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Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail

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babydollhathnofury
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
I have been bashing this chick pretty hard, but when her medical records became public I winced a little bit. She was diagnosed with schizophrenia and depression, which now in retrospect makes a lot of sense...

Well the damage is done, and she does need help. How are we going to make sure that something like this doesn't happen again?!? With the doctors that implanted her to her medical records going public, the lack of ethics in this situation is soooo scary right now.
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prestocaro fears the culling
02/12/09

@babydoll83: What?! Where?! How?! Link please.
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swimmingly
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
Dude. How does she get student loans that allow her to pay for her children? That's really not financially bright; she has to pay it all back with interest. I know there are tons of people out there who will give her money because her children were "a gift from God".I watched the interview. If I wasn't a devout Satan-worshipper and loved Jesus, I would be sending her my spare change, too. And why did she have to do IVF? Why not just normal sex? She would still have babies, but maybe not a litter at a time.
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prestocaro fears the culling
02/12/09

@swimmingly: I think she has fertility problems -- her mom said her (I'm so not kidding, even though this sounds comical to me) "tubes were stopped up". I believe all of her kids are from IVF. She claims she's had 6 embryos transferred multiple times, but at most wound up having twins from the previous procedures.
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Jessica Sorensen
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
This is what bothers me the most. When my husband was unemployed he filed for unemployment and government assistance, he had to list every dime he had in his possession, 401k's, savings account it even asked how much you had in your pockets. If the state of California knew she had all this money in savings (The money she had saved for IVF) then why did it continue to give her monetary assistance. And if she lied, she should have to pay it back; just like how my husband signed a waiver saying if your lying your paying it back. I would like to spend my dollars on a whole brood of miniature schnauzers and let the government feed and shelter me!
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NefariousNewt
02/12/09

@Jessica Sorensen: The problem is that the cat is already out of the bag. What's done is done. While a lot of gnashing of teeth and vitriol has been launched, the fact remains that she now has 14 kids to care for, she requires the assistance of the State of California to care for them, and short of a major book/TV deal, she isn't going to be able to come up with the necessary money on her own.

I agree that she should have had to disclose all her available resources in order to qualify for aid, but this is also a failure of bureaucracy -- literally, one part of the state's aid structure did not know about money she was receiving from any other part.

This case has raised a lot of questions, and it's the answers to those questions that will hopefully ensure that the next person to try something like this finds it more difficult. Right now though, these children need support, and California will have to pay.
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Cerridwen
02/12/09

@NefariousNewt: And it sucks that her flagrant abuse of the system will probably make it harder for people who really need assistance to get it, because the bureaucracy will tighten up to prevent egregious misuse of funds. My boyfriend used to volunteer for a poverty-reduction society and his whole job was helping people who need social assistance fill out the damn forms and do the whole mess of paperwork required to get the assistance. Some of these people were at the lowest places in their lives, were drug or alcohol addicts, mentally ill etc and were not in a position to deal with heaps of bureaucratic red tape, which (let's face it) are confusing, frustrating and off-putting for people in the best of circumstances.
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ObtuseIntolerant
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
This is some great blog reporting/news aggregating, Margaret!! I'd like to see more of this tack on stories...KUDOS!
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Cerridwen
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
See, I am probably what Real America (tm Sarah Palin) would call a socialist. I believe strongly in socialized health care and state assistance for those who cannot assist themselves. But, I believe also that social assistance is a helping hand for those who find themselves, for whatever reason, unable to help themselves, from an accident, mental illness, physically illness, getting laid off etc. It is, as my aunt would say, a hand up not a hand out. In using her workers' comp for fertility treatments and such, she was blatantly abusing the system. And it is very very worrisome that money for the children will have to be funneled through her. HOWEVER, I feel like the children are exactly the kind of people that state assistance is meant to help, especially given the disabilities and health issues they have. These infants and young children are vulnerable and deserve help, regardless of how misguided their mother is. So to those crying foul over the taxpayers' burden, what would you have happen to the eight infants in critical care and the other six, including three with disabilities, that need food shelter, clothing, an education and a stable home?

I just wish there wasn't the worry that she would use the money for more plastic surgery or fertility treatments.
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Emmersct
02/12/09

@Cerridwen: I guess that's why we have food stamps, instead of cash payments. Some people (not all) who are down at the bottom of society are there because they are really, really bad at making good decisions. So we have things like food vouchers, and housing vouchers, and free clinics, so the only choice they can make is "house or no house?" Instead of "house or plastic surgery?" or "house for my kids or drugs for me?" It seems to me that Nadya Suleman has proven herself incapable of rational decision-making. In order to keep those kids safe, clothed and fed, the government will pretty much need to provide ONLY vouchers for tangible goods/services, because she can't be trusted with actual cash. It's pretty horrible, but it's not a unique situation.
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Cerridwen
02/12/09

@Emmersct: Certainly, I agree with your point. I was unclear in my original comment and was thinking more of the cash donations she is soliciting as well as other forms of assistance, which basically do amount to cheques that you can do anything with. Where I live, Welfare Wednesday is the worst day of the week for drug overdoses and psychiatric emergencies because people get their meagre money and immediately spend it on drugs or alcohol. A friend of mine who works in a heroin detox centre said that, oftentimes, the goal with a patient is just to get them past Wednesday. Which is, as you say, sad but not unique.
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hacienda51
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
Any money she gets should have to go into trust for the kids' benefit. With a court-appointed lawyer as trustee.
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Jamie Sommers
02/12/09

@hacienda51: I agree. I think this is the best solution, really. It allows people (rightly) concerned that any money donated to the family will be misspent by Suleman to donate to the children, who are innocents in all this, and insures that Suleman will not burden the (already bankrupt) state trying to care for the kids.
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SharonTaint
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
Honest question: Are they going to take away most of her kids? Wouldn't foster care be a better place for these babies in the event that the whole "making millions from TV" plan doesn't pan out for her?
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J.D.Regent
02/12/09

@SharonTaint: I have to think the state is going to take an interest in this case and investigate. Foster care is even more expensive than disability is though.
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J.D.Regent
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
You guys, let me just say this. Is this woman bonkers? Yes. Should she have had all those kids? No, for so many reasons. Is her publicity campaign disgusting? Totally. But we cannot make it about the family needing welfare. To do so suggests that if this loca had done all this with her own private fortune, it would be ok. And it would not be, for the same reasons it is not ok for it to be happening now. But we can't divvy up rights and responsibilities according to how much money people have or don't have. That shit's fucked up!
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Flackette Goes Retro
02/12/09

@J.D.Regent: The kids are innocent, and it sounds like they will receive all the benefits due to them under the system. That's fine. But point blank, purposely having a large number of children when you know you can't afford them is irresponsible. I know a lot of people who would like to have large families but realize that their income can only support 1 or 2 children, so they stop at that. It's called being irresponsible, toward the children and the community. It's possibly to acknowledge that the Suleman children, who are here now and deserve the best shot at life, need help while still believing the mother undertook a phenomenally irresponsible course of action.
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toast
02/12/09

@Flackette is a Red State Elitist: Right, and so by citing the financial irresponsibility over & over again, it's suggested that were she independently wealthy all this would be OK b/c she can afford to be irresponsible with babies' lives as long as it is on her own dime. That's the vibe I am getting.
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NefariousNewt
02/12/09

@toast: I'm not sure how many people think this is "OK." The whole thing, from the start, has been confusing and infuriating. It raises so many questions: Can we really limit people's ability to procreate? Do we have to support those who use public resources recklessly? What exactly is the ethical and moral responsibility of IVF clinics/doctors toward their patients? What standards do we create to ensure this doesn't happen again?
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vamusical
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
So if she makes enough money off her website, wouldn't that disqualify her for public welfare? That way at least the financial burden is transferred from the people of California to people who are STUPID enough to donate money to this lady.
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J.D.Regent
02/12/09

@vamusical: if she has enough assets, yes it would. And she is doing it so publicly that surely the public benefits officials in California will notice.
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Etoiles
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
I finally figured out why I'm angry at her. I'm angry because when a responsible family has trouble, there's no website, no publicity, no donations. When a two-parent middle-income family with one kid suddenly finds itself with disability in one parent and a layoff for the other, no-one gives a rat's ass. That family is forced, hard, into reality and has to jump through major hoops every week, every month, every year, just to keep food stamps and disability coming in. That family has to rack up debt and faces the after-effects for 20 years or more.

But she strolls down to an IVF clinic, knocks herself up hugely irresponsibly, and then doesn't understand why everyone else is boggling at her. The only way she can possibly support those children is by the grace of others: charity, donations, and government benefits. This is not a backup plan for her, this is not a last resort; this is her only avenue and she did it intentionally.

I would never send her a death threat, I believe that she has some kind of major mental problem, I feel sorry for the kids, and I am enraged at the lack of ethics on part of the fertility doctor(s). But as we've all been discussing for days, I was angry at her, too, and couldn't put my finger on why until now -- on why her irresponsibility angered me, personally.
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pandorasmittens
02/12/09

@Etoiles: That's one of the reasons I'm now upset as well. My rage was initially directed at the fertility doctors (and a large sum of it still is). But this happens EVERY DAY to less anomalous situations, and they are ignored. THEY are the ones who get grouped into the "living off the system" category. I still remember to this day when my family lost our house when my father got laid off, I remember the three jobs he worked (in addition to my mother's job) to support us because we were considered too "rich" for public assistance, with too few dependents (i.e. children), even though our family's income at the time was slightly below the average income in the US. This woman has never experienced her wages being garnished by the courts to pay for her debts, and her children will not only bare the burden of her misdeeds, but buoy up a woman who clearly needs more help than replacing the family who "never loved her".

I want the kids to be healthy and receive help. It's just that the same part of me wants their mother to have to work her ass off to get back on track, just like my family, and many other "normal" families did, and have.
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Red-headed bookworm
02/12/09

@Etoiles: Yeah, I kind of realized that myself. I know lots of people who have jobs where hours are cut or they lost their job and they have kids but they aren't on the news and aren't getting donations. I don't ask them if they have food stamps or anything like that because it's not my business. I also have known people who had to fight to get disability payments after brain cancer and then she gets all this money? How is it so easy for some and so hard for others?
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Etoiles
02/12/09

@pandorasmittens: *nod* It was my own family I was describing up there, too. And when you have to use your 11-year-old daughter's savings bonds, birthday money, and babysitting pennies to help pay the rent, only 3 days late this month...

We weren't eligible for assistance, either, and because medical was the "wrong kind" of debt I wasn't eligible for college assistance. My parents managed to buy their first house when I was 21, but because of what happened when I was in junior high, they couldn't co-sign my student loans and now my interest rates are usuriously high. I could go on and on, but there's no point: hundreds, thousands, maybe millions of Americans have stories just like it.

I just kind of want to beat the "special snowflake" sense out of her. There are some rules you shouldn't be rewarded for breaking. And yet, in the end, it always keeps coming down to: none of these 14 kids asked to be born, and they don't deserve to suffer for their mother's narcissistic idiocy.
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theysaidwhat
02/12/09

@Red-headed bookworm: Her own disability payments were not SSDI--they were worker's compensation. CA has a system that is notoriously easy to manipulate by claimants, so that doesn't surprise me. SSDI is MUCH harder to get and to keep.
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pandorasmittens
02/12/09

@Etoiles: Exactly. It sucks, because you want the kids to be able to live decent lives, but you wonder exactly how decent that life will be when the majority of income comes from public assistance and donations (not to say that will forever be the ONLY source of income), and your mother has more than a few issues? Has she said that she's done having children? Done (allegedly) emulating some movie star with far more disposable income? Does this mean she is or will be a bad mother? NO. It does however, suggest that the lessons these children will learn through observation aren't exactly conducive to a constructive life pattern.

I think we can both safely say that watching our parents slave to support us taught us a valuable lesson: life isn't fair, and the only thing you can do is work with what you've got. It makes you admire them for where they've come from. I look at how decently my mother and father are now and think, "THAT'S what I want to be".
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cwisto moweina has got yer goat
02/12/09

@Etoiles: Thank you! I'm a bit late to this thread, but it's really upsetting me how people don't understand the moral and class implications of her situation. To me, it screams of class privilege, a privilege one gets from never having to navigate the complexities of the social service system, because people who depend on the system are rightfully pissed when someone abuses it.

Gosh, I'm almost incoherent by now, huh?
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jeteplumererie
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
if she is receiving money from interviews and donations, will she still get money from the state?
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theysaidwhat
02/12/09

@jeteplumererie: It probably depends. The SSI benefits for her children would be unaffected. If she has a good enough attorney and accountant and can set up trusts and such, she may be able to hide a great deal of income. And until she is employed, she will definitely be on State-financed medical insurance.
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theysaidwhat
02/12/09

@theysaidwhat: She might even remain on state-financed medical insurance when she IS employed, considering the extra fees she'd be paying for 14 dependents might exceed her actual salary.
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J.D.Regent
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
I'm just posting to see comments, sorry.
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Kate- Kate
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
The disability payments for the children don't anger me much but the food stamps do. There is nothing wrong being on them if you have a need that is out of your control or temporarily. Losing your job after 20 years suddenly is out of your control. Having 14 kids in 7 years is something you can prevent and should if you do not have the resources to take care of them yourself.
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prestocaro fears the culling
02/12/09

@Miss Scarlett in the Hall with a revolver.: The food stamp thing also disappoints me because I don't see how she qualifies when she had the $$ for IVF. It doesn't make sense to me. Anyone care to shed some light?
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funnyface
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
I just do not see how she can even think she's going to get those kids into the school daycare. I work at a university and the waiting list for EMPLOYEES to get their kids into on campus care is at least a year PER KID.
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Trashtastic
02/12/09

@funnyface: I pay $400 a month for ONE KID.
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Flackette Goes Retro
02/12/09

@funnyface: Yeah, I work at very large university and coworkers have to apply years in advance of even getting pregnant just to get a place in the university-sponsored daycare. Employees get priority over students, too.
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PilgrimSoul
02/12/09

In reply to Following The Octuplets' Mommy Money Trail
Y'know, this woman is all kinds of fucked up, although frankly I haven't been paying that much attention myself for the same reasons I wouldn't have attended a witch-burning had I been in Salem in the seventeenth century. But, guess what, guys? Her kids don't deserve to pay for her mistakes, and we do all pay taxes so that the innocent parties in these situations don't fall through the cracks in the societal sidewalk. And yeah, it's way fucking better that way. So actually, even were I resident of California, I don't mind that she's using my tax dollars. Risk-spreading is something I strongly believe in as social policy, and you should too, not just because it's the right thing to do but also because it will prevent things like these children DYING or going into drug dealing or what have you to support themselves.
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Merkin
02/12/09

@PilgrimSoul: You do know that many EMPLOYEES of the state of California have not been paid in months, and some are going into bankruptcy because all they have is IOUs?
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Eeva
02/12/09

@PilgrimSoul: Yes. And also, for all those who are sooo concerned about the potential neglect these kids might be facing - even probably will face, if you like - it hasn't happened yet. And there are thousands of kids being abused and seriously neglected right now, how about a little airtime and a little outrage for those ones, not just the headline-grabbing total anomalies?
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funnyface
02/12/09

@PilgrimSoul: This is the conclusion I've had to come to as well. I do believe in protecting kids and keeping them from falling into extreme poverty. I just have to hope that whackos like this one are the exception. And she should definitely be under investigation to determine if she's the best person to continue to care for those kids. But I can't begrudge the kids their benefits.
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PilgrimSoul
02/12/09

@Merkin: Yep! Sucks for everybody. Still not a reason not to have these benefits.
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EkaterinaBallerina
02/12/09

@PilgrimSoul: I think what bothers me, and I say this as someone who is not a resident of CA, is that she's going to receive a large hand-out for her irresponsibility when there are many, many other families, in CA even, who will not. There are plenty of well-meaning, responsible parents out there who've been dealt a raw deal in this financial mess and no one is there to give them a leg-up. I'm more angry that the fact that in this country there are many needy children being completely ignored.
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PilgrimSoul
02/12/09

@EkaterinaBallerina: I hear you on all fronts, but I strongly believe in a strong social safety net, and I do not see this case as necessarily demonstrating an "abuse" of the same.
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J.D.Regent
02/12/09

@PilgrimSoul: THANK YOU for the sanity!!!! Kids with disabilities born to this crazy woman deserve welfare!!!
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shamlet96
02/12/09

@PilgrimSoul: As a resident of CA, and specifically LA county, I strongly disagree. While I accept that I have to help support these children now, that doesn't mean that I don't have a right to be angry at her and the doctors who did this for creating such a situation. And yes, I do view it as an "abuse" of public resources because I believe that people who are unable to properly support their children shouldn't bring them into this world. In light of all of the financial troubles that my state is facing, I think this is nothing short of an egregious abuse of public resources.
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EkaterinaBallerina
02/12/09

@PilgrimSoul: No I agree. I'm also angry that the focus is solely on those 8 babies. What about her other 6, three of whom have disabilities that likely require a lot of care and attention? Caring for 8 premature babies at once is going to be a heck of a lot of work and several of those kids are going to be neglected.
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keldo
02/12/09

@PilgrimSoul: I agree. Social services are a drag until WE need them ourselves. And in this case, with all the publicity, perhaps naysayers should get behind whatever endorsements/paid appearances she makes. It will allow this woman to keep herself off welfare and provide for her kids.
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J.D.Regent
02/12/09

@shamlet96: so, poor folk shouldn't have kids? Really?
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Jessi Ramsey
02/12/09

@PilgrimSoul: @J.D.Regent: Well I was going to say something but looks like you two have sanity and reason covered.
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dianersb was bit by a zombie
02/12/09

@PilgrimSoul: Brava! I think that too many people are forgetting that regardless of your opinion of the mother and her motives, there are 14 innocent kids involved. 14 kids who have done absolutely nothing wrong, but will obviously suffer if the state of CA does not help provide for them. While this might seem unfair to some, this is why the system is in place.
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Cerridwen
02/12/09

@PilgrimSoul: Yep. I posted something similar below. Despite the fact that Suleman has blatantly abused the system in the past does not mean that assistance is not necessary now, especially for the children with health concerns and disabilities. It sucks that she cannot afford this venture on her own, but whatever. Should the children starve as a result?
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Flackette Goes Retro
02/12/09

@shamlet96: I agree. I'm not saying a low-income woman has no right to have children, but common sense would dictate she (or any prospective parent) should think about her available resources before she has 14 of them. My parents did the math and decided they could afford 2 kids, so they had 2 of us. If they'd purposely gone for an additional 12...well, that wouldn't have been very bright or responsible.
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PilgrimSoul
02/12/09

@Flackette is a Red State Elitist: I'm not sure anyone is saying Suleman is "bright or responsible." We are probably saying that her "brightness" or "responsibility" should have no bearing on whethe she is eligible for state aid - only her financial need should be relevant.
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Penny
02/12/09

@Merkin: Where are you getting your information? There are no employees that have not been getting paid by the state. They have just started taking furloughs.

As a CA state resident, I am with PS on this.
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whatsername
02/12/09

@J.D.Regent: As someone who had that conversation, Teh Poors having kids, yesterday, for the sanity of your brain, don't go there. Bad Road
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cwisto moweina has got yer goat
02/12/09

@PilgrimSoul: Oh God, no one but some heartless bastard is saying that her kids shouldn't get the help they need. That's not the fucking issue here.

This is, at least to me, a class issue. She CREATED her need for a social safety net and her actions (her doctor's too) are ripping a pretty big hole in it for others, one that CA doesn't really need right now. It's not like she was underprivileged to begin with.

So yea, now that the kids are here we should take care of them, but that doesn't mean we can't judge what took place in creating them. The kids deserved welfare, but, as someone whose whole extended family lives in CA, I'm still really fucking pissed off that they exist.
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Jamie Sommers
02/12/09

@PilgrimSoul: If this case is not an example of an abuse of the system, what situation, in your opinion, would be?
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angelina jolie-laide is a gaudy tulip
02/12/09

@J.D.Regent: I'm not sure why the idea that people shouldn't have more kids than they can afford is so controversial. Of course, things happen. Of course, welfare is a good thing. But is it really fair to anyone (especially the kids) if someone just keeps having babies without any regard for the emotional and financial toll it will have? I don't understand.
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angelina jolie-laide is a gaudy tulip
02/12/09

@angelina jolie-laide: Also, I think that she SHOULD receive aid. I realize we're all on the same page in that regard.
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angelina jolie-laide is a gaudy tulip
02/12/09

@angelina jolie-laide: Oh, and just to clarify. I don't mean that this should be GOVERNMENT MANDATED. I'm just saying, the notion is something we should HOPE for.
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