and, I'm sorry but Tanglad's time may be better spent trying to eradicate the good ol Payday Loan Company - now THERE is a terrible, terrible institution
....and always dotting every MLK Blvd in the nation!
Check out Fonkoze in Haiti - fonkoze.org. They make loans to the poorest of the poor, as well as to the more traditional women's circle's/cooperatives. I wonder if Tanglad is familiar with the more social aspects of other cultures, as TG writes as if helping each other out is wrong. Many times, at least in Haiti, people go into debt and hardship to help a neighbor/friend/cousin out; not so much here in the US. Some times there are predatory lenders, gasp, and they ask for astronomical interest, but then they are not true micro lenders, either.
Organizations like Fonkoze and Grameen have been doing it for years and have programs and strategies that work. There is a lot of training, management, budgeting and literacy skills that go along with the lending that helps to make the repayment much more likely. Sounds like an idea that might work here, too!
The international development community is prone to fads, and microcredit is the fad of the moment. The real difficulty comes in figuring out where it does work, (perhaps even more importantly) where it doesn't, and then applying those lessons in the long term. There is no ONE silver bullet. There are hopefully a bunch of 'em that when implemented together, in a variety of ways (adjusted for regional differences, local economies etc) will slowly raise people's living standards. Of course, funders want to see instant feel-good success stories, and microcredit provides lots of 'em.
I just spent a semester in my grad school stat class trying to quantify this exact topic. The survey data that I used was inconclusive, but there's literature about how microfinance to women reduces domestic violence in South Africa, and in Bangladesh (the home of microfinance and Grameen bank), microgrants to women resulted in higher household spending than when loaned to women, by like 15% - household spending was defined as food, education, and medicine.
There are many more ways to judge the success of microfinance than loan repayment, and clearly the loan circles can make things complicated. But microloans, in many parts of the world, empower women and benefit women and children. While its not the be-all, end-all of foreign aid, its an essential tool.
@CherriSpryte: Interesting ... it's hard to gauge whether it's actually an effective system without having taken a long hard look at the stats as you have. It's good to hear that it doesn't seem to be hurting women at the very least (I know, small victories today).
@moll cutpurse: The two studies i mentioned are available here, if you've got access to a university library:
Pitt, Mark M. and Khandker, Shahidur R., "The Impact of Group-Based Credit Programs on Poor Households in Bangladesh: Does the Gender of Participants Matter?", The Journal of Political Economy, The University of Chicago Press Vol. 106, No. 5 (Oct., 1998), pp. 958-996. Accessed on October 3, 2008, from [www.jstor.org]
Paul M Pronyk, James R Hargreaves, Julia C Kim, Linda A Morison, et al. (2006). Effect of a structural intervention for the prevention of intimate-partner violence and HIV in rural South Africa: a cluster randomised trial. The Lancet, 368(9551), 1973-1983. Retrieved October 2, 2008, from Research Library Core database. (Document ID: 1175973801).
My actual, erm, paper is available online, but its got my full name all over the place, and i enjoy the anonymity between Jezebel and real life ...
@CherriSpryte: i've heard anecdotal stories from classmates from Cameroon amd Mauritania, however, that it's unraveling the social fabric and increasing rates of things such as alcoholism among men who in effect are stripped of their traditional responsibilities and have nothing left to fill the void. there's a good paper on it, but I'm blanking on the name and all of my stuff is in storage...
@LibidinousSlut: Yeah, I've heard of that as well, but I think part of the "men don't know what to do with themselves now that they can't lord over their families" problem is just the generational structural change and as this becomes a more accepted practice, men will not have as huge of a problem with it - the boys who today see their mother making money won't have a problem when their wife is doing the same. And the alcoholism thing is scary, but its not like (for the most part) women are getting these loans and taking the jobs from men. Men should still be working and earning money, they're just no longer the only ones doing so.
Also, in terms of the "social fabric" - I think a bit of unraveling is okay sometimes in the name of equality. Which may make me sound like a condescending western femnazi, but there it is.
I have a microcredit loan out right now, I read about it in the paper about a year ago and immediately went onto the Kiva website and got really excited about it. A few days later as I was trying to find another loan to make, I realised that essentially, I was shopping for a poor person to help out.
So I donated $25 to the local distress centre, and felt much less icky (this is arguably a self-centred move also, but anyway). The loan I have out is 25% repaid and I plan on donating the money to another local charity when I get it back.
@moll cutpurse: But, presumably, you know a bit about what this distress center does and the constituency it helps. So, that's not so different from poking around the Kiva website to decide how you want to disperse your loan money. Pretty much any act of philanthropy can be characterized as "shopping around for a poor person to help." You're looking for a way to make your money work for the greatest good. No shame.
I'm all for taking a critical look at anti-poverty programs, but the arguments here seem really shortsighted unless Tanglad has some modifications or a better program to suggest.
Yes, the poorest women are often kept out of microfinance arrangements, but that it isn't much of an argument against them to say "Well these programs help women who already earn a dollar a day, so we just shouldn't bother." No program is going to help everyone equally.
The surveillance systems, which are a little messed up, do ensure repayment, which keeps the program goings without much new capital. Microfinance is very cost effective and allows more money to go directly to people in need.
@clevernamehere: Agreed, the fact that some programs that empirically help certain people are not available to all is no reason to stop them. Poverty won't have a one-size-fits-all solution and from what little I know, microfinance overall has done more good than harm, but I am hardly well read on the subject.
I have tremendous respect for The Netherland's fucking smart crown princess, and who is on the microcredit advisory committee to the UN, so I'm just gonna stick with her. When she tells me it's doing fuck all and we'd better give up, I might start believing.
How much of a chance has this initiative been given until the critics started burning it down? I mean, really!
@haguenite: The Netherlands' government gives a TON of money to good development organizations - I'd say following her lead is a good plan.
And microgrants started in the late '70's, took off like crazy in the '90's, and Mohammad Yunus, who's idea this all was, won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2006 for it.
I read an article several weeks back about the new role of women in Rwanda, post-genocide. A mandate had been in effect that something like 50% of the government positions had to be filled by women. Well, the real number is more than that, with women playing a large role in re-shaping the country and bringing it into a more stable financial position. According to the article, it was working and it had the full support of all citizens, male and female.
Additionally, I saw the doc Pray the Devil Back to Hell last week, about how women stood up and forced the government and rebel forces to end the civil war. They simply stated, would not take no for an answer.
This may be off-topic, but I think that in the grand context, women in Africa have a far greater ability to change the continent's course than many of their male counterparts.
Microcredit is clearly not the silver bullet that will eliminate poverty worldwide, but I've got to believe it's better than nothing. I don't think it's wise to dismiss something because it only provides a marginal benefit rather than fixing a completely broken system.
@Rofold: Poverty isn't a monolith - there are so many different causes. And while you examine and work to alleviate the root causes, you use things like microlending to lessen the immediate impacts of poverty.
And there are lots of development ideas - they just work slowly, take lots of time, and we make as many mistakes as we get things right.
Look at the Millenium goals and how people are working to achieve them for an idea of the "awesome development ideas" : [www.un.org]
Microloans work in some communities and not in others. They've had a pretty good amount of success in southern asia, but in latin america, they tend to bomb. The IMF really pushes them these days, but they haven't had any overwhelming success there. Self-developed Co-ops, either factories or agricultural production (usually fair trade and organic) have had better success rates, and supporting them usually has more lasting results . . .
@o português é muito sexy: Could you post any resources about this? I have an account w/ Kiva, and it's coming time for me to reinvest my teensy bit of capital. I'd like for it to do whatever good it can, and global micromarkets are decidedly NOT my area of expertise. Thanks.
@arodriguez.romero: @PhDork: I used to have a bunch of info-I'll see if i can dig some up tonight. I'm a latin american studies major and while admittedly we tend to have bad feelings towards anything IMF related because of the loan crises, microloans in latin america just don't do very well.
As to alternatives, off the top of my head, there's been a series of abandoned factories reclaimed in argentina and restructured as coooperatives (there was a great documentary about it titled "The Take" ( "El tomar") a year or so ago). Also, there's a organic/fair trade cocoa producing company in Bolivia called El Ciebo . . . Also in Bolivia there's a good deal of ecological preservation projects being undertaken-Whispering in the Giant's Ear, by William Powell, is an amazing book about the topic, and also has some information about similar efforts in Costa Rica.
Really, there are projects all over the place, but they tend to fly under the radar since most information about Latin america is about immigration, Chavez, or the drug trade.
What's wrong with a menu of programs designed to help the poor. Surely one program isn't expected to cure all. What's wrong with one option that works for some? For others, a new option will be devised and so on. The goal is lifting people out of poverty, however it may be.
@Sophie needs to study...but isn't: Stop thinking about complicated issues in a nuanced way! The world is black and white, and all your greyness is just ruining everything.
@Shamrockette is no longer a teenager!: I really hope the women do not make each other run through obstacle courses and wear culturally derivative jewelry.
Oh, good lord. This is where I have to hand in my liberal card, because at a certain point, I've got to wonder whether these women would prefer to be briefly shamed and have a shot as self-sustaining businesses, or avoid "social shame" by living in extreme poverty. I'm gonna suspect they'd choose the former.
@PilgrimSoul: Keep the card, keep the card! I think a critical eye at any program--anti-poverty or otherwise--is healthy. But can't we just accept that one program isn't going to be a cure-all, as the author implies that we've done as such with microcredit? Microcredit is but one option among others. Subsidized housing in America doesn't work for everyone, true, but it can provide a good social net and springboard for others. Just because it doesn't cure homelessness doesn't mean the program should be erased. Critiques with alternative plans, good. Haterade on the otherhand is hazardous to one's health.
I think it often difficult for people to lend a critical eye without pouring a round of Haterade which is sad because as I've always said, the middle ground; that ground which is rarely tread, has many answers.
I'm glad people are taking closer looks at programs but there is no reason to demand a program cease simply because it didn't solve all ills (basically what you said Sophie)
12/16/08
....and always dotting every MLK Blvd in the nation!
12/16/08
12/16/08
Organizations like Fonkoze and Grameen have been doing it for years and have programs and strategies that work. There is a lot of training, management, budgeting and literacy skills that go along with the lending that helps to make the repayment much more likely. Sounds like an idea that might work here, too!
12/16/08
12/16/08
There are many more ways to judge the success of microfinance than loan repayment, and clearly the loan circles can make things complicated. But microloans, in many parts of the world, empower women and benefit women and children. While its not the be-all, end-all of foreign aid, its an essential tool.
12/16/08
12/16/08
Pitt, Mark M. and Khandker, Shahidur R., "The Impact of Group-Based Credit Programs on Poor Households in Bangladesh: Does the Gender of Participants Matter?", The Journal of Political Economy, The University of Chicago Press Vol. 106, No. 5 (Oct., 1998), pp. 958-996. Accessed on October 3, 2008, from [www.jstor.org]
Paul M Pronyk, James R Hargreaves, Julia C Kim, Linda A Morison, et al. (2006). Effect of a structural intervention for the prevention of intimate-partner violence and HIV in rural South Africa: a cluster randomised trial. The Lancet, 368(9551), 1973-1983. Retrieved October 2, 2008, from Research Library Core database. (Document ID: 1175973801).
My actual, erm, paper is available online, but its got my full name all over the place, and i enjoy the anonymity between Jezebel and real life ...
12/16/08
12/16/08
And the alcoholism thing is scary, but its not like (for the most part) women are getting these loans and taking the jobs from men. Men should still be working and earning money, they're just no longer the only ones doing so.
Also, in terms of the "social fabric" - I think a bit of unraveling is okay sometimes in the name of equality. Which may make me sound like a condescending western femnazi, but there it is.
12/16/08
So I donated $25 to the local distress centre, and felt much less icky (this is arguably a self-centred move also, but anyway). The loan I have out is 25% repaid and I plan on donating the money to another local charity when I get it back.
12/16/08
12/16/08
Yes, the poorest women are often kept out of microfinance arrangements, but that it isn't much of an argument against them to say "Well these programs help women who already earn a dollar a day, so we just shouldn't bother." No program is going to help everyone equally.
The surveillance systems, which are a little messed up, do ensure repayment, which keeps the program goings without much new capital. Microfinance is very cost effective and allows more money to go directly to people in need.
12/16/08
12/16/08
12/16/08
How much of a chance has this initiative been given until the critics started burning it down? I mean, really!
12/16/08
And microgrants started in the late '70's, took off like crazy in the '90's, and Mohammad Yunus, who's idea this all was, won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2006 for it.
12/16/08
Additionally, I saw the doc Pray the Devil Back to Hell last week, about how women stood up and forced the government and rebel forces to end the civil war. They simply stated, would not take no for an answer.
This may be off-topic, but I think that in the grand context, women in Africa have a far greater ability to change the continent's course than many of their male counterparts.
12/16/08
This is a good sign for society. :)
12/16/08
12/16/08
12/16/08
And there are lots of development ideas - they just work slowly, take lots of time, and we make as many mistakes as we get things right.
Look at the Millenium goals and how people are working to achieve them for an idea of the "awesome development ideas" : [www.un.org]
12/16/08
12/16/08
12/16/08
12/16/08
As to alternatives, off the top of my head, there's been a series of abandoned factories reclaimed in argentina and restructured as coooperatives (there was a great documentary about it titled "The Take" ( "El tomar") a year or so ago). Also, there's a organic/fair trade cocoa producing company in Bolivia called El Ciebo . . . Also in Bolivia there's a good deal of ecological preservation projects being undertaken-Whispering in the Giant's Ear, by William Powell, is an amazing book about the topic, and also has some information about similar efforts in Costa Rica.
Really, there are projects all over the place, but they tend to fly under the radar since most information about Latin america is about immigration, Chavez, or the drug trade.
12/16/08
12/16/08
12/16/08
12/16/08
Right?
12/16/08
12/16/08
12/16/08
I think a critical eye at any program--anti-poverty or otherwise--is healthy. But can't we just accept that one program isn't going to be a cure-all, as the author implies that we've done as such with microcredit? Microcredit is but one option among others. Subsidized housing in America doesn't work for everyone, true, but it can provide a good social net and springboard for others. Just because it doesn't cure homelessness doesn't mean the program should be erased.
Critiques with alternative plans, good. Haterade on the otherhand is hazardous to one's health.
12/16/08
Next up, conservatives will claim universal health care doesn't work because people will still die.
12/16/08
I think it often difficult for people to lend a critical eye without pouring a round of Haterade which is sad because as I've always said, the middle ground; that ground which is rarely tread, has many answers.
I'm glad people are taking closer looks at programs but there is no reason to demand a program cease simply because it didn't solve all ills (basically what you said Sophie)