still ask women to cover their hair/shoulders. I know when I went to visit the Vatican I tried to make sure I wasn't wearing a spaghetti-strap tank top or anything, just in case. And in high school when I visited friends' conservative churches, even for softball games and picnics, I wore something knee-covering just to respect their tradition.
Western society seems to accept most of these customs (for others if not for ourselves) - but we get freaked out about hijab. What's up with that?
@Flackette Goes Retro: The Amish, by the way, have plenty of problems with mysogyny and abuse-- but they're white so they're sweet and quaint, and nobody makes a fuss of it. [www.legalaffairs.org]
@Everything MidnightBikeRide does is a balloon.: Ok, I read that whole Amish thing and feel completely sick. I've never read anything about that before but it's disgusting that it hasn't been given way more attention by the U.S. government.
Although I'm not crazy about imposed modesty restrictions to begin, with, the hijab goes beyond modesty and enters the area of obliterating the identity.
@Seeräuber Jenny: Agreed. And it's only becoming popular again with the rise of fundamentalist Islamic sects; the "revolution" that set things back, especially for women, for centuries. Ominous indeed.
I'd recommend a book called Dreams of Trespass: Tales Of A Harem Girlhood by Fatima Mernissi. I believe she is a well-known Muslim feminist and it's a wonderful book.
Although I have no idea what was being said in that trailer, it looked powerful. I would like to see this film (with subtitles).
I wonder if westerners focus so much on the veil because it's a visual difference that they can pinpoint, as a way to distance themselves from the things we have in common with the muslim world -- a sort of "your misogyny is worse than my misogyny" kind of thing. Women in the US may be abused, assaulted, raped, and discriminated against, but at least we don't make them wear scarves on their heads!
@thesciencegirl: I think that is part of it. One thing that bothers me about the "Poor women who have to wear the veil" camp is how it ignores that some women choose to wear the veil, and the reasons behind those choices.
@thesciencegirl: I don't know, it's so visual. When I started to question and rebel in many ways against the conservative Christian church of my youth, the first way that I started to realize all was not right was when people were continually asking me to cover my long legs. There was something inherently wrong in them. I was causing other people to sin because they had to see my sexiness. No, I wasn't causing anyone to sin, you idiots choose to look at me and make my 14 year old body sexy, I didn't. So, that was how I started questioning them. I realized it was about power. The men in control realized that they couldn't control their own reactions to me, a 14 year old and in someway this 14 year old was more powerful than them. They wanted to cover my power and control me. So, when I left, I started dressing how I damn well pleased and if it was hot outside, I wore shorts and short shorts. To me having to cover a part of your body to be pious reflects this. Maybe other women have different issues with it, but it brings up those feelings for me and western women have worked hard to be able to wear what they want to, so there's also this history of it. I don't know, maybe it's just cultural differences that we can't really bridge because of how different our cultures are from each other's. Anyway, if I had to cover again for religious reasons, especially to that extent, I would be very, very upset.
Disclaimer: I am not Muslim, so this may be way off base - if so, I welcome the chance to be educated. Anyway...
When I was in grad school at a certain east coast university, there were a lot of muslim women students who wore hijab. And very often that hijab was a Calvin Klein or Kate Spade or Hermes scarf. Fashionable, yes, but I always wondered if that was somehow missing the point of modesty - or perhaps I'm off base and it's only supposed to be about physical modesty, not material.
@Flackette Goes Retro: I am a former Muslim, and the answer is "It depends." There are some Muslims who believe that the point of the veil is to blend in and not call attention to yourself. Back when I veiled, there were Muslims (frequently men, of course) who would scold me for wearing a brightly colored scarf. They said I should wear black, because bright colors would draw attention to me and thus lead men to be tempted. So, for people who think that veiling is about making oneself unappealing/unnoticed, then yeah, brand name scarfs with conspicuous labels sort of negate the whole point.
On the other hand, some women do see the veil as a political statement as as a matter of identity, but not necessarily something that should make them as plain and dowdy as possible. Other women might veil because their family/society forces them to, so they wear bright veils to rebel. Obvs, since you were in the US, it was likely not being forced so much as wanting to be identified as a Muslim.
I actually knew a girl in college who wore the veil specifically for this reason. What was really odd is that she would occasionally go with her neck/decolletage exposed, but keep her hair covered. She explained that she wanted people to know she was Muslim, and that was that.
@blazedom: Okay, so heres a rough translation. I had trouble translating some of the colloquial terms, and couldn't make out some of the words. Hopefully someone else could add to it.
So, the female lead (the lady with the short haircut) is played by mona zaki.
Voice over: Hawaa (arabic name for eve). She is compassion, tenderness and (?? couldnt make this part out)
Mona zaki: I sometimes ask myself what we do with marriage
Man with cigar voice over: Help me please
Woman voice over : In order for a woman to stop being a virgin, a man must be present in her life.
Man : Do you know what a man looks like if his wife cheats on him?
2nd man yelling: I've never seen anything like this. This woman is insane.
Mona zaki voice over: I do everything I can so I don't upset you or your friends.
Woman voice over : I want someone to answer the written question.
Guy with the slipper: This country doesn't run this way.
Screaming woman: (???)
random clips, then
Mona zaki: under religious law, you may keep the baby, and the father is obligated to recognize it.
09/28/09
Why do we give a pass to Muslimas?
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ETA/Rework the wording a little.
If you are out and about and see the Duggars, in their dowdy skirts and crowning glory hairstyles, do you judge them as other? I do. Pentecostals of any stripe earn my liberal derision, because I'm a pagan bitch that way.
Hasidic Jews, for some reason, get a pass. The Amish are borderline, but they get a pass. And Muslimas get a pass. Old Catholic women? Check, they get one too.
You have to admit it's somewhat interesting, no?
09/28/09
And I think fundamentalists might be derided against more on Jezebel than other types/sects of religion b/c of their extremism, which affects our daily lives (for example, pro-lifers wanting to get rid of Roe vs. Wade). I think Hasidic Jews and the Amish get a past because they don't do anything that affects the majority in a palpable, vocal way. Same with Muslims wearing veils--that doesn't affect me. And of course, I am speaking from the perspective of an American... this may be different from Jezzies who are more familiar with these lifestyles or who live in other countries...
09/28/09
I truly appreciate your intellectual honesty.
Thank-you for that.
09/28/09
My thought is that as "liberals" we bend over backwards sometimes to prove that we're "better" than the Real Ammurrica who would castigate Muslims in particular because of their 9/11 prejudices.
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09/28/09
09/28/09
This pains me because of how the many Muslim friends I've had over the years have been judged for wearing the veil. Even just seeing how shocked some people are when they realize one hijab-wearing friend of mine listens to metal and wears combat boots under her long skirt fills me with disappointment. It's like they don't realize she is a person simply because of how she displays her faith.
Ok, I'm done.
09/28/09
So if it's good for the (Christmas?) goose, why isn't it good for the gander?
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hmmmm
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I think that Mrs. Sobh has to acknowledge that the Hijab is also a symbol. Presented under this angle, I wonder if Mrs Sobh would reiterate her "Big whoop".
Touchy subject though. But interesting nonetheless.
I do agree with her point though, all women are infinitely different and infinitely similar. Big whoops all around.
09/28/09
or the 'Chinoiserie' of the mid-late 19th Century.
09/28/09
First she addressed how women had to be in the back to pray. Coming from a Christian background, I thought "well women should be able to pray wherever they want". She made the joke, "We're here to pray. When we pray we get on our hands and knees and bend over. I honestly don't want some dirty old man staring at my butt."
Then she talked about the hijabs. Many of the mosques in the US are relatively liberal and women are only required to wear them when they are are there. However, women still choose to wear them here to express their cultural identity. I don't think of it any different than my Jewish friends who would wear a yarmulke around on holidays. You can't always say the same is true around the world, but around here 90% of Muslims I've met have had more liberal in the role of women.
09/28/09
Or more than that, the Orthodox Jewish women who are out there being perfectly normal members of the working world while wearing wigs, scarves, hats, or other head coverings.
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I have to look at things in context. Its not my beliefs or values, but it is hers. If she feels empowered to wear it, then so be it. Its only oppression if it is being forced. I went to a women's college and there were a number of Muslim students who chose to wear it and others who didn't. There certainly wasn't anyone at a Methodist women's college forcing them to. Their parents weren't forcing them to. Yet they made the decision to because they wanted to.
And personally, I don't think that there is anything oppressive about modesty if you want to go that route. As long as personal choice is involved and you're not being forced by some external force, then I don't think it counts.
09/28/09
09/28/09
Really? I think I'd get pretty distracted if I was presented with a row of men bending over. I've heard similar justifications for covering only women, and restricting the movement and action of only women, and it has never sat well with me. It makes women responsible for mens behavior, on top of their own, and it erases female sexual desire. In a patriarchal religious culture, men would never stand for impositions similar to those placed upon women.
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09/04/09
It's a complicated issue, for certain, and sometimes I wish I lived in a society as secular as France or Belgium, but I don't think it's helpful for anyone to forbid girls to come to school with the scarfs on.
09/04/09
09/04/09
This actually sounds almost like a movie cliché. The hero always has to be "accidental."
09/04/09
Here's what bothers me about the veil: When I see women wearing the veil, I get the distinct impression from them that they consider me unclean and horrible for not wearing one. As if their facial expressions convey "you are dirty and beneath me. I am a pious woman of G-d and you are an unkempt heathen"
I also get this impression from women in Conservative Christian or Christian Orthodox garb, and from some Orthodox Jewish women in their extremely modest clothing and wigs.
As if my running around with my wild, thick, exposed and untamed hair is a personal affront to them. I dress rather conservatively, but my hair has a life of it's own. Some veiled and/or wigged women just make me feel uncomfortable being myself around them.
Granted, I could be misinterpreting their facial expressions. It could be they are just expecting me to hate them and put on the "bitch" face at me in order to defend themselves.
I could give specific examples, but there's just too many to note.
I live in Seattle, and take public transportation everywhere. Most of the nasty looks I've received in this context are from other bus riders.
09/04/09
I also don't trust any statements that begin, "I'm not a racist, but..."
09/04/09
However, I didn't say "I'm not a racist, but...". I said "I'm not a racist, and I'm not religious, at all."
My statements (the ones you don't trust) come straight from my heart. Whether or not you trust them doesn't invalidate them, something I think you understand when you note that you haven't lived my experience.
I am a human, complete with all the foibles and failings of one, and I'm open to being educated.
I'd really welcome a Muslim woman's - or an Orthodox Jewish woman's - perspective on my experience. Am I (and other unveiled American women) hated and feared by them? Or not? And why? or why not?
09/04/09
In general, I don't assume that the expression that a stranger on the bus is wearing has anything to do with me. I am simply not important enough for strangers to completely focus their thoughts on me and rearrange their faces to convey their judgment. It seems narcissistic to imagine otherwise. They have their own lives to think about.
09/04/09
*Addresses the room*: Um, ladies? Is there a Muslim woman representative around? Can we get an official response please?
09/04/09
Unveiled American women are not hated or feared or thought to be beneath Muslim women wearing the hijab. The only place way that could possibly come into play is in the case of women wearing very revealing clothing, which you say isn't the case with you, where I've heard comments along the lines of "I feel bad for women who have to spend their time trying to get male attention for their bodies rather than themselves." But I've heard that same comment from American women when a woman is dressed provocatively, so it's not a unique feeling of Muslim women towards non-Muslims.
These aren't crazy people. Wearing the hijab puts you in a very visible minority in this country. Women wearing it are too concerned with avoiding stares and attacks from ignorant a-holes to be worried about some random lady's wild hair.
09/04/09
I'll probably look if someone's wearing something wildly inappropriate maybe tsk tsk to myself.
My question is why would u even care what I think of your hair/clothing?
09/04/09
In an attempt to clarify, and it may fall flat:
I don't regularly assign malevolent attitudes to an entire group of people. I stated that I have a problem with the veil. I tried to explain that problem is because some (*some*) veiled women look at me like they hate me. And I wonder why that is. If I assumed "they all" had malevolence toward me, I think I'd be smart enough not to bring that up on Jezebel, and instead would be seeing a therapist.
Wearing a veil or other religious garb is an outward sign of one's beliefs. Saint Peter said women should cover their heads, his implication being that covering is an outward sign of their modesty and piety. Conversely, one would expect that Saint Peter, that old misogynist, would think a woman who doesn't cover is *not* modest and *not* pious, and thus to be reviled.
And thank you for asking for a Muslim opinion, I am interested to hear it.
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And my request for the official Muslim opinion was actually sarcasm.
09/04/09
and yes, well, there are probably as many official Muslim positions on this as there are Muslims. At any rate I was happy to get the input that was offered.
09/04/09
09/04/09
You wrote: "Women wearing it are too concerned with avoiding stares..."
This makes me think. I do tend to actually look at people In my line of view when I get on the bus, or a plane, or even an elevator.
So, perhaps my tendency to do this can be seen as confrontive. I think I can learn not to internalize the looks I get in return as coming from a religious attitude toward me.
09/04/09
I've gotten that reaction from Orthodox Jewish girls. And once I was waiting in line a long time behind a group when suddenly several men from their community arrived. The girls said, Let the men in front of us!, and moved to let them into the line ahead of us.
They looked shocked and disdainful when I objected.
09/04/09
I wonder what their children are learning about living in a diverse democracy.
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09/04/09
You may wish to recall that conventions re: eye contact and meaning differ greatly among cultural groups, too. And supplement that with a reading of Sherene Razack's 'Looking White People in the Eye', particularly her comments on the politics of the gaze and interracial power relations.
09/05/09
So when I see a woman in the headscarf, and I know that tradition, I know that I am an infidel to her; and when she treats a woman who is not wearing a head scarf and is an infidel, she must, as you say, pass a judgment. I would not go to my local Catholic hospital for a reproductive issue that involved or could be construed as anti-Catholic policy; I would not go, or let my female child go to a doctor who wears a symbol on the slavery of women by patriarchs, and all the brutality that goes with it--which is the ultimate subject here, I agree. It tells me that woman accepts that world view. It is true of any woman in a religion where they are unclean, servants, property, etc. and where women must conform to male expectations and demands.
It's a complicated issue and I really do support France in its move to keep secular life secular. To me, if your imaginary friend, God or Allah or whatever it is, will hate you or condemn you because you do not wear a scarf or a veil, then you and I have amazingly different world views. I won't trust you as a doctor, lawyer, or anything else because your religious view obviously comes first, beyond the larger society. To me it's no different, as one of my black friends said, than her walking down the street wearing a slave chain around her neck. The symbol represents a basic denial of human rights.
09/05/09
If you are in a country where eye contact is the norm, then you should not give offense to people by refusing to look at them, the same way, if you are in a country where the norm is minimal eye contact, that is what you do. You make it sound as though people just can't learn a new behavior, can't adapt to their surroundings or circumstances.
09/05/09
Ahem *pushes glasses further up her nose* you wanted an official response? Here's mine.
I absolutely, positively can not care any less about what you look like, what your hair looks like and how you dress. If you are however wearing something highly unusual --like a woman in a clown costume I saw taking the bus -- I will look because of my natural curiosity.
I don't want to pull the "my best friend is Black line" but my best friend does not wear the hijab and we have been BFF since childhood.
I am Turkish. I grew up in America. I went to a Catholic High School. Graduated from University of Wisconsin. And Now I live in Australia and I work in a public school library. I knit, I have a cat and I can touch my tongue to my nose. And I wear a hijab. It upsets me when someone looks at me and passes judgement on how I look when I know I am so much more than how I look walking down the street.
09/05/09
09/05/09
I do think it's generally a bad idea to take personally the interactions we have with strangers, even when they SEEM to be directed at you.
Maybe the veiled lady on the bus hates YOU and your hair, and feels superior. Maybe she's got unruly hair beneath that veil and is feeling disgusted because she remembers her mother giving her a hard time about her hair. Maybe she's having a lousy day. Maybe she thinks your shirt is hideous.
Whatevs. Either way, it's NOT about YOU.
09/04/09
Western society seems to accept most of these customs (for others if not for ourselves) - but we get freaked out about hijab. What's up with that?
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[www.legalaffairs.org]
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Although I'm not crazy about imposed modesty restrictions to begin, with, the hijab goes beyond modesty and enters the area of obliterating the identity.
09/05/09
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I wonder if westerners focus so much on the veil because it's a visual difference that they can pinpoint, as a way to distance themselves from the things we have in common with the muslim world -- a sort of "your misogyny is worse than my misogyny" kind of thing. Women in the US may be abused, assaulted, raped, and discriminated against, but at least we don't make them wear scarves on their heads!
09/04/09
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When I was in grad school at a certain east coast university, there were a lot of muslim women students who wore hijab. And very often that hijab was a Calvin Klein or Kate Spade or Hermes scarf. Fashionable, yes, but I always wondered if that was somehow missing the point of modesty - or perhaps I'm off base and it's only supposed to be about physical modesty, not material.
09/04/09
On the other hand, some women do see the veil as a political statement as as a matter of identity, but not necessarily something that should make them as plain and dowdy as possible. Other women might veil because their family/society forces them to, so they wear bright veils to rebel. Obvs, since you were in the US, it was likely not being forced so much as wanting to be identified as a Muslim.
I actually knew a girl in college who wore the veil specifically for this reason. What was really odd is that she would occasionally go with her neck/decolletage exposed, but keep her hair covered. She explained that she wanted people to know she was Muslim, and that was that.
09/04/09
09/04/09
So, the female lead (the lady with the short haircut) is played by mona zaki.
Voice over: Hawaa (arabic name for eve). She is compassion, tenderness and (?? couldnt make this part out)
Mona zaki: I sometimes ask myself what we do with marriage
Man with cigar voice over: Help me please
Woman voice over : In order for a woman to stop being a virgin, a man must be present in her life.
Man : Do you know what a man looks like if his wife cheats on him?
2nd man yelling: I've never seen anything like this. This woman is insane.
Mona zaki voice over: I do everything I can so I don't upset you or your friends.
Woman voice over : I want someone to answer the written question.
Guy with the slipper: This country doesn't run this way.
Screaming woman: (???)
random clips, then
Mona zaki: under religious law, you may keep the baby, and the father is obligated to recognize it.
Woman talking to man: what exactly do you want?
and then more random clips.
09/04/09