I have this personal theory, based solely on the series of weiners that I have dated, that so many little boys these days are raised to believe they are special little snowflakes and they should seek out alternative employment that really satisfies their longing to create and be an agent of change in their life etc, etc, etc...whereas more and more little girls are being raised with the message that you have to work really, really hard and get a job and be ready to support your family entirely on your own because the world is changing and you can't rely on the mens anymore for any kind of support and the result is more and more women are in the kind of situation detailed in the post. I mean, custom-made golf clubs, IN THIS ECONOMY??
This kind of arrangement, where the woman has the steady job and daddy stays home to craft eco-friendly you-tube videos or whatever, seems to be more and more common. Certainly, the reverse used to be a common arrangement for couples with the power-daddy and a mom that stays home and makes candles or whatnot, and I almost applaud the fact that now it seems a gender-neutral situation, but I still resent the fact that I'm sitting here relentlessly pursuing a law-degree while every man I meet is working on his writing or formulating his amazing spike jonze-esque film debut and being supported by their parents. Why are women more and more the only ones being encouraged to be responsible? Is this the result of my parents' generation where everyone got divorced and the mothers all preached aggressive self-reliance?
Its not a bad thing that being successful is no longer the badge of masculinity it once was, but I know I feel no sympathy for a man who _hopes_ to someday contribute to the family expenses with his totally fun sounding interest in custom golf clubs. Maybe I'm just bitter because it seems I'm always the one buying dinner these days. #wagegap
I was living with my current partner for the last 2 years. We're both college students, so our primary "income" is student loans. I have tried to avoid giant loans, but you know, life happens and all that.
Anyway, he got fired well over a year ago, and hasn't worked since. Part of it was pure laziness (he didn't go to find a job, since he was in school and had loans that covered the bills) and part of it was sudden recession in which it was next to impossible to find work. As long as he paid his half of the bills, I was fine. It's his money and his life, and I don't really give a shit as long as I don't have to support him.
Then the student loans didn't come. His parents had been knocked down a tax bracket, and they decided that it was the perfect time to audit. They also told him not to get a job, as it would put him in a higher need bracket and expedite the process. I was working 20 hours a week or less on overnights, and not exactly bringing in the biggest paychecks. I ended up paying the rent through November, and was on the verge of bankruptcy when the loans FINALLY came (after Thanksgiving, oddly enough). He paid me back in full the first day he got his loans.
So, technically, I'm the "breadwinner". He's never once said anything about how our genders play into it. It's always been about how it works for us - that I had to pay the bills, and yes, I resented it a lot. Not because he is "the man" and must pay the bills, but because I wasn't making enough money to support two people. I was hardly making enough to support one. I kept my job because I hardly missed a day (he had a lot of funerals and family emergencies). I am more concerned about how this will affect his future, now that he doesn't owe me money any more. His self-image is not tied to providing for me, but rather, being an equal partner, and it hurt both of us when he couldn't do that. #wagegap
When Mr. Spamanda went back to school six years ago, even our friends asked us "how it felt" for me to be the breadwinner. I couldn't believe it. He was still working, I just had the steady job and the insurance. I think of my friends as being progressive, but this is such a pervasive idea. When our first son was born and we split the childcare 50/50 (by working different days of the week) people were REALLY weirded out by it. Even among young people, gender roles are so ingrained.
Also, custom golf clubs? Wow. #wagegap
@spamanda: I often have friends tell me that Mr.Pear needs to "get a better job, and pull his weight more." I always remind them, that if our work/pay situations were reversed NO ONE would say anything about it. There is still very much a double-standard. #wagegap
@spamanda: In a way, I think it is an easy out for women, even if they are progressive. If they are tired of working hard, or generally looking for a reason to resent their husband, it can be tempting for them to think that a real man should be providing for them. I've been the breadwinner for the last three years, and I can't imagine the pressure if society expected me to shoulder that burden for my whole marriage, without exceptions or help. #wagegap
@OneBigPear: Yeah, now that I'm a stay at home mom with our two children, no one suggests I "need" to find a job. I've also never been asked "how it feels" to have Mr. Spamanda provide all the financial support (well, other than friends who are also considering staying at home with kids!) #wagegap
I totally missed that whole "Bills, Bills, Bills" stage and went straight into "Independent Women". Except I went into "Broke Independent Woman" stage, which is decidely less glamorous. Far fewer opportunities to throw one's hands up. #wagegap
What I've also found really interesting about some of the speculation about how things are changing in regards to which gender is making the money is how many people are willing to state that it might change "gender roles". To me, it's sort of startling to see people in the mainstream (or whatever you'd like to call it) out and out admitting and talking about how finances affect how we interact on a personal level. It's really only another step to start talking about how, traditionally, money has been used to force women into certain situations and roles and keep them there and then a little skip forward to see where the resistance to women being paid equally comes from. #wagegap
The trajectory of Beyonce and Destiny's Child is a pretty hilarious illustration of women moving up in the workplace:
I think we're doing alright financially, number 4, take a hike.
Hey look, we're doing really well, I think I'll go solo now.
Oh man, recession, alright Kanye I guess we can do that remix.
(Not that I really think Beyonce is feeling the recession, or that she really needs Kanye around, but you know.) #wagegap
@bluebears:
I am confused by that also. I was just reading somewhere about how life during biblical times was matriarchal, but that point was obviously overlooked in organized Christianity. Even so, I don't remember learning in catechism that the dude has to bring home the bacon. #wagegap
@bluebears: I found that oddly disturbing to, although not surprising. I don't think they're supposed to say that out-loud where "non-believers" can hear. Note: This comment stemming directly from my childhood upbringing. #wagegap
@HarpMadness: yeah, it was like, oops that slipped out. I once worked in a large law firm and one of the staff members husband would come and pick up her pay check for her every week. She couldn't even touch it. They sent all their kids to Bob Jones University if that gives you any indication... #wagegap
@bluebears: He seemed to forget that Christians come in many different shapes and sizes. It reminds me of going to a friend's conservative Baptist wedding and my Christian friends were significantly more disturbed than me by what we felt was misogynistic language in the ceremony because it was their religion. #wagegap
@bluebears: Christians have this faulty ideal that men are supposed to be the head of the household. In order to do this, they feel they should make more money than their wife, so that she will more likely continue to be submissive to them. It's really crazy, but it all boils down to Colossians 3:18: Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. The meaning actually leans more towards respect, but many pastors have plundered the word and made it mean what they want it to mean, i.e. that women should be meek and humble toward her husband.
Jeez, I'm so glad to be away from organized religion, but I still know how fundamentalists think. #wagegap
@bluebears: That really annoyed me. Be grateful your wife is working, bub, or else you might be a Christian living in your car and wondering where your next meal is coming from. Worry about your male ego later. #wagegap
@bluebears: I guess that's his reading of things. Personally, I don't believe Christianity mandates that men be the breadwinners (pretty sure it isn't mentioned anywhere that I've seen, or maybe I just haven't been paying attention). But then, I recently went to a wedding and physically cringed when they used the "submission" language, which I hadn't heard used in any Christian ceremony in about 20 years. #wagegap
@Lymed: The "some" is implied, sorry, I should have included it. It is a generalized statement explaining why this particular chiristian believes his situation is so much harder because of his religion. #wagegap
@Kivrin: ha. right? I think I'll custom make golf-clubs which are already tied to an expensive hobby people might be cutting back on and custom making them means mine will be even more expensive! #wagegap
@Kivrin: It's like a friend of a friend who has quit her job to start a custom cat toy business from her home. As much as I love my kitty, I can't see spending twenty-five big ones on a silk-and-velvet catnip mouse, even in a booming economy. #wagegap
@Kivrin: Seriously. He must have read "Trading Up" and made these plans just in time for the economic crash. Pray to God, but row further out to sea? #wagegap
i do still snicker to myself when i read about this entitled category of people. 'cause all it means is when the coming cataclysms hit full bore, these helpless clueless idiots will be first to succumb.
You know whats great about the recession? I'm too broke to buy magazines and therefore no longer need to get angry about how ridiculous all their articles are.
"Everybody sort of defines themselves as middle class" in America, says Steven R. Pressman, a professor of economics and finance at Monmouth University in West Long Branch, N.J. "Self-perception is a funny thing."
Nothing has changed. These pieces seem to still be about ways to SPEND money, not ways to make yourself financially secure. Shopping a sale is still shopping. Getting your shoes re-soled, taking clothes to the tailor, and scamming food on a trip to Vail are all completely unnecessary expenses - maybe you're spending less, but chances are, you've got 12 more pairs of shoes in the closet, another dress you could wear that doesn't need to be tailored, and a vacation is always a want, not a need.
Also, I'm confused - she makes six figures, and managed to save 6,000. I hope that doesn't comprise her entire savings. I hope that's in addition to her retirement fund. Otherwise, on a third of her income, I've managed to save as much in just a couple of years of half-hearted trying. So, Fail.
RICH is the new rich? What is that supposed to mean? Plenty of people have enough money coming in to fund a comfortable existence, but as we've seen over the last 18 months, few of us have been taking care of our wealth in a meaningful way. $100k coming in and spending $99k on objects is not being rich.
Caring about your savings, retirement fund, taking care of the stuff you DO own, and knowing the difference between needs and wants makes you far richer than half the rich people out there.
Being broke isn't glamorous, whether you earn $20k a year or $500k. But you can live comfortably, smartly, and richly on a middle-class income if you're smart about your finances.
They were at it again today, too, explaining to the rest of us why we should care that the 108 richest families in the US are having their own "financial crises." You had $500 mil, but now it's only $350 mil, and you pledged $100 mil to the Met! What will you do about keeping a roof over your head?!!"
As for us, little has changed outright in the recession, aside from the slow dribbling away of the actual value of what we make (as prices rise, benefits lag, raises don't materialize, opportunities for improvement don't exist). We were just hanging on to middle class before, and we still are. What has changed: now, we're slightly more grateful that things aren't a whole lot worse, and we've pretty much stopped hoping things will get better, and have started hoping that the slow erosion of our income value doesn't continue until we're genuinely desperate. How am I supposed to feel bad for someone who still gets to go to Vail when my husband and I are probably not going to be able to afford a weekend in a hotel nearby for our tenth anniversary? Get a grip, whiny rich people.
@TheFormerJuneBronson: WRT "you pledged $100 mil to the Met:" As much as it gals me, this has actually become a fairly big concern of mine, because I work at an opera company. When our donors lose money, so do I.
@stonebiscuit has a phd in horribleness: I work in museums, so I completely understand that concern. What I was getting at was, they're saying it like, o fuck! Better cancel that pledge! When if they honor it, they still have "only" $250 mil! How am I supposed to feel that kind of panic when we make well under six figures and see the real value of our salaries dropping every day? They have a loooong way to go before penury. Much longer than almost everyone else.
10/19/09
This kind of arrangement, where the woman has the steady job and daddy stays home to craft eco-friendly you-tube videos or whatever, seems to be more and more common. Certainly, the reverse used to be a common arrangement for couples with the power-daddy and a mom that stays home and makes candles or whatnot, and I almost applaud the fact that now it seems a gender-neutral situation, but I still resent the fact that I'm sitting here relentlessly pursuing a law-degree while every man I meet is working on his writing or formulating his amazing spike jonze-esque film debut and being supported by their parents. Why are women more and more the only ones being encouraged to be responsible? Is this the result of my parents' generation where everyone got divorced and the mothers all preached aggressive self-reliance?
Its not a bad thing that being successful is no longer the badge of masculinity it once was, but I know I feel no sympathy for a man who _hopes_ to someday contribute to the family expenses with his totally fun sounding interest in custom golf clubs. Maybe I'm just bitter because it seems I'm always the one buying dinner these days. #wagegap
10/19/09
Anyway, he got fired well over a year ago, and hasn't worked since. Part of it was pure laziness (he didn't go to find a job, since he was in school and had loans that covered the bills) and part of it was sudden recession in which it was next to impossible to find work. As long as he paid his half of the bills, I was fine. It's his money and his life, and I don't really give a shit as long as I don't have to support him.
Then the student loans didn't come. His parents had been knocked down a tax bracket, and they decided that it was the perfect time to audit. They also told him not to get a job, as it would put him in a higher need bracket and expedite the process. I was working 20 hours a week or less on overnights, and not exactly bringing in the biggest paychecks. I ended up paying the rent through November, and was on the verge of bankruptcy when the loans FINALLY came (after Thanksgiving, oddly enough). He paid me back in full the first day he got his loans.
So, technically, I'm the "breadwinner". He's never once said anything about how our genders play into it. It's always been about how it works for us - that I had to pay the bills, and yes, I resented it a lot. Not because he is "the man" and must pay the bills, but because I wasn't making enough money to support two people. I was hardly making enough to support one. I kept my job because I hardly missed a day (he had a lot of funerals and family emergencies). I am more concerned about how this will affect his future, now that he doesn't owe me money any more. His self-image is not tied to providing for me, but rather, being an equal partner, and it hurt both of us when he couldn't do that. #wagegap
10/19/09
Also, custom golf clubs? Wow. #wagegap
10/19/09
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10/19/09
I think we're doing alright financially, number 4, take a hike.
Hey look, we're doing really well, I think I'll go solo now.
Oh man, recession, alright Kanye I guess we can do that remix.
(Not that I really think Beyonce is feeling the recession, or that she really needs Kanye around, but you know.) #wagegap
10/19/09
whut? Is that in the bible somewhere? #wagegap
10/19/09
I am confused by that also. I was just reading somewhere about how life during biblical times was matriarchal, but that point was obviously overlooked in organized Christianity. Even so, I don't remember learning in catechism that the dude has to bring home the bacon. #wagegap
10/19/09
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10/19/09
Jeez, I'm so glad to be away from organized religion, but I still know how fundamentalists think. #wagegap
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Every time I think I'm out of reasons to crack on my former religion, they pull me back in… :-\ #wagegap
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10/04/09
"Everybody sort of defines themselves as middle class" in America, says Steven R. Pressman, a professor of economics and finance at Monmouth University in West Long Branch, N.J. "Self-perception is a funny thing."
From this article: [articles.moneycentral.msn.com]
10/04/09
Also, I'm confused - she makes six figures, and managed to save 6,000. I hope that doesn't comprise her entire savings. I hope that's in addition to her retirement fund. Otherwise, on a third of her income, I've managed to save as much in just a couple of years of half-hearted trying. So, Fail.
RICH is the new rich? What is that supposed to mean? Plenty of people have enough money coming in to fund a comfortable existence, but as we've seen over the last 18 months, few of us have been taking care of our wealth in a meaningful way. $100k coming in and spending $99k on objects is not being rich.
Caring about your savings, retirement fund, taking care of the stuff you DO own, and knowing the difference between needs and wants makes you far richer than half the rich people out there.
Being broke isn't glamorous, whether you earn $20k a year or $500k. But you can live comfortably, smartly, and richly on a middle-class income if you're smart about your finances.
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
As for us, little has changed outright in the recession, aside from the slow dribbling away of the actual value of what we make (as prices rise, benefits lag, raises don't materialize, opportunities for improvement don't exist). We were just hanging on to middle class before, and we still are. What has changed: now, we're slightly more grateful that things aren't a whole lot worse, and we've pretty much stopped hoping things will get better, and have started hoping that the slow erosion of our income value doesn't continue until we're genuinely desperate. How am I supposed to feel bad for someone who still gets to go to Vail when my husband and I are probably not going to be able to afford a weekend in a hotel nearby for our tenth anniversary? Get a grip, whiny rich people.
10/04/09
10/05/09