Aren't modeling and Christianity kind of incompatible? Vanity is a sin, after all. And most Christian sects are pretty anti-anything-that-could-be-arousing
You see, this is why I am an Athiest. I never understood why people need their religion to invade every part of their lives and dictate everything that they do. For me, there are times when God is relevant, and times when s/he isn't. And for me, unless you are blatantly harrassed at a job because of your religion, work really isn't one of those times when God has to always be first. So my reaction to this is really more of a question: why is this necessary?
Models of Life: combining the two most annoying factors of door-to-door missionaries and disingenuous flattery.
This promotion of Christian values seems to come in the form of taking big groups of aspiring models to church for special MoL classes. I am very skeptical. This sounds like a classic modelling agency scam: pay money at the front end (in the form of classes, here, maybe not photos) for the promise of work later. Unless these classes are free? I don't know; I can't find the "impressive website" the Observer mentions, just a message-board looking site with one post: [modelsoflife.com]
ETA: there is another models of life website, modelsoflife.org, but I can only access that through google cache. impressive!
A few months ago a Christian talent agency had a casting call for models in Boston. I didn't understand how one could model for Christ and I still don't. I guess maybe they model for Christian publications?
@Sputnik_Sweetheart: It seems like a gimmick to me, like a way to make money. It seems to be posing as a way to reconcile doing something impious and essentially superficial (modelling) with being religious.
If I were trying to make some cash, I might do this: create a Christian talent agency, market aggressively in religious areas with the message: you can be a model and an exemplary Christian!, select as many young women as possible while still rejecting enough to be credible, then offer mandatory modelling classes for a fee with the promise of work and spiritual development later.
I feel like you be a Christian and an anything, but that doesn't mean you have to be a Christianwhatever.
Like, I call myself a Catholic, and I happen to teach for a living, but that doesn't make me a Catholic teacher, in that I have to advertise and advocate for my Catholicism through my teaching. (Though it could be argued that my teaching is, in some ways, informed by my Catholicism. Shades of grey, I guess.)
Does this distinction make sense? Because I feel like it's so logical.
@sequined: Makes a lot of sense. I don't care what people's religious views are, they can just keep them to themselves. I'm sure there are "christian models", they just have the sense to not advertise their religion.
I wouldn't call myself an "atheist/agnostic student" because I don't roam around preaching at people.
@sequined: I think there is a huge difference between being a part of the "culture" of a religion and holding the tenets of that religion dear. Even though I'm an atheist, I was raised by a vaguely protestant family and I acknowledge the profound effect that culture has had on me. I think it is very important to differentiate between identifying with the culture of a religion and believing in the religion's teachings.
I think that for many people who really believe in their religious teachings, they cannot separate the role of "teacher" and the role of "Catholic" or "Christian." I believe that is why we see so many people trying to shape the public sphere to their own religious morality. If you truly believe that your religion's laws represent the absolute truth, it is logical for you to insist that everyone else follow them, or at least that "man's law" should reflect them.
@Pavonine1: I have to disagree with you, from experience.
A devout Christian will strive to live their life in following with Christianity - kindness, charity, fellowship, mercy, love, forgiveness. They won't go around preaching, but live by example. And as these are core values, they don't just take them off when they're in the secular sphere and turn them back on when they're in the private sphere. However, they don't go around preaching. You may not even know they are Christian until Easter when they mention they are going to a service. They can be a teacher, and they can be Christian, and they can bring their Christian values without ever once imposing a Christian viewpoint to their students and without ever preaching to their students or ever mentioning their religion at all. They will simply strive to be kind, charitable, forgiving, and so on. Most of Christianity around the world isn't the preachy Republican American stuff or the preachy TV preachers in Canada and the UK. It's people who believe, and who don't preach but who iive by example, being kind to those around them.
@Pavonine1: I was taught (prolly in Sunday school, naturally) that in the "pie chart" of your life, religion can't just be a slice of the pie, so to speak. If you divide up your life into what you do/what's important to you, and you end up with "church, work, friends, yoga, family, whatever," that's misunderstanding the role of religion, because faith should underlie all the other slices of pie, rather than be a separate one.
So sure, "good" Catholics and Christians think of themselves/their lives/their faiths that way. But it doesn't mean that when I'm up in front of my students teaching about comma splices, I'm also trying to convert them. It just means that I hold dear the values of my Church as they're applicable (say, fairness, compassion, diligence, whatever).
Therefore, you can be a really devout Christian and also engage in some job/profession without using that job/profession as a platform for your faith.
So I use my Christianity/morality to make me a better teacher (/student/model/secretary/whatever), but don't use my teaching (/modeling/whatever) to make other people Christian.
@Dancingfrog: I agree with you that most Christians are not the preachy types, and I think you are right to make that distinction. However, Christianity does not have a monopoly on kindness, charity, love, etc. I know you don't mean to suggest that they do, but I want to point out that these values are not AT ALL *inherently* Christian.
I also agree with you that many people who identify as Christian, or Catholic, or whatever do not use their profession to preach their religion. However, there are many, many examples of people refusing to perform job duties in the name of their religion. (feministing.com has documented many pharmacists refusing birth control or emergency contraception to women based on their religion. Many pastors refuse to marry same-sex couples. Some doctors refuse to perform abortions.) There are many people who identify as devout Christians that don't preach at work, but whose faith affects the way they do their jobs. Obviously Models for Life intends to influence the way that its members work.
While these people are the minority, I think it is wrong to dismiss them by saying that "a devout Christian won't go around preaching, just living by example." Also, I would like to see the value of *tolerance* get a mention in there with love, charity, forgiveness, etc. :) Cheers.
Considering Jesus went ape s**t on a market place in like 30 AD, I'm pretty sure he would not be cool with the opulence of the fashion industry. Also I don't appreciate equating "Christian values" with "inner beauty." I am an atheist; does that make me ugly on the inside?
@Pavonine1: He went apeshit on a currency exchange within temple walls, which makes me think he'd probably have fairly strong feelings about megachurches with ATMs. I don't think he went apeshit on the entire existence of commerce, though he was harsh on greedy bastards and variable interest loans.
Good design and simplicity are not mutually exclusive; I wish we saw more of both.
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purpleshoes reminds everyone to take typing breaks and stretch, ow was starred
purpleshoes reminds everyone to take typing breaks and stretch, ow was unstarred
@Pavonine1: Unfortunately, to a lot of people, not believing in a god definitely makes you ugly on the inside, morally bankrupt, and apparently "evil". Which, no. You can have very strong moral convictions that are not religiously motivated. I tend to think of many of them as being common sense/ethics. I'm kind to others because I see no reason not to be. Being mean rarely gets you what you want, and tends not to make things any easier any way, so, why bother. :}
@Pavonine1: What I really loved was the simultaneous renditions of "it sucks to be a greedy bastard!" and "It also sucks to be poor! Honestly, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, working-on-sunday dude!".
purpleshoes reminds everyone to take typing breaks and stretch, ow was starred
purpleshoes reminds everyone to take typing breaks and stretch, ow was unstarred
Does there have to be a (fundamentalist) "Christian" version of everything?
I thought the "Fellowship of Christian Athletes" at my high school was weird, then I went to a music conservatory for college and found out that the prayer group here goes to a "Christian classical musicians" retreat....and now, this?
Can't we just accept that religion doesn't have to permeate every aspect of people's lives?
@Erda: Who said fundamental? I saw no mention of fundamentalism.
You can be Christian and not fundamental, in fact that's about 99% of Christians. Also, faith by some people's definition means it permeates your whole life.
@Erda: To be fair, often these designations like the Christian athletes are mirrored in other groups, like African American athletes and Women athletes. I can only speak for my own field because it's what I know, but in social work there's about a billion groups like that, there's the National Association of Social Workers, then Christian, then black, then female, and it goes on and on and on. If it's privately funded, I don't see any issue with like-minded individuals forming a coalition, but in this case, it's pretty silly. I'm picturing about 100 Carrie Prejeans rambling about "opposite marriage" at the end of a catwalk and it's painful.
Also, again, this example of it is ridiculous, but as long as they're not infringing on the rights of others and keeping within the boundaries of church and state, allowing religion to bleed into other aspects of one's life is part of being devout, which in a way I can respect.
@annebreal: Yeah, but usually those organizations are for groups of people that have traditionally been marginalized or discriminated against. Christians haven't had to deal with that since about... Oh, when did Constantine make christianity the official religion of Rome? Despite the constant "culture war" caterwauling and claims of discrimination against christians coming from the paranoid right.
la.donna.pietra promoted this comment
Edited by Mireille is German for the Bart, the. at 09/27/09 2:42 PM
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@AmericanSplendor: Um, yes, I'm well aware of the fact that you can be Christian and not be a fundamentalist; my stepdad is a Presbyterian minister who is very liberal. But these groups generally seem to be more fundamentalist, and that's the gist I got from the article. From what I've seen, the more liberal and moderate aren't as apt to wear their piety on their sleeve everywhere they go, so they don't feel the need to inject Christianity into completely-unrelated areas of their lives.
Also, I didn't word my statement right. It's not so much the religion-permeating-your-whole-life... thing that ticks me off. Like, I'd never argue against a football player feeling the need to pray before a game, or whatever. But there's an icky, holier-than-thou attitude about these groups. They're not just a model/athlete/musician, they're a Christian model/athlete/musician, so they're special and better. And the implication, of course, is that Christianity is rare in whatever they're doing, which to me sounds like that annoying persecution complex a lot of fundies have - which, as an agnostic (and therefore a member of an actual "religious" minority in this country, one that keeps me from ever having a chance to run for president, for one) really pisses me off.
@annebreal: Mireille said it better than I did, so I'm getting rid of what I wrote. The implication is that Christians are "oppressed" in the way black people and women are when, at least in America, they're anything but. Christians are the ones with privilege, and usually, they're the ones doing the oppressing.
@Mireille is German for the Bart, the.: As long as they're paying for it themselves, yeah, their philosophy behind having such a group might be convoluted and distorted, but they have the right to exist. In this case, I think it's beyond ridiculous, especially with racial diversity in the modeling industry being what it is.
I compulsively have to play devil's advocate when topics like this come up, because I'm a Christian, even when I find myself 99% against it, like this stupid modeling agency. Call it childhood programming, I guess. I saw Jesus Camp for the first time a month or so ago and found it all too eerily familiar.
@Erda: I never said that Christians were a marginalized or oppressed group, to be clear. I don't believe that they are. I'm just saying that the same model that allows groups like Fellowship of Christian Athletes to operate also allows groups like the National Alliance of African American Athletes. So while some of these groups might seem silly and pointless, the idea of having smaller like-minded groups isn't necessarily a bad one. I think sometimes we forget about the idea of equality when some group or idea rubs us the wrong way. If for every group of legitimately marginalized people there's one kind of annoying coalition, oh well. It happens.
@annebreal: I didn't say that you thought they were marginalized. I was simply pointing out why I don't think they should be compared to the National Alliance of African-American Athletes, for example.
Also, for the record, I'm not saying they don't have a right to exist. They do. Just, the ideas behind why they exist are a bit problematic.
@Erda: This is where debating online gets problematic, because I didn't say that you said that, I was just trying to make myself more articulate than I originally was.
I was comparing them because they're all similar organizations in how they exist. You were originally saying why does there have to be a Christian version of everything, and I was trying to answer you in that there are many instances of that kind of group sub sect. So in criticizing why specifically Christian groups exist, it might be a good idea to think about why any of them exist.
@Erda: Based on what I read from the actual article and some online research of the organization, the ideas behind why they exist are these:
To allow women access to a talent agency for modeling that works to promote beauty, self esteem, peace of mind, and etiquette through standard modeling class practices in addition to bible study or similarly structured classes.
Most likely it's led by a person or group who thought, "How can we start a successful modeling agency that can compete with all the ones that are already established? Oh! A gimmick!"
Personally, I wish the intentions were more altruistic, but ultimately they can do what they want, and if they actually follow through on promoting inner beauty then they're helping in the fight against modern beauty standards.
@Erda: I think I understand what you mean. One the one hand, Christians can live by example and *not* be preachy all the time. And a good number do! But they are overshadowed by the Christians who have a need to attach the word Christian to everything they do - "who, I'm a Christian Footballer" instead of "I'm Christian and I am a footbalerl".
On the other hand, in this particular case of a modelling agency, I can kind of understand it. Modelling can be a risky business for young women - having an agency who understands your values and will pre-screen jobs that fit those values, an agency that believes in mind/body/spirit balance as actually *follows* that value could be quite good for teenagers in the modelling world. It would be better if they had it more of a "spiritual" modelling agency that allowed girls of any religion who wanted a more balanced agency to join, though.
@annebreal: Christians are certainly not marginalized in North America or Europe! But there are pockets of Christians who are marginalized in the world. They just aren't anywhere that British models are likely to be walking the catwalk, which is why I wonder why they didn't make this an agency for models of all religions (or no religion) with more traditional values who prefer to have their jobs pre-screened so they aren't walking into, say, soft-core porn without knowing it or endorsing products made with child labour.
You know what, if this is how they want to express their faith, more power to them. I think it would be better served on social justice issues, but that's my catholic (little c) cup of tea.
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Edited by Mireille is German for the Bart, the. at 09/27/09 2:30 PM
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09/27/09
No it's not.
09/27/09
09/27/09
09/27/09
09/27/09
09/27/09
Until I see any short-tall-fat-thin variation of their models, I call bullshit on their whole "inner-beauty" claim.
09/27/09
This promotion of Christian values seems to come in the form of taking big groups of aspiring models to church for special MoL classes. I am very skeptical. This sounds like a classic modelling agency scam: pay money at the front end (in the form of classes, here, maybe not photos) for the promise of work later. Unless these classes are free? I don't know; I can't find the "impressive website" the Observer mentions, just a message-board looking site with one post: [modelsoflife.com]
ETA: there is another models of life website, modelsoflife.org, but I can only access that through google cache. impressive!
09/27/09
09/27/09
If I were trying to make some cash, I might do this: create a Christian talent agency, market aggressively in religious areas with the message: you can be a model and an exemplary Christian!, select as many young women as possible while still rejecting enough to be credible, then offer mandatory modelling classes for a fee with the promise of work and spiritual development later.
09/27/09
09/27/09
09/27/09
09/27/09
Like, I call myself a Catholic, and I happen to teach for a living, but that doesn't make me a Catholic teacher, in that I have to advertise and advocate for my Catholicism through my teaching. (Though it could be argued that my teaching is, in some ways, informed by my Catholicism. Shades of grey, I guess.)
Does this distinction make sense? Because I feel like it's so logical.
09/27/09
I wouldn't call myself an "atheist/agnostic student" because I don't roam around preaching at people.
09/27/09
I think that for many people who really believe in their religious teachings, they cannot separate the role of "teacher" and the role of "Catholic" or "Christian." I believe that is why we see so many people trying to shape the public sphere to their own religious morality. If you truly believe that your religion's laws represent the absolute truth, it is logical for you to insist that everyone else follow them, or at least that "man's law" should reflect them.
09/27/09
A devout Christian will strive to live their life in following with Christianity - kindness, charity, fellowship, mercy, love, forgiveness. They won't go around preaching, but live by example. And as these are core values, they don't just take them off when they're in the secular sphere and turn them back on when they're in the private sphere. However, they don't go around preaching. You may not even know they are Christian until Easter when they mention they are going to a service. They can be a teacher, and they can be Christian, and they can bring their Christian values without ever once imposing a Christian viewpoint to their students and without ever preaching to their students or ever mentioning their religion at all. They will simply strive to be kind, charitable, forgiving, and so on. Most of Christianity around the world isn't the preachy Republican American stuff or the preachy TV preachers in Canada and the UK. It's people who believe, and who don't preach but who iive by example, being kind to those around them.
09/27/09
09/27/09
So sure, "good" Catholics and Christians think of themselves/their lives/their faiths that way. But it doesn't mean that when I'm up in front of my students teaching about comma splices, I'm also trying to convert them. It just means that I hold dear the values of my Church as they're applicable (say, fairness, compassion, diligence, whatever).
Therefore, you can be a really devout Christian and also engage in some job/profession without using that job/profession as a platform for your faith.
So I use my Christianity/morality to make me a better teacher (/student/model/secretary/whatever), but don't use my teaching (/modeling/whatever) to make other people Christian.
09/27/09
I also agree with you that many people who identify as Christian, or Catholic, or whatever do not use their profession to preach their religion. However, there are many, many examples of people refusing to perform job duties in the name of their religion. (feministing.com has documented many pharmacists refusing birth control or emergency contraception to women based on their religion. Many pastors refuse to marry same-sex couples. Some doctors refuse to perform abortions.) There are many people who identify as devout Christians that don't preach at work, but whose faith affects the way they do their jobs. Obviously Models for Life intends to influence the way that its members work.
While these people are the minority, I think it is wrong to dismiss them by saying that "a devout Christian won't go around preaching, just living by example." Also, I would like to see the value of *tolerance* get a mention in there with love, charity, forgiveness, etc. :) Cheers.
09/27/09
09/27/09
Good design and simplicity are not mutually exclusive; I wish we saw more of both.
09/27/09
09/27/09
09/28/09
09/27/09
I thought the "Fellowship of Christian Athletes" at my high school was weird, then I went to a music conservatory for college and found out that the prayer group here goes to a "Christian classical musicians" retreat....and now, this?
Can't we just accept that religion doesn't have to permeate every aspect of people's lives?
09/27/09
You can be Christian and not fundamental, in fact that's about 99% of Christians. Also, faith by some people's definition means it permeates your whole life.
09/27/09
Also, again, this example of it is ridiculous, but as long as they're not infringing on the rights of others and keeping within the boundaries of church and state, allowing religion to bleed into other aspects of one's life is part of being devout, which in a way I can respect.
09/27/09
09/27/09
Also, I didn't word my statement right. It's not so much the religion-permeating-your-whole-life... thing that ticks me off. Like, I'd never argue against a football player feeling the need to pray before a game, or whatever. But there's an icky, holier-than-thou attitude about these groups. They're not just a model/athlete/musician, they're a Christian model/athlete/musician, so they're special and better. And the implication, of course, is that Christianity is rare in whatever they're doing, which to me sounds like that annoying persecution complex a lot of fundies have - which, as an agnostic (and therefore a member of an actual "religious" minority in this country, one that keeps me from ever having a chance to run for president, for one) really pisses me off.
09/27/09
09/27/09
09/27/09
I compulsively have to play devil's advocate when topics like this come up, because I'm a Christian, even when I find myself 99% against it, like this stupid modeling agency. Call it childhood programming, I guess. I saw Jesus Camp for the first time a month or so ago and found it all too eerily familiar.
09/27/09
09/27/09
Also, for the record, I'm not saying they don't have a right to exist. They do. Just, the ideas behind why they exist are a bit problematic.
09/27/09
I was comparing them because they're all similar organizations in how they exist. You were originally saying why does there have to be a Christian version of everything, and I was trying to answer you in that there are many instances of that kind of group sub sect. So in criticizing why specifically Christian groups exist, it might be a good idea to think about why any of them exist.
09/27/09
To allow women access to a talent agency for modeling that works to promote beauty, self esteem, peace of mind, and etiquette through standard modeling class practices in addition to bible study or similarly structured classes.
Most likely it's led by a person or group who thought, "How can we start a successful modeling agency that can compete with all the ones that are already established? Oh! A gimmick!"
Personally, I wish the intentions were more altruistic, but ultimately they can do what they want, and if they actually follow through on promoting inner beauty then they're helping in the fight against modern beauty standards.
09/27/09
On the other hand, in this particular case of a modelling agency, I can kind of understand it. Modelling can be a risky business for young women - having an agency who understands your values and will pre-screen jobs that fit those values, an agency that believes in mind/body/spirit balance as actually *follows* that value could be quite good for teenagers in the modelling world. It would be better if they had it more of a "spiritual" modelling agency that allowed girls of any religion who wanted a more balanced agency to join, though.
09/27/09
09/27/09
Go for it, live in faith.
09/27/09