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Ms. Manners
How To Talk To A McCain Voter Without Gloating

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Hana Maru
01/13/09

In reply to Ms. Manners
Abraham Lincoln:

"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. "

I'm sorry, but saying privately that he's a feminist doesn't mean he didn't utilize misogyny as a winning campaign strategy. It doesn't mean that he didn't retain Jon Favreau, who would have been fired from many less important jobs for sexual harassment. It doesn't mean that he hasn't ignored the outcry against Rick Warren, who has said that abused women have no right to leave their husbands and pro-choice people are like the Nazis. It doesn't mean that Obama didn't say that we should roll back the mental health exemption for late-term abortions. It doesn't mean that he has done one thing that would require him to stick his neck out and represent feminists/progressives.

Smeal herself says that we need to speak out and hold his feet to the fire. To bad Ms. hasn't done that at all up to now. Again, saying it doesn't make it so. I wish more folks here wanted to do that, instead of relying on their faith.

The pervasive culture among his supporters has been to insist that sexism isn't sexism when it comes from him and any criticism of him is ruining feminism. The cover looks to me like it was done with similar reasoning. That's why Smeal explains it with a mention of his approval rating; it's a bid to stay relevant.
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SisterMaryMartha
01/13/09

In reply to Ms. Manners
Oh wait, side note: I think is why I had a Prince song in my head while walking to work.
Which was, "This it what it sounds like, when doves cry" and as soon as I saw this cover again, I started singing that line.
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nex0s
01/13/09

In reply to Ms. Manners
Cannot. Read. Comments. On. HuffPo.

Ugh. Everyone's already bitching that he's not feminist enough and that he ONCE called a reporter "Sweetie".

Personally, I like to call men "Sweet Cheeks". It throws them off guard!
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yvanehtnioj
01/13/09

@nex0s: You don't think it's a big deal that he called a reporter "Sweetie"?
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Gundam_Halo
01/13/09

@nex0s: Actually you can substitute some of the discussions here with the ones at HuffPo, you won't tell the difference.
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Samanthrax
01/13/09

@Gundam_Halo: What an uncalled for response- people are going to have opinions that differ from yours. It's okay.
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PilgrimSoul
01/13/09

@Gundam_Halo: Ah, the old pot and kettle conundrum.
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yvanehtnioj
01/13/09

In reply to Ms. Manners
She doesn't even address the picture, the photoshopped Superman pose, and all those implications. She acts like it's just a picture of him in a "This is what a feminist looks like" shirt (which actually would have been cool, as he would have had to put one on, and in so doing make a public statment). I feel like this dodges the question rather than answers it.
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bluebears
01/13/09

@yvanehtnioj: omg. great point. i would like this cover so much more if he was actually wearing that t-shirt not photo-shopped into it.
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SisterMaryMartha
01/13/09

In reply to Ms. Manners
Bwahhahaha.
I am going to just chuckle and come back to this thread tonight, with a glass of wine in hand.

Have fun, kids.
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PilgrimSoul
01/13/09

In reply to Ms. Manners
Hopefully those annoying feminists will shut it now about women's rights! Obama to save us all from ourselves, film at 11!
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PilgrimSoul
01/13/09

In reply to Ms. Manners
Bully for him.
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bluebears
01/13/09

In reply to Ms. Manners
Listen, I don't have a problem with this cover. BUT! let me just say that Obama privately declaring to the editors of Ms. that he is a feminist is nice but what about a little more of a public declaration?
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PilgrimSoul
01/13/09

@bluebears: WHY DO YOU HATE OBAMA HAVEN'T YOU NOTICED HOW HOT HE IS?
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bluebears
01/13/09

@PilgrimSoul: i know, i know. i'm just an angry bitter feminist ruining it for all the other women out there with my nitpicking. don't think I don't hate myself.
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sportz.star
01/13/09

@bluebears: I'm more looking to see him do/propose things that are good for women - which I fully expect him to do. What he calls himself, publicly or privately, don't care. I somewhat think that making any sort of deal of announcing he's a feminist would be unproductive. Just do stuff that allows us to realize you are, don't go around shouting about being one.
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bluebears
01/13/09

@sportz.star: I agree that actions speak louder than words. but the word "feminist" and by extension a whole movement has been so demonized over the years that yeah, I think the POTUS publicly stating he considers himself a feminist would make a difference. because all feminist SHOULD mean, is supporting equal rights for women, and unfortunately its come to mean all sorts of unappealing things. so i really think we need to take back that word, and he could help with that. /gets off soapbox.
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sportz.star
01/13/09

@bluebears: I hear you. You can stay on your soapbox if you like. That IS all feminism should mean. I hate the word because I went to a women's college where I was not feminist enough. I feel the term's been co-opted in a bad way by extremists. It doesn't need to be, though, you're right.
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PilgrimSoul
01/13/09

@sportz.star: you mean, by like, hairy-legged bulldykes and stuff?
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sportz.star
01/13/09

@PilgrimSoul: No, like I don't support what Title IX looks like today and the implications it has for mens sports, I don't think I've ever been oppressed or discriminated against and refuse to think or act as such, and I'm opposed to affirmative action for women, always have been. That's what I mean.
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PilgrimSoul
01/13/09

@sportz.star: Excellent. Well, so long as we're all in agreement that the plight of womanity boils down your experience, allow me to ask you this - what "implications" does Title IX have for "men's sports"?
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Hana Maru
01/13/09

@PilgrimSoul: Every gain for women is a loss for men, didn't ya know? Or are you one of those extremists who wants parity?
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sportz.star
01/13/09

@PilgrimSoul: First of all, I didn't say that the plight of womanity boils down to my experience, I said that was one of my personal reasons for not calling myself a feminist.

Regardless, at many smaller schools, particularly those that try and run football programs (which are far more equipment intensive than most - if not all - women's sports) sports such as wrestling or crew or men's gymnastics get cut so that the number of women particicpating and the funding given to women's sports is more on par with the men's sports at these schools. This is often done regardless of the interest in participating in any given sport within the student body. While Title IX did wonderful things to open sports up to women, it's now more often used to shut down sports for men because of quota-like requirements. That's not the purpose.
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Jessi Ramsey
01/13/09

@PilgrimSoul:

I see a few spaces have been filled!
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PilgrimSoul
01/13/09

@sportz.star: So, okay, allow me to correct: your personal experience means that you cannot identify yourself by a term that means being in favour of other women enjoying your same "feeling"?

Ah yes, the old "Dear God, what about the men?" question. Nothing seems to concern people who claim there is no such thing as gender-based oppression so much as the Plight of the Modern Dude. The men seem to be doing just fine, thanks. Participation in sports, last time I checked, is not a human right. Equality of treatment under the law is, however.
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Jessi Ramsey
01/13/09

@sportz.star: Where are you getting this information from?
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PilgrimSoul
01/13/09

@Jessi Ramsey: dude, these should be required reading.
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Hana Maru
01/13/09

@sportz.star: So having access to a wide array of school sports is a right for men but not for women? Should it be a privilege for women? Like back in the day when women were only allowed to cheerlead and the men had even more funding? I'm going to have to agree with the mean girls that being against gender equality makes you not feminist enough.
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sportz.star
01/13/09

@Jessi Ramsey: I always assumed that was pretty widely known, but I work in sports. Here's some links I found after a quick search:
[www.athleticscholarships.net]
[media.www.udreview.com]
[www.academia.org]

@PilgrimSoul: I personally wouldn't argue for equality under the law in all venues. Women are different. We can get pregnant (a very key example) and I don't think the law should treat pregnancy as it does - either under current US health care or employment policy. Women may need accommodations that men don't. Equality under the law is also one thing, in practice it's an entirely different animal.

And no, sports is not a right, it's a privilege. But, it also happens to be my field and things that occur within sports are often microcosms of larger society, as such I tend to look at things through the lens of what I know best.
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Jessi Ramsey
01/13/09

@sportz.star: All three of those articles completely ignore history and facts.

And if a website is being praised by Dinesh D'Souza, you know it is 100% sexist.
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sportz.star
01/13/09

@Jessi Ramsey: Oh good, I'm so glad the facts are wrong. Please tell that to the organizations I represent that are losing athlete talent pools (and therefore sponsor money and USOC money that is tied to Olympic success) as schools cut sports programs in Olympic sports like wrestling, gymnastics and other smaller sports like fencing to comply with Title IX. My clients will be thrilled to know that their sports' dwindling numbers have nothing to do with the shrinking number of collegiate programs.
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PilgrimSoul
01/13/09

@sportz.star: oh lord. but we're not talking about pregnancy here, unless there are some pregnant wrestlers edging out poor discriminated-against male athletes somewhere in the world, and if so, you should send THAT tip into Jez.
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PilgrimSoul
01/13/09

@sportz.star: Are these clients of yours supporters of equality in some way I'm not aware of? Is there some reason beyond general squeamishness about girls they couldn't invest in the talent pools being generated on that side of the fence?

I mean, seriously.
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Jessi Ramsey
01/13/09

@sportz.star: If you have the facts to back that this is because of Title IX then you should show it but the links you provide are biased and twisting history in their favor. When I looked up the examples that were cited, the majority of them were a male athlete deduced his athletic team was cut because of quotas. Or after an extensive search, claims in the articles could not be backed up. All of it reads like those people who sue law schools and other universities because they assume they didn't get because of "racial quotas."
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Jessi Ramsey
01/13/09

@Jessi Ramsey: Also, I'm not denying sports programs are being cut across the country but the ones you specify--fencing, crew,gymnastics--are expensive to begin with and not even offered at most HS school districts. There are other possible reasons for cuts instead of blaming IX.
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sportz.star
01/13/09

@PilgrimSoul: That's just not the way sports have been structured in the US - universities have historically been where sports reside. Trust me, I know many folks who would love it that were not the case. And yes, the sports I work with are actively pursuing athletes, male and female to fill their rosters and grow their ranks. There's no sqeamishness whatsoever about girls. They want athletic talented girls wherever they can find them. But when sports get cut from schools, and talent becomes hard to find, Olympic medals are harder to come by and then money gets more and more scarce.

I guess in all things I dislike seeing cuts for men in the name of advancing women. I don't see why proportionality is a inherent good. Create opportunitites, perhaps with little bits of money, and then really fund where there is interest.
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Jenloveshercurves
01/13/09

@sportz.star: I think that we should be asking, "Why is football funded above other sports?" Football is expensive, dangerous and encourages universities to allow students to come to attend that they know will not be successful and that they have no intention of giving the support to so that they can be successful. When you see universities compromising education to fill football teams, I see failure. Many universities are closing down football programs because the benefits are greatly out-weighed by the detriments. But hey, college football is one of our national past-times! I feel that the NFL should be helping out college football teams if they insist on using that as their minor league. Donations to the NCAA or to scholarship funds or to the programs themselves? I think that would be a good idea.
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whynotshesaid
01/14/09

@sportz.star: I hate that I am so late to this, but the problem isn't with Title IX. The problem is with schools that dedicate far too many of their resources to "prestige" sports like football and basketball. For instance, most football teams will have far more players than actually see any time on the field. Why is that so? Why not just cut the football team from 80 players to 60 players so you can have men's wrestling?

I'm an athlete too, and I've also done my research on this. The problem isn't with Title IX; the problem is with bloated sports programs.
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whynotshesaid
01/14/09

@Jenloveshercurves: THIS, FTW. These programs should totally be slashing their football programs. I mean, most of them aren't even Division I. Why not focus on the sports you know you can excel at instead of trying to keep up with the OUs and the Floridas of the world?
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Cafezinha
01/13/09

In reply to Ms. Manners
I'd like a desktop sized version of that Ms. cover. It is excellent.
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sportz.star
01/13/09

In reply to Ms. Manners
No blank checks indeed. Presidents have too many issues on their plate for us to assume that he'll live up to all that we, and probably even he, wants to accomplish. Feet to the fire! Organize!
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pureblarney
01/13/09

In reply to Ms. Manners
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy.

January 20 cannot come soon enough.
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Sukie in the Graveyard
01/13/09

@pureblarney: ONE.WEEK.
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Samanthrax
01/13/09

In reply to Ms. Manners
Again, because he treats women like um... equal beings? Amazing!

I can't decide if it's a good thing that we celebrate what should be basic decent behavior, or encouraging lacklustre behavior.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
01/13/09

@Samanthrax: What do you do when potty-training a child? You make a BIG DEAL about them using the potty like a big kid! Sure, most of us do it multiple times a day now, but we all learned that it was expected of us by positive reinforcement.

This is how we have to reach out to anyone who hasn't gotten the Women are People memo...any time they grant someone basic human rights, we cheer!
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Samanthrax
01/13/09

@Mkp-hearts-NYC: This child is going to be shitting their pants forever.
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anonymiss
01/13/09

@Samanthrax: thats like men who think they deserve praise and accolades for providing for their children and being a part of their lives. on one hand, theyre doing great things, but on the other, do they deserve a cookie for actually accepting their responsibilities?

that said, i think we should celebrate decent behavior because people who behave decently seem to be in the minority, sadly.
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Gundam_Halo
01/13/09

@Samanthrax: It's much more than that -- Obama has spoken on sex education, and has spoken on the availability of protection, and has stated that his team will review Bush's executive orders...this is the first time in 8 years that these topics aren't being approached by a religious, neo-conservative viewpoint, which is making people excited about the possibilities that can come from this.
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Samanthrax
01/13/09

@anonymiss: Yes, like that. Exactly.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
01/13/09

@anonymiss: I think for people for whom accepting their responsibilities has been a challenge...celebrating it is the only way to go. Even if it's basic behavior for most folks, anybody who's fought an uphill battle against their baser nature needs encouragement. And it's not like there's a shortage of it to go 'round.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
01/13/09

@Samanthrax: I prefer to look at it as a large population of children. At some point /everybody/ grows up.
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Samanthrax
01/13/09

@Gundam_Halo: These are not just women's issues, though. We always seem to carry these as our sole responsibility, and they aren't.
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Mama Penguino
01/13/09

@anonymiss: Have you seen the Chris Rock routine based on this idea? He talks about men who pay their child support. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PAY IT, IDIOT! It's not like you're doing something special! He talks about men who say they've never been to jail. YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO GO TO JAIL! It's not like you've done something special by avoiding it!
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Gundam_Halo
01/13/09

@Samanthrax: Yeah, I was using generic examples, the point still being that people are excited that the office of the president is finally shifting from the stubborn, religious neo-conservative viewpoint.
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PilgrimSoul
01/13/09

@Mama Penguino: I feel like you have missed a fact clearly central to this conversation. Obama is Jesus. He doesn't have to say the right things or even do them - WE JUST KNOW HE THINKS THEM BECAUSE THE SUN SO CLEARLY SHINES FROM HIS ASS.
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Samanthrax
01/13/09

@Gundam_Halo: Riiiight, I get that, but that doesn't make him a feminist. Sorry.
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anonymiss
01/13/09

@Samanthrax: this is pure curiosity, not snark, but what would he have to do to be considered a feminist?
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Jessi Ramsey
01/13/09

@Mama Penguino: Which I believe is where the widespread use of "You want a cookie" comes from.
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Gundam_Halo
01/13/09

@Samanthrax: I'm not arguing that, the last Ms. thread proved that no matter what Obama does, he won't be considered feminist, ever.
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yvanehtnioj
01/13/09

@Gundam_Halo: No way. People were saying that "feminist" isn't the same as "not abusive" or "decent human" or even "Democrat." It's not the same as saying that he won't be considered one, ever, or that he can't. Just that it's not an honorary title given to him b/c he's the God Of All Things right now.
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Jessi Ramsey
01/13/09

@Gundam_Halo: No one in that thread say that. The consensus of some was that for a man to be a feminist he also has to take on the challenges of always checking and deconstructing his male privilege. When he called small and yappy dogs "girly", did he take a few steps back, unpack his knapsack of privilege and access why he associates small dogs who speak a lot with women?

Just because he has pro-women platforms does not mean he gets to be superman for doing what he should be doing in the first place.
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Gundam_Halo
01/13/09

@Jessi Ramsey: When did he do that? I haven't heard of that before.
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Samanthrax
01/13/09

@anonymiss:

I can't begin to answer that question right now. I think the word 'feminist' is kind of... a misused term. I'm not saying he isn't pro-female, I'm saying that... I don't really think men can be feminists.

This is as coherent as I can be right now. Sorry.

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Jessi Ramsey
01/13/09

@Gundam_Halo: [www.huffingtonpost.com]
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Hana Maru
01/13/09

@Gundam_Halo: How nice and simple your worldview is! It's just a shame it's unsupported by mean ol' reality!
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Gundam_Halo
01/13/09

@HanaMaru: I'm not sure what this is referring to.
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Jenloveshercurves
01/13/09

@Samanthrax: And honestly, it's not very coherent. If you can't say why he is not a feminist or what a man would have to do to be a feminist you really don't have a platform to stand on. Examples are needed and a better explaination as to why men can't be part of the movement.
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Hana Maru
01/13/09

@Gundam_Halo: "the last Ms. thread proved that no matter what Obama does, he won't be considered feminist, ever. "

Deductive reasoning, ur doin it rong.
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Samanthrax
01/13/09

@Jenloveshercurves: Ummm... I know it isn't coherent, which is why I myself said it wasn't coherent? So thanks for that. Morely, I never said men couldn't be part of the movement. You can be part of the movement and not be what I define as a feminist. By the way, this is my opinion on the definition of a word, and not the abilities of him as President.
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Jenloveshercurves
01/13/09

@Samanthrax: That's your opinion, but it is an opinion on men and feminism that I find limiting, insulting and closed-minded. Working with many men who are more active in the women's movement than many women who define themselves as "feminists" and who challenge me on a daily basis on what I say and do and how that contributes to patriachy, I find the idea that these men who work toward equality to not be feminists really distasteful. You're somehow saying, nope, no matter what you do, you can never be part of my club. If that's your feminism, fine, but it's not a club I want to be a part of.
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Samanthrax
01/14/09

@Jenloveshercurves: That's not what I'm saying. I never said there are men who haven't helped women make great strides. They can be part of the club, but I won't be calling them feminists.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
01/13/09

In reply to Ms. Manners
Great response, Ms.... I like the line about not giving him a blank check - he has to mobilize and get shit done.

Also, for all the worry about this man being the voice of a feminist platform... Feminist Karen Kornbluh, the platform's principle author, ensured women's rights, opportunities, advancement, and issues were addressed throughout the historic document.

Behind every feminist platform there's a great woman :D
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Jack_Burton
11/05/08

In reply to How To Talk To A McCain Voter Without Gloating
I just say:

[youlose.ytmnd.com]
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mariamariamaria
11/06/08

@2pint: HAHAHA!
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mariamariamaria
11/05/08

In reply to How To Talk To A McCain Voter Without Gloating
In my joy, I've apparently lost the ability to spell, lol! Make that "THE SMART GUY WON"!!!
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