Very well put!

While I don't know if sex is "sacred" i.e. in a religious way, it certainly is intimate, and I believe everyone should be able to choose when and with whom they are intimate, and I don't judge people who feel sex is no big deal, whatever. I just feel that discussing prostitution without acknowledging the patriarchy is, I don't know, it makes no sense to me. Please to forgive my poor wording. I haz a tired.

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Giving birth is biological and many cultures (including our own) consider it sacred.

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Keep it movin', nothin' to see here people

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It might not be my choice, but hey, there are a lot of things that other people do that I think are probably waaayyy worse then working at the Bunny Ranch.

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i think what many people have a problem with is the sale aspect of sex itself, and not the "promiscuity", for lack of a better term. personally, i am in favour of a decrim approach, one that leads to the sex industry being regulated much in the same way as other industries.

i wonder if you, or others who agree with your sentiment, would feel the same way about a man or woman at a bar who decided to have sex with a person that they didn't know, yet used the same type of protection that a sex worker might (condoms, providing a friend with a contact number like cell phone, or giving friends a gist of where you are heading). would you see that as dehumanizing as well?

i am definitely not trying to come off as rude or anything, i really appreciate, and respect your opinion, and would just like to have a constructive discussion on this! :) cheers

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But beyond all my pragmatic arguments about health risks and the increase in trafficking when prostitution is legal is the fact that I think accepting sex work lowers us as a society.

Some things just shouldn't be for sale- your internal organs, your children and who you sleep with. Maybe Mary Smith totally loves being a sex worker and it has no negative effects on her, but what about the fact that sex is often the thing you sell when you have no other choice? What does it say about our society when we are willing to put a price tag on an act that is supposed to be about lust, affection and mutual enjoyment?

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Its like saying Big Brother makes you think that there are way worse things than being locked in a house unable to leave.

@gobble_dee_goop: Promiscuity is completely and totally different than sex work. I don't think they belong in the same conversation at all.

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sorry, you'll need to clarify. in which way is promiscuity (i'm using it to mean random hook-ups, and it very well could be the wrong word that i am using) different than sex work?

what i am trying to express is that some of the justifications that people have against the decrim of sex work are that sex work is a dangerous profession, and that sex is something that is sacred. well, if we believe that sex is dangerous when performed by sex workers, and that is enough just cause to prevent decrim, then we also need to decide that sex between consenting adults who've hooked up at a bar should also be deemed illegal.

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As for health risks, every protected sex act comes with a tiny risk of transmitting an STI. A promiscious person might have 4 partners a week, a brothel worker might have 4 partners a day, 5 days a week.

Not all of these apply to every sex worker, but I don't think sex work and promiscuity have anything in common beyond sex.

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a perfect example is what happened in Vancouver, BC. when the police removed sex workers from off street locations (such as motels) the homicide rate of sex workers increased. this was due to sex workers being moved from areas where they were safe, to industrial areas where they no longer had access to other women who could help them. by this i mean that the motels had multiple people, the front desk person, the women that were nearby, the other patrons, that were able to notice anything extremely suspcious that went on. in industrial areas there is no one. many sex work researchers attribute this police intervention to be the reason why indivdiuals such as robert pickton were so succesful.

id also like to point out that I am advocating for decriminalization not legalization . two very different things.

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what i am trying to say is that we can find these similarities in many other industries, or people, but we do not prevent them from having choice.

regarding health, we can see that individuals from a number of industries have health risks, yet we do not prevent them from working in those industries. take for instance nurses, which report some of the highest WCB claims in Canada (not sure what year this was from, im recalling off the top of my head). we wouldn't tell a nurse who we believe to be a little unhealthy that she or he cannot choose to work in this profession any longer since there is a slight risk that they will sustain injury. the response from you may be (not trying to put words in your mouth) that sex work is not a career option that is needed in the same way that nursing is needed. truly, though, how can we say that sex isn't a need? as long as the sex is between two consenting adults, one of whom needs to have a sexual relation, then how can we say that it isnt as important as nursing. too much typing for now. ill elaborate if you'd like.

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Anyway, I really appreciate how respectful this conversation has been on all sides.

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I am saying that we need to look at the entire picture, which means looking at the institution as a whole, not just the experiences of a privileged few. The majority of sex workers on this planet, including many drug-addicted street prostitutes in this country, "choose" the life because they have no other choice.

I am not trying to deny women choice. I am trying to examine the big picture, and if our tacit acceptance of women being a product to be bought, sold, consumed and discarded plays a role in the very obvious fact that most sex "workers" are in reality slaves.

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same here! i love discussions like this. honestly, you should've been at a forum i had gone to in downtown vancouver regarding this topic. it was honestly just craziness all around. people from either side were just yelling at each other. not a good sight.

not to continuously switch the point of discussion around all the time, but could we also then use this same type of principle to decide that cheating should be deemed unlawful? we could say that a woman who has herpes that sleeps with suzzies boyfriend should also be charged? it would be the same thing as a sex worker, sleeping with her husband, except there is no money exchanged. i just want to get away from the idea that sex work is inherently a dangerous profession, and that instead the circumstances surrounding it may lead to it being dangerous. these circumstances can then be altered to make it less dangerous.

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The circumstances that make prostitution dangerous are in a large part due to the fact that the "transaction" itself reduces a woman to a consumable (and thereby disposable) object. If we didn't live in a patriarchy, perhaps a 100% consenting sex for trade between adults could be possible. And I am even sympathetic to some our local pro's johns -- sex is a human need, and, not to be mean, but I see how for some people it would be easier to just pay for it (a lot of them are old, widowed men).

I just want to get away from the idea that it will be any time soon before prostitution, even if decriminalized, will be, on the whole, beneficial to women. I, personally, do not wish to embrace the idea that women are things to be purchased. Because as long as we are "less than" men, that is the crux of prostitution.

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There is a lot of evidence that legalization creates increased demand, increased trafficking and decreased social programming for women who want to leave.

The demand logic doesn't hold water for me.

I really get tired of the attitude that being anti-prostitution means that you're uptight or dehumanizing sex workers. It is way too common on Jezebel.

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Although I don't 100% agree with you, I get what you are saying very clearly. Honest question, do you believe that if we lived in a matriarchy [that sounds so strange] that prostitution would never occur? Or do you believe that it would occur, but you would be okay with it if it was under those circumstances? Or any other option you'd like to throw out..I'm fascinated by this right now.

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Surely, they've seen Pretty Woman.

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Yes.

Also, whenever the subject of sex work comes up, it is treated as if the experience of sex workers in first world nations is the ONLY experience. It can be empowering! I'm sorry, maybe it can in some situations, but as long as the majority of sex "workers" on this planet are women and children being sold into sexual slavery -- and there are millions of them, some of them here in the good Ol' U.S. of A. -- I have a problem with just accepting the notion that we cannot question the practice of selling human flesh and human sexuality. Prostitution is not the world's oldest "profession." The first prostitutes in human history were not savvy business women cashing in on male horniness. They were slaves. They were the spoils of war. Prostitution is a patriarchal institution and I feel that this fact is just ignored in most conversations.

Please note: I am not attacking the sex workers who read this site. I know you chose your occupation. I know you find some benefits from it or you wouldn't be doing it. I just would like to be able to discuss the realities of the majority of the sex trade in this world, which is actually human trafficking, without being thought of as a prude or a slut-shamer. I don't think it's helpful, if we want to combat this last scourge of slavery, to discuss the entire concept of prostitution in the vacuum of what being a relatively privileged (i.e. not on the street, internet access, educated, etc.) American sex worker.

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It made me realize that almost none of my sexual experiences didn't have some sort of inequality on one side or another, from the movie ticket end of the spectrum to the complete vacation end. So I definitely can't fault them for codifying the experience and making it a simple transaction as opposed to some more fluid, nebulous sort of thing.

I've definitely had moments with boyfriends who were financially better off where I've thought something along the lines of "I could get groceries for a week off what dinner cost for you tonight..."

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I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but I really hate seeing this kind of argument on Jezebel. Its an argument misogynists use all the time to put women down.

Sleeping with someone who bought you dinner isn't selling sex. Agreeing that if he buys you dinner you will screw him when otherwise you wouldn't is selling sex.

A power imbalance doesn't equal prostitution.

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She never exposed herself or had sex. She'd just let them lick her boots.

Seriously.

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It can end up in debt slavery when taken to the extreme. Employers overcharge workers for crap they need and then the workers end up owing the employer money for the pay period instead of vice versa. That's

But I think that kind of crap is illegal. Not to mention dubious and highly unethical.

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I hate this and feel I lose a lot of money and that the club is exploiting me. Is it illegal? Can I change sex work for the better in this small way?!

I'm thinking that it's not illegal because as a stripper I'm technically an independent contractor, but it would be fucking awesome if this fake money rip-off ended.

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