I remain shocked at some of the jaw-smackingly obtuse assumptions in the "Women need to be assertive and ask for things" idea, namely that women are somehow unable to grasp social and workplace dynamics and how things are, or that they have no idea how to come up with a framework of risk.
Seriously, one could ask their husband to do more domestic labor so that they can do better at corporate life. What if he says no, or does a deliberately crappy job and blames it on his possession of testicles? What if he does it for a month and then is like, "now it's your turn" (to do 90% of the work instead of the 75% you did for a month)? If you get rid of him, you get lectured by well-meaning people about how THEY came up with a super-easy system of asking and now their husband does "almost half" of the work, they have great sex three times a week now, and little Madison is going to private school and they're getting a housekeeper with the money they earned from Special Snowflake's Simple Method of Just Asking, and anyone who can't master Special Snowflake's Simple Method isn't *really* a feminist, but a "victim" who revels in it and probably hates her husband for being fun and more successful.
Yeah, I don't know why women wouldn't be assertive and ask for things when the above path is not just possible, but likely. Oh, wait... #joannelipman
With feminist articles and responses like this, I feel like women are actually trying not to understand each other. The original article was not as coherent and through as it could have been, but it really wasn't so bad. That sense of humor bit that people are criticizing? Her Martha Stewart example showed that she meant a sense of humor about life, not about misogyny.
Pogrebin's response is what I don't like. "Paradoxically, she confesses that she both 'took equality for granted' and 'looked derisively at the women’s liberation movement,' whose rebels and activists she dismisses with the hoary stereotype, 'strident, humorless, shrill women.'" - Um, there's not actually anything paradoxical about this. This is how many young women think of feminism. The lives of younger feminists are very different from those of older feminists; could we at least make some effort to understand where the other group is coming from? #joannelipman
@jenji: I'm approving this comment sort of guardedly because while I believe you are making this comment in good faith I can see this going somewhere bad. Don't kill me mods.
What I think is important to note here is that (a) how younger women "think of feminism" may be of historical interest, but philosophically it's not really that interesting a question - if what younger women think is an inaccurate description of what older feminists themselves, then no, I don't really know that the older feminists owe younger ones a duty of understanding when they are themselves being unfairly characterized; (b) it is, in general, my experienced that even those young feminists who cling to wave terminology and generational divide tend to be among the least informed about the history of feminism. We think our arguments are new, but the movement has been having them for forty years or more, which almost anyone could figure out by, y'know, actually reading some feminism.
I'm a young-ish woman, but it chaps my ass that younger women tend to be so obviously eager, like immature teenagers, to be iconoclastic about a feminist history they obviously barely understand. #joannelipman
@PilgrimSoul: I'm annoyed that she got a forum like the NYT to publish her adolescent musings on reinventing feminism. And I'm 21. I feel like most women who "discover" feminism mostly on their own (without taking classes in history and theory and/or without being raised on the ideology) go through this "awkward phase", so to speak. They make tone-deaf statements and draw numbskulled conclusions, much like, well, teenagers. Eventually they will realize that their experience is not unique or special.
Or maybe I'm reaching because this woman sounds like me at 15. #joannelipman
@PilgrimSoul: Yeah, you're right that it's not so hard to educate oneself about feminism. Since I can't argue with that, I looked back at Lipman's article to try and defend her, but it's kind of worse than I remembered. I really do think her points are being misunderstood, but her writing is so unclear that the misunderstanding is really Lipman's fault anyway.
I maintain that there's no paradox, and the misuse just kills me. #joannelipman
@jenji: Honestly, I'm tired of trying to make an effort to understand where others are coming from when they seem incapable of doing the same for me. #joannelipman
"Hey! I have a new idea! Women need to be assertive and ask for things!" is the feminist equivalent of "You know, sizes were different in the 1950's." #joannelipman
I have asked for both raises and promotions, and in some cases have gotten them, and in some cases have not. But sadly, it was only after threatening to involve the EEOC in an equal pay issue that my admittedly misogynistic boss took my vagina seriously. Women can be raised to know their worth, understand their abilities, and assert themselves as equals, but it will not be until men are raised to value equality that Equal Rights will be a true reality. #joannelipman
While I generally agree with Pogrebin and I understand her frustration with the article, I don't think Lippman's disrespect for old guard feminism is the heart of the issue.
I think the post yesterday was much more in tune with the problematic nature of the piece. And it's a little less knee-jerk rebuttal and more of a measured analysis. I would nominate Anna to write a letter to the editor but writing letters every time the NYT published something obnoxious or ridiculous would probably be a full time job in and of itself. #joannelipman
I never understood why other people thought I should find misogyny so amusing....I have a sense of humor. It goes hand in hand with my strong sense of self-worth which stops me from laughing at people belittling me. #joannelipman
I'm amazed at how many of you bristle at being called "Ma'am" It's the analogue to "Sir" I'm happy to be an adult woman. That's what it means to me. #mrs
@Hana Maru: I like "madam" but not ma'am. When people say Madam, they usually mean it. When I hear Ma'am, I often wonder if its infused with irony or prejudice. Sometimes I just can't tell.
Hmmm I'm confused. I see a lot of Jezzies don't like to be called Miss but rather as Ms. But aren't they pronounced and mean the (essentially) same thing? #mrs
I'm a Ms. Mygivenname, and my attitude is similar to hers. I always used Ms. for myself, since before I was married. On the rare occasions that someone calls my Mrs. Hisname, or Miss, I don't usually correct them. They're being polite, I know.
The choice to change or keep one's name or title is not a free one. This is amply evident when women say things like "I took my husband's name because I want our family to have the same name" or "I just don't like my family name" or "I wasn't attached to my name, but he was to his"
We are trained from girlhood to think of our family name as temporary, belonging to our fathers, not really ours, while boys are taught full ownership of theirs. They grow up expecting to keep their name and give their name to all members of their new family as the symbolic head of the household. We are not free when the vast majority of women choose their choice to take their husband's name upon marriage. There are so many more egalitarian options available. #mrs
@Hana Maru: When I got married, I didn't even think twice about changing my name. I didn't even question it or consider keeping my own name. I'm pretty pissed off at myself for that one... #mrs
so mr. rex and i are doing the legal paperwork for marriage in january (with a wedding for family and friends to follow later int he year) and i'm 100% keeping my last name. its actually my mother's maiden name, which i took because her parents pretty much raised me and i wanted their name on my diploma when i graduated college. so it was never even an option for me to change it again and mr. rex never expected me to.
the problem, however, is that my mother is absolutely LIVID that i'm not taking his last name. she has said "well then why even bother getting married?" and many other ignorant/hurtful things about it and now we just don't even discuss it. but its so bad that she won't help me with wedding planning at all because she thinks i'm not serious about the marriage simply because i'm retaining my last name. (the irony here is that she is on marriage #4 and has changed her name every time, as though that is some sort of guarantee of marital success)
i guess i just want to know if any other jezzies have had a similar problem. i'd love to know how you worked it out. thanks! #mrs
@cantankasaurus rex: Oh! That sucks that you're going through that with your mom.
I would ask her why your future husband(or any of her husbands) would bother marrying if they're just going to keep their name!
I had a little trouble from my MIL. She saw my driver's license and she thought I just hadn't changed it over yet. I said something like "No, neither of us decided to change our name when we got married" She looked confused for a moment, then laughed, then she got it. I actually did something similar, some years before to convince my mom to not take her second husband's name.
It's amazing how many people have turned around because they never before thought about how unequal it is for only the woman to change or hyphenate. They say "Oh, it's a sign of devotion/family identity" Well, is he not devoted/serious about family, then? #mrs
I grew up in a heavily Mormon town. The default address for any adult from most kids was "Sister Firstname" or "Brother Firstname." Since we also had some vehemently anti-LDS people in town, that occasionally got interesting.
Technically, I am a Mrs., but I've been so happy that the default professional address for women is finally "Ms." that I don't plan on correcting anyone. The only time a title is relevant for me is at work.
The whole name change thing is extremely complicated. Since I've spent most of my life being called by a name I don't prefer (a mangling of my last name, which wasn't actually that complicated but confused the hell out of people anyway), I'm very happy to have a name people can pronounce now. However, I understand the potential societal ramifications of taking my husband's name. (I hang out here. How could I not?) At the end of the day, I'm happier with my married name, and that's what counts.
10/27/09
Seriously, one could ask their husband to do more domestic labor so that they can do better at corporate life. What if he says no, or does a deliberately crappy job and blames it on his possession of testicles? What if he does it for a month and then is like, "now it's your turn" (to do 90% of the work instead of the 75% you did for a month)? If you get rid of him, you get lectured by well-meaning people about how THEY came up with a super-easy system of asking and now their husband does "almost half" of the work, they have great sex three times a week now, and little Madison is going to private school and they're getting a housekeeper with the money they earned from Special Snowflake's Simple Method of Just Asking, and anyone who can't master Special Snowflake's Simple Method isn't *really* a feminist, but a "victim" who revels in it and probably hates her husband for being fun and more successful.
Yeah, I don't know why women wouldn't be assertive and ask for things when the above path is not just possible, but likely. Oh, wait... #joannelipman
10/27/09
Painfully, painfully true. I think I love you. #joannelipman
10/27/09
Pogrebin's response is what I don't like. "Paradoxically, she confesses that she both 'took equality for granted' and 'looked derisively at the women’s liberation movement,' whose rebels and activists she dismisses with the hoary stereotype, 'strident, humorless, shrill women.'" - Um, there's not actually anything paradoxical about this. This is how many young women think of feminism. The lives of younger feminists are very different from those of older feminists; could we at least make some effort to understand where the other group is coming from? #joannelipman
10/27/09
What I think is important to note here is that (a) how younger women "think of feminism" may be of historical interest, but philosophically it's not really that interesting a question - if what younger women think is an inaccurate description of what older feminists themselves, then no, I don't really know that the older feminists owe younger ones a duty of understanding when they are themselves being unfairly characterized; (b) it is, in general, my experienced that even those young feminists who cling to wave terminology and generational divide tend to be among the least informed about the history of feminism. We think our arguments are new, but the movement has been having them for forty years or more, which almost anyone could figure out by, y'know, actually reading some feminism.
I'm a young-ish woman, but it chaps my ass that younger women tend to be so obviously eager, like immature teenagers, to be iconoclastic about a feminist history they obviously barely understand. #joannelipman
10/27/09
Or maybe I'm reaching because this woman sounds like me at 15. #joannelipman
10/27/09
I maintain that there's no paradox, and the misuse just kills me. #joannelipman
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
"Congratulations! You're the 1,500,000th person to say that!" #joannelipman
10/27/09
10/27/09
I think the post yesterday was much more in tune with the problematic nature of the piece. And it's a little less knee-jerk rebuttal and more of a measured analysis. I would nominate Anna to write a letter to the editor but writing letters every time the NYT published something obnoxious or ridiculous would probably be a full time job in and of itself. #joannelipman
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
"Don’t pay me half of what I deserve, and don’t call me "doll" either.
The two go hand in hand and always did."
(applauds!)
10/27/09
10/18/09
10/18/09
10/17/09
10/17/09
Ms. is the only title that doesn't reference age or marital status. It's the female version of Mr. #mrs
10/17/09
10/17/09
10/18/09
10/18/09
10/17/09
The choice to change or keep one's name or title is not a free one. This is amply evident when women say things like "I took my husband's name because I want our family to have the same name" or "I just don't like my family name" or "I wasn't attached to my name, but he was to his"
We are trained from girlhood to think of our family name as temporary, belonging to our fathers, not really ours, while boys are taught full ownership of theirs. They grow up expecting to keep their name and give their name to all members of their new family as the symbolic head of the household. We are not free when the vast majority of women choose their choice to take their husband's name upon marriage. There are so many more egalitarian options available. #mrs
10/17/09
10/17/09
10/17/09
the problem, however, is that my mother is absolutely LIVID that i'm not taking his last name. she has said "well then why even bother getting married?" and many other ignorant/hurtful things about it and now we just don't even discuss it. but its so bad that she won't help me with wedding planning at all because she thinks i'm not serious about the marriage simply because i'm retaining my last name. (the irony here is that she is on marriage #4 and has changed her name every time, as though that is some sort of guarantee of marital success)
i guess i just want to know if any other jezzies have had a similar problem. i'd love to know how you worked it out. thanks! #mrs
10/17/09
I would ask her why your future husband(or any of her husbands) would bother marrying if they're just going to keep their name!
I had a little trouble from my MIL. She saw my driver's license and she thought I just hadn't changed it over yet. I said something like "No, neither of us decided to change our name when we got married" She looked confused for a moment, then laughed, then she got it. I actually did something similar, some years before to convince my mom to not take her second husband's name.
It's amazing how many people have turned around because they never before thought about how unequal it is for only the woman to change or hyphenate. They say "Oh, it's a sign of devotion/family identity" Well, is he not devoted/serious about family, then? #mrs
10/17/09
10/17/09
The whole name change thing is extremely complicated. Since I've spent most of my life being called by a name I don't prefer (a mangling of my last name, which wasn't actually that complicated but confused the hell out of people anyway), I'm very happy to have a name people can pronounce now. However, I understand the potential societal ramifications of taking my husband's name. (I hang out here. How could I not?) At the end of the day, I'm happier with my married name, and that's what counts.
10/17/09