Thank you, so much. I have two responses. 1st why do magazines aimed at women haves such shitty money advice? Glamour had a few pages this month about "money lessons you need" so eagerly I read it and um its shit like "have a 401(k)" "you need a budget" yeah NO SHIT sherlock. Why not help women realistically like "hey did you just graduate have no debt and no job? here's what you need to do, here are the useless expenses you can cut out" but they'll never do that because I have the niggling feeling women are needed to be spenders. Because we don't just shop for ourselves we shop for the household and we have a long history of being programmed to think we need beauty and health products we DON'T NEED.
Second,
I have been doing a lot of intensive therapy this year and it hit me after a year of therapy that my depression about not being the woman I was being raised to be i.e. big ring, living in the country taking care of a man and feeling like a failure because I don't even WANT those things. What I spent a year exploring was really the feminine mystique and I was born in 1978. Y'all that's just sad.
This whole men being intimidated by successful drives me crazy. Two of my exes were like this. They said they liked the fact that I was smart and independent, but when I talked about career goals and school and the like, they got upset and said it made them feel like shit. Like I was too good for them. This surprised me. It's not like my success and drive takes anything away from who they are. And what was I supposed to do? Give it all up to make them feel better? Thank God those relationships didn't work out, or I'd be supremely unhappy right now.
@Blueberry26: My ex was like that, too. He gave lip service to the idea of a strong, independent woman, because it is the "modern" thing to do, but when it came down to it, he wanted a docile little bunny who never challenged him and always made him feel like a big, strong man.
I thought Season 2 of Mad Men was absolutely glorious/heartbreaking in its focus on the three central female characters. Combined with the special feature, I couldn't tear my eyes off the tv.
Taking into account a lot of what was said in that piece, I realized that, with the likely exception of Peggy, these women are going to miss out on the "birth of the independent woman" whereas Sally Draper and the women of her generation are the ones who will get the benefits (as well as the additional struggles we still experience today) that their mothers never dreamed of. I can't wait to see where Season 3 takes us.
@Ms.Moneypenny: I did the math, and Sally Draper is a couple of years younger than my mom, who went to college and was all about equal parenting and things.
In general, I like to get my wacky financial advice from ex-sister site Consumerist.com. It lacks the pizzazz of setting aside half my paycheck for OMG SHOES, but makes up for it by reminding me that I *could* be saving hundreds by living in a shack in the woods with seven roommates and only eating homemade bread and drinking tap water from a public bathroom!
The fact we say such things as men are "intimidated" by such women rather than "intolerant" shows you messed up our very assumptions are. They always portrayed as victims and we're seen as violent threats (e.g. man-bashing). It puts all the blame on us, which is hilarious considering that even if you put all women and girls under lock and key we'll still be seen as "intimidating" (see: Afghanistan).
Actually, I read this month's Glamour en route from LAX to Chicago, and I thought their budget advice was very realistic and practical. They had sidebars from Suze Orman and other female money experts about the unique financial matters facing young women.
It wasn't exactly groundbreaking, but it did spur me to set up my budget better and really think about actually having (and, uh, occasionally contributing to) a savings account.
Did Jezebel just read my thoughts? This past week I have been thinking that in order to keep my lovely, yet low-paying career in the arts, I have to marry to someone who is rather well off. That is the reality for many of the women who work in this field. The women in higher management have been able to keep this job, buy a house, and send their kids to private schools not because of the $40K manager's wage, but because their husbands are bankers or corporate lawyers.
I suppose I do feel ashamed for feeling like I need someone else to make the money. At the same time, it feels like such a part of my reality, if I decide to continue working with art.
I am at that point where I feel as if I need to leave this field behind in order to gain more financial independence and not have to rely on a spouse for financial security. Compromises all around.
@pabs: I know a lot of people who are able to work at fulfilling, nice jobs because of the cushion provided by their spouse. It's a luxury I don't have (and probably won't have even if I do get married, considering I'm drawn to idealistic educators).
@pabs: I'm coming from the opposite side of this. I'm going to school to be a pharmacist, and, as everyone who finds out tells me, they make a good chunk of change. My boyfriend has said that if I'm making plenty of money, he'd be fine with staying at home with the future kids. Which sounds like a feminist's dream. In reality, it's made me more sympathetic to the men who've traditionally played the role of the breadwinner. It's so much pressure and really quite scary at this point because I'm nowhere near being settled. (and it's made more scary considering the persistent wage gap, though this is supposed to be a lot smaller for pharmacists for some reason)
At the same time, I'm so thankful that this opportunity is available to me. I know I would not be happy to be a stay at home mom, though I'd be taken care of. I know you're not talking about being a stay at home mom, but it's part of my train of thought. I'm also lucky that the career I want is pretty lucrative.
I do agree that men feel displaced and threatened by women's empowerment because we tried to "sell" men on any other gender rolls, and yes I do blame the men doing the selling.
There are few men at the top as attractive as a Don Draper or Sterling Cooper. Most of them are bloated, balding, aging nerds with serious self-esteem and identity issues who only ever got laid by making money and now resent women. Those are the men with the expense accounts and the vacation homes that other men envy and who sell their own desire to dominate and humiliate women to the masses.
I still believe there are a lot of men (outside New York) with whom a more progressive, less misogynistic male archetype would resonate but I don't think the men behind the curtain have any interest in promoting it.
You know, the end of this article reminds me of when Freddy Rumsen was fired - when he's in the taxi and he turns to Don and says something along the lines of, "without this job, who am I?" It's an interesting question - when a woman can do everything a man can (if not more), what does that man become? What does maleness even mean, then? I think that's a question that should be asked far more often, of both men and women, because the way things are currently are going, all these dumb prejudices are going to buckle under the weight of all the proof that women are in fact just as good as men, and I think we as a society should be ready for that. Or all move to Sweden.
@solaana: My dad is semi-retired, and he is having major issues with not "being his job" anymore. I mean, for over 30 years he was the breadwinner and guy who got things done, and now he's at loose ends. Of course, my mom was an at-home mom for a long time, and she has felt at loose ends since we left home. Anytime gender roles take away identity, they leave people adrift.
@Faster.Pussycat: haha, I also totally read that "Instead of eating out your next foursome..." and was like WOAH, this is WAY better than scunchy on the balls!
Latoya, this post was excellent, though to be fair, I've enjoyed all of your posts this week.
This article reminded me of an encounter I had with a professor of mine two years ago. I was majoring in International Politics at a top university and this man was my professor for a class on ethnic struggles and war. One day, I stopped by his office to pick up a paper I had written and he had graded. Upon handing it back to me, he complimented me on my piece and inquired about my plans post-graduation. When I told him I wanted to pursue a career in diplomacy, he looked at me and asked why I would want to do that when I could just marry a guy from a top-university because I was attractive.
Needless to say, I was livid and deeply insulted, which was compounded by that fact that he evidently thought I should be flattered that he didn't think I would "need" to work for a living and that my only reason for working my ass off to get into great schools was to find a guy who could take care of me. The point is, our society really hasn't evolved much in the past 40-50 years, and while I maybe expected this sort of attitude in some segments of society, I really was not prepared to encounter it in the rarefied realm of academia. Don't even get me started on outdated attitudes in the dating world...
I need to get this DVD and watch it with my husband. He is incredibly supportive and wonderful and thinks I'm smart and beautiful and awesome. Which is great. However, he grew up with a stay at home mother of an older generation who is also Eastern European who cleaned all day and cooked all the meals. We share housework but he wants me to do more domestic things. Which is fine but I want to cook when I want to, not when I have to. I've never been uber domestic, so it is interesting dynamic that is coming to the forefront now that we are married. I'd be very interested to see what he thought of this DVD and how it pertains to women now and more directly, me.
@kkatt: I have the same thing happening with Mr. JB. He always thought I was wonderful and has been very supportive of my career, but he grew up with a very traditional mom--who still is--and he's always a little taken aback when I'm not like that, even though he vehemently denies wanting me to be. The idea of pitching in around the house when I went back to work after having my son? Just never occurred to him. It's not in his head anywhere. My dad is nothing like that, and I naively thought all men were like my dad, just as he seems to have assumed all women were like his mother. We're sorting it out, but it really highlights the fact that no matter what you say you believe, some things are just imprinted on you at childhood.
Fantastic piece, Latoya. I need to gather my thoughts on this, because I usually end up arguing and yelling out of frustration, but agreed on every single thing.
I wish I had a copy with me of the boarding school yearbooks my great-aunt attended in the 20s, in Mexico. it was run by a group of American women and the mission statement was something along the lines of empowering young women to reach their potential, to be able to provide for themselves and be economically independent, be professionally fulfilled and to help other women achieve that too. It sounds innocuous and even a bit ridiculous, but for the time, the place, the context it was such an incredibly transgressive thing. The words jump out of the pages when juxtaposed with the images and the pictures. Proper young women in that time, being educated to strive for better things, most of them on scholarships, because those who could pay would never send their daughters to such a place. My great-grandfather apparently had fought bitterly with his own father about it, because the grandfather didn't want his granddaughters to work since it would ruin their chances of getting married. I think about that a lot, that it had to be such a terrible struggle just to let her have some education. And that even now when times are different and so many things have changed, society is still trying to veer us into one direction, where external validation is what matters for women in terms of crafting an identity, and the messages of "conform to the expectations" are everywhere.
This question has never really left us - after all, much of the fear mongering about women over-achieving or being too independent or staying single forever are really veiled ways of expressing concern about the role of men in a changing world.
here, you articulated something i've felt for a long time. many of the men i know in their 30s and 40s seem to be experiencing this, and i think it makes a lot of them feel lost.
08/14/09
Second,
I have been doing a lot of intensive therapy this year and it hit me after a year of therapy that my depression about not being the woman I was being raised to be i.e. big ring, living in the country taking care of a man and feeling like a failure because I don't even WANT those things. What I spent a year exploring was really the feminine mystique and I was born in 1978. Y'all that's just sad.
08/14/09
08/15/09
08/14/09
Taking into account a lot of what was said in that piece, I realized that, with the likely exception of Peggy, these women are going to miss out on the "birth of the independent woman" whereas Sally Draper and the women of her generation are the ones who will get the benefits (as well as the additional struggles we still experience today) that their mothers never dreamed of. I can't wait to see where Season 3 takes us.
08/14/09
08/14/09
08/14/09
08/14/09
It wasn't exactly groundbreaking, but it did spur me to set up my budget better and really think about actually having (and, uh, occasionally contributing to) a savings account.
08/14/09
I suppose I do feel ashamed for feeling like I need someone else to make the money. At the same time, it feels like such a part of my reality, if I decide to continue working with art.
I am at that point where I feel as if I need to leave this field behind in order to gain more financial independence and not have to rely on a spouse for financial security. Compromises all around.
08/14/09
08/14/09
08/14/09
At the same time, I'm so thankful that this opportunity is available to me. I know I would not be happy to be a stay at home mom, though I'd be taken care of. I know you're not talking about being a stay at home mom, but it's part of my train of thought. I'm also lucky that the career I want is pretty lucrative.
08/14/09
There are few men at the top as attractive as a Don Draper or Sterling Cooper. Most of them are bloated, balding, aging nerds with serious self-esteem and identity issues who only ever got laid by making money and now resent women. Those are the men with the expense accounts and the vacation homes that other men envy and who sell their own desire to dominate and humiliate women to the masses.
I still believe there are a lot of men (outside New York) with whom a more progressive, less misogynistic male archetype would resonate but I don't think the men behind the curtain have any interest in promoting it.
08/14/09
08/14/09
08/14/09
08/14/09
08/14/09
08/14/09
08/14/09
Yeah, I wish. Apparently, me and Stephanie Quilao live in the same dream universe.
Instead of eating out for your next foursome,
Hey, Cosmo's sex advice is getting better!
show off your cooking skills.
Oh. Never mind.
08/14/09
08/14/09
08/14/09
This article reminded me of an encounter I had with a professor of mine two years ago. I was majoring in International Politics at a top university and this man was my professor for a class on ethnic struggles and war. One day, I stopped by his office to pick up a paper I had written and he had graded. Upon handing it back to me, he complimented me on my piece and inquired about my plans post-graduation. When I told him I wanted to pursue a career in diplomacy, he looked at me and asked why I would want to do that when I could just marry a guy from a top-university because I was attractive.
Needless to say, I was livid and deeply insulted, which was compounded by that fact that he evidently thought I should be flattered that he didn't think I would "need" to work for a living and that my only reason for working my ass off to get into great schools was to find a guy who could take care of me. The point is, our society really hasn't evolved much in the past 40-50 years, and while I maybe expected this sort of attitude in some segments of society, I really was not prepared to encounter it in the rarefied realm of academia. Don't even get me started on outdated attitudes in the dating world...
08/14/09
08/14/09
"After all, the only thing the glossies seemed to peddle was obedience."
Just write your novel, Ms. Latoya. I will buy it, and you will have one reader. Then I will tell 20,000 of my closest friends.
+1
08/14/09
08/14/09
08/14/09
I wish I had a copy with me of the boarding school yearbooks my great-aunt attended in the 20s, in Mexico. it was run by a group of American women and the mission statement was something along the lines of empowering young women to reach their potential, to be able to provide for themselves and be economically independent, be professionally fulfilled and to help other women achieve that too. It sounds innocuous and even a bit ridiculous, but for the time, the place, the context it was such an incredibly transgressive thing. The words jump out of the pages when juxtaposed with the images and the pictures. Proper young women in that time, being educated to strive for better things, most of them on scholarships, because those who could pay would never send their daughters to such a place. My great-grandfather apparently had fought bitterly with his own father about it, because the grandfather didn't want his granddaughters to work since it would ruin their chances of getting married. I think about that a lot, that it had to be such a terrible struggle just to let her have some education. And that even now when times are different and so many things have changed, society is still trying to veer us into one direction, where external validation is what matters for women in terms of crafting an identity, and the messages of "conform to the expectations" are everywhere.
08/14/09
This question has never really left us - after all, much of the fear mongering about women over-achieving or being too independent or staying single forever are really veiled ways of expressing concern about the role of men in a changing world.
here, you articulated something i've felt for a long time. many of the men i know in their 30s and 40s seem to be experiencing this, and i think it makes a lot of them feel lost.