The one concept that I haven't really seen addressed here is that in the book since we are seeing everything from the perspective of the psychopathic killer, it is hard to separate what he imagines the woman feels versus what he hopes she feels. Isn't he really an unreliable narrator? I haven't read the book in awhile. I'll have to drag it out again and reread that part.
Also loved the film version of "The Grifters". Never saw "The Getaway" so I can't compare, but the The Grifters was a masterpiece. #violenceagainstwomen
You know what is even grosser than the trailer itself? The fact that this trailer keeps showing up on certain sites devoted to nothing but the objectification of "hot" celebrity women's bodies in the context of "Oh, look at Jessica Alba's bare ass! Isn't she so hot?!" If that isn't the sexualization and glorification of violence against women, I don't know what is. I'm beginning to think that the reaction to the film may be even more telling than the film itself. #violenceagainstwomen
It seems to me that it will be "good" in an Irreversible sort of way. (ie, extremely disturbing but unlike any other film experience to date).
That's giving it a lot of credit though. #violenceagainstwomen
@geeurock: It is so difficult to describe that film because I can't say it was "good" and I can't recommend it and I can't say it is my FAVORITE film, but it affected me more than any other film I have ever witnessed. The club scene, the disorientation, the way it was shot, everything. There is nothing else like it. Period. Thus my problem. I usually describe it as awesome (the true definition of the word) Terrible and beautiful all rolled into one. #violenceagainstwomen
@curiousgeorgiana: Yes, it was horrific and I feel like I am better for having seen it but I would never ever want to see it again. #violenceagainstwomen
I haven't read the book, so I can't comment on the story... but the simple fact that they chose Jessica Alba and Kate Hudson as the leading ladies makes me think this will not be good. That, and this clip was somehow both horrifying and boring for me to watch. #violenceagainstwomen
@Penny: It was groundbreaking; the first written entirely first-person from the psychopath's POV. Don't worry, you won't be feeling any pity for him, just disgust. He's a horrible horrible monster. It's fascinating and gripping all the same. But also somewhat depressing, so wait until you're in the right mood before you tackle it. Jim Thompson is a great writer - he also wrote The Grifters, which they made into a good film, and many other books which have been made into crap films.
@Penny: Me too. I love a good serial killer/psycopath/super violent book. Movies rarely do them justice, though (see: Red Dragon). #violenceagainstwomen
@Diziet_Sma: In a similar vein, Dorothy B Hughes' 1947 novel In a Lonely Place was an even earlier psychopath novel (male) from his POV but not first person. Very good novel.
Edited by JerkoftheMonth is changing her name! at 11/10/09 5:59 PM
JerkoftheMonth is changing her name! was starred
JerkoftheMonth is changing her name! was unstarred
@FroderickFronkensteen: I know!! I was just reading innocently along, like, "okay, okay, bad movie, rapey rape----CASEY AFFLECK?! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" #violenceagainstwomen
"So unless Winterbottom is willing to delve into the dynamics of consent/control, The Killer Inside Me will be no better than a snuff film."
Uh, what?
Have you read the (seriously excellent) book? That's kind of just what it does (like a lot of other Thompson novels, the best being The Getaway). Thompson was a really excellent writer (he also wrote The Grifters which Stephen Frears made into a terrific movie with Anjelica Huston and John Cusack) and it seems like a bizarrely reactionary statement to drag out the "snuff film" line in response to this clip. (Also, it just makes no sense. Do you actually know what a snuff film is? I'd venture to say that no matter how disturbing this film could possibly be, it will be better than a snuff film.)
BTW, this isn't the trailer for the film. It's a reel to show to distributors to sell the film, not meant for audiences to see. They don't generally make five minute+ trailers.
Anyway, I honestly can't wait to see this. Winterbottom is a talented director, and Casey Affleck is all good to me after his last couple of performances. Speaking of which, that's the Nick Cave/Warren Ellis score from The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford that's being used at the end of the trailer. Beautiful score, beautiful movie.
I too am a fan of Jim Thompson's work. I am also a female forensic psychologist with ties to the film business - I have a slightly different view to offer the discussion:
This is not a movie about your average guy who gets an inch to hurt a woman and then gets rewarded for it -it's a movie about a Psychopath who is clearly introduced to us as such and who acts like a psychopath throughout the film...I mean, I am sure I am a little hardened to the shock, but why evem watch a film about a film called "the killer inside me" if you have a problem with violence against anyone -including women.
This kind of thing happens - more often than you might want to think - closer to home than we care to know. Believe me, I've worked with the psychopaths as a Corrections Psychologist.
I personally feel there is an aspect viewers may miss - the idea that the "killer inside me" might also refers to the darkside of ALL the characters in the film - not just the deranged killer who wear his darkness on his sleeve for us to see. There are women in this world (as unbelieveable as it may seem) that WOULD enjoy an unexpected whipping - but would never breath that confession to anyone. I have seen this in women who commit degarding acts for money (not unlike prostitution) that when all else is stripped away they can admit they want to be "punished" so they can feel redeemed.
However the sad reality is, those women (and men) who associate with those who will indulge thier darkside should be aware that it's a dangerous line to be walking with someone.
I don't know, ultimately I believe in personal accountability. But as I mentioned, I have a unqiue perspective on the topic!
I am a horror movie fan and my tastes in that genre tends to lean towards the movies that are difficult for most people to watch. For example, I have watched and enjoyed movies such as The Devil's Rejects, Last House On The Left (original), and I Spit On Your Grave.
For me, this movie isn't in the same category as those movies. Horror films, even when dealing with subject matter in the realm of possibility, always has a feel of the fantastical. This movie has a realistic feel to it. We are getting a glimpse into the deep, dark recesses of the human psyche. I think an open and honest portrayal of these more frightening elements of humanity are important and valid. In order to address our negative qualities we must first admit to and understand them. #violenceagainstwomen
On the topic of showing rape on tv, it always shocks me that such a thing is allowed while people freak out about Gossip Girl?! I mean, this sounds really lame, but I've seen horrible rape scenes on shows like Cold Case. Cold Case people!! It is disgusting that these scenes are allowed on air. #violenceagainstwomen
@vamvaki_poulaki: So are you for censorship? Shouldn't all things, horrible or not, that happen in real life be shown in tv and movies and written about in novels? #violenceagainstwomen
@JerkoftheMonth: Well, I was just surprised that something more graphic than appears in some movies was on TV at like, 7 at night, whereas SNL has to come on late at night in case they accidentally curse or so they can make silly jokes. It just doesn't seem even. I think people can write/act/produce things about rape, stories should be told, I just didn't expect to be disturbed by a scene in Cold Case.
This is a long-standing source of conflict for me. I am a big fan of Jim Thompson's, Peter Mathiessen's and Cormac McCarthy's (I love The Road but mostly the other stuff) work. Their work contains graphic violence - toward men, women AND children but more than that, the writing is beautiful and the historical context appeals to me.
On the other hand, I abhor violence against women in all mediums - particularly television which almost makes gratuitous violence innocuous.
Why don't I have a problem with violence in literature? Why didn't I think twice while reading The Killer Inside Me when I could barely get through the trailer? #violenceagainstwomen
@winner: Because in the right hands, exploring issues of violence is not the same as glorifying them. If we never explore these issues we will never understand them and be able to prevent and/or deal with violence in a productive manner. #violenceagainstwomen
@winner: @bluebears: I don't disagree but why do you think that is? Just because it's a cerebral medium while film is (clearly) visual? I doubt your imagination would be that off what they have presented? Is it because film has the leftover connotation of being a lesser medium?Truly curious, I do not know myself.
I happen to be a person who enjoys cinematic violence be it TV, video games, etc and it has always been hard to reconcile my enjoyment of it and the ideas/images it put out into the world where it wont always be filtered through a basic human decency screen.
I'm afraid to even argue my complete point because I'm positive of its unpopularity.
@TransFat: I don't abhor ALL violence on film. But I do find that it tends to be more exploitative than literature just because its visual. For example, lingering shots of a woman's boobs or ass, or open mouth etc...It's the way its sexualized to much larger degree (in my opinion, with some exceptions) once its put on film. #violenceagainstwomen
On screen, it's as if the violence showcases a woman's vulnerability and sexuality. It's almost always done in a manner which forces us to pass judgment on the woman rather than the man. In literature, when considering the three authors I mentioned above, the violent acts are illustrative of the main (male) character who you've grown close to through hundreds of pages and many hours. I find myself questioning my ideas of morality, but I can't remember applying those questions to the victims in the novels.
@bluebears: I think that has its place. But there is no argument there for either of us. It's an exploitation film maneuver and, once again, it's hard to admit to enjoying that genre while knowing full well the message it will send to barking loonies and frat boys.
@bluebears: Yeah the focus tends to be different, the intent can be questionable. If a graphic rape scene in a book made constant sexual/sensual references to breasts, asses, pouty lips, instead of the pain, terror, helplessness, etc experienced by the victim I would find it problematic (unless it was supposed to be rape roleplay, and therefore consensual). Books can be more internal.
Movies are by their very nature external. Because of this the film medium gives creators a chance to imply sexuality, sexiness, arousal, while explicitly showing the terror, so it is much more insidious IMHO... we can hear a woman screaming in pain and terror but what we see is close up shots of her various body parts obviously designed to titillate. For instance, with this particular preview, the takeaway for many men will be "Did you see Jessica Alba's ass?"
@winner: "It's almost always done in a manner which forces us to pass judgment on the woman rather than the man."
But the whole raison d'etre of the book, The Killer Inside Me, is to pass judgment on the man, and the negative aspects of masculinity in general. I feel sure the film will do the same, since Winterbottom is such an intelligent and sensitive filmmaker. #violenceagainstwomen
@bluebears: Yes! And I think it's also important to note that, in general, visual representations of acts of violence might allow for broader interpretation (i.e. "she likes it") because the characters' inner thoughts or emotions are being fully described. Obviously the written word can be interpreted in a myriad of ways, but if a scene from a book describes what is happening in each characters' mind, then the viewer can't as easily project their own thoughts (e.g. "because of this scene in the movie, jessica alba and therefore all women enjoy rape!") #violenceagainstwomen
@bluebears: I agree. I am not against the portrayal of violence in any medium (literary or cinematic or theatrical or otherwise) per se, but the difference between glorifying and exploring is crucial. For example, Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus is a great example. It is horrifically violent and some of the worst of it is played out on a woman's body. But it explores the nature of trauma in an extraordinarily nuanced way (for example, the structure of the play mimics the repetitive nature of trauma). The violence is not there just for the sake of titillating an audience. I agree it is hard to draw the line sometimes and evaluate the presence of critical exploration vs. pornographic glorification. The sexualization of violence is often a pretty good indicator of whether it is being glorified or not. Violence shown in its reality is not sexy or glamorous. Also, the contextualization of the violence beyond the perpetrator being shown as "sick fucks" is important. The Wire is a good example of this. Compare it to something like Grand Theft Auto. The Wire shows a lot of pretty awful violence but it breaks down why this violence happens, it shows the aftermath and consequences of the violence (other than "the bad man gets his comeuppance"), it provides both a critical and sympathetic eye on the perpetrators of the violence and places the violence in a larger social, political and economic context. In GTA, you literally assume the persona of the perp and are encouraged to perform what amount to heinous acts of violence with no consequences to your actions and no contextualization other than a flimsy, glamourized backstory. As for literary representations of violence, I wouldn't automatically categorize them as non-exploitative. I just think they are much more likely to be non-exploitative because literature is a medium much more conducive to providing this kind of critical insight. #violenceagainstwomen
@Diziet_Sma: Right, that's what I'm saying; in the book, we judge the main character (here, a man). In the movie, Jessica Alba as Joyce makes me nervous. It's too easy to impose ideas about her acting or her celebrity or her sexuality on the character. She's not the blank slate that her character required.
I think of him as a very British filmmaker so I am excited to see Michael Winterbottom's Oklahoma. #violenceagainstwomen
@winner: I know what you mean. But it's extremely hard to get films funded - especially now - without casting 'names'; more and more I find myself preferring movies with 'unknown' actors.
He's doing Oklahoma! ? Wow. I love how he skips around from genre to genre, and is good in all of them. Truly, a unique filmmaker.
@Diziet_Sma: I KNOW! I thought the same thing about The Changeling!
And ha! Oklahoma is where he's filming The Killer Inside Me. But good lord I'd love to see a Winterbottom musical! Somehow I think Little Shop of Horrors would be right up his alley... #violenceagainstwomen
@winner: Sorry, I edited out The Changeling bit because I thought it was a bit off topic - but I'm glad you responded. I was genuinely surprised by that film. I only went to see it because a friend wanted to, but it was great on so many levels - dark, empowering, unpredictable, stunning period design and costumes. The only weakness was Jolie, not necessarily because she's a bad actress, but because at this point she is simply too famous for me to forget and entirely lose myself in the story. Also, her huge red lips just kept jumping out at me and were way distracting. If they'd toned down the lipstick a little, it may have helped.
Also, re: Oklahoma - ha! Best crossed wire of the day! Now I really want to see him do it.
What is the purpose of movies like this? The books it's based on is trashy pulp fiction, not a nuanced exploration of a difficult topic. #violenceagainstwomen
This looks truly awful - but a snuff film is one in which someone actually (not fictionally) gets killed on camera. And I hope no more of them ever get made. #violenceagainstwomen
@kellybones: Supposedly, yes. And it's possible I saw one at a drive in in the late seventies - but it could have been just really good special effects. We left before we threw up. #violenceagainstwomen
Great job in summing up what is so disturbing about the premise of this movie Katy. I'm going to bookmark this page so I can forward this to everyone I know when this moving comes out and people ask me what the "big deal" is. #violenceagainstwomen
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Also loved the film version of "The Grifters". Never saw "The Getaway" so I can't compare, but the The Grifters was a masterpiece. #violenceagainstwomen
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I don't mind horror movies either, but this one crosses a line. #violenceagainstwomen
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Signed,
A proud Okie #violenceagainstwomen
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That's giving it a lot of credit though. #violenceagainstwomen
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You already made Patrick Wilson a pedophile, don't ruin Casey Affleck for me too.
Sincerely,
Froderick #violenceagainstwomen
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Uh, what?
Have you read the (seriously excellent) book? That's kind of just what it does (like a lot of other Thompson novels, the best being The Getaway). Thompson was a really excellent writer (he also wrote The Grifters which Stephen Frears made into a terrific movie with Anjelica Huston and John Cusack) and it seems like a bizarrely reactionary statement to drag out the "snuff film" line in response to this clip. (Also, it just makes no sense. Do you actually know what a snuff film is? I'd venture to say that no matter how disturbing this film could possibly be, it will be better than a snuff film.)
BTW, this isn't the trailer for the film. It's a reel to show to distributors to sell the film, not meant for audiences to see. They don't generally make five minute+ trailers.
Anyway, I honestly can't wait to see this. Winterbottom is a talented director, and Casey Affleck is all good to me after his last couple of performances. Speaking of which, that's the Nick Cave/Warren Ellis score from The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford that's being used at the end of the trailer. Beautiful score, beautiful movie.
11/10/09
This is not a movie about your average guy who gets an inch to hurt a woman and then gets rewarded for it -it's a movie about a Psychopath who is clearly introduced to us as such and who acts like a psychopath throughout the film...I mean, I am sure I am a little hardened to the shock, but why evem watch a film about a film called "the killer inside me" if you have a problem with violence against anyone -including women.
This kind of thing happens - more often than you might want to think - closer to home than we care to know. Believe me, I've worked with the psychopaths as a Corrections Psychologist.
I personally feel there is an aspect viewers may miss - the idea that the "killer inside me" might also refers to the darkside of ALL the characters in the film - not just the deranged killer who wear his darkness on his sleeve for us to see. There are women in this world (as unbelieveable as it may seem) that WOULD enjoy an unexpected whipping - but would never breath that confession to anyone. I have seen this in women who commit degarding acts for money (not unlike prostitution) that when all else is stripped away they can admit they want to be "punished" so they can feel redeemed.
However the sad reality is, those women (and men) who associate with those who will indulge thier darkside should be aware that it's a dangerous line to be walking with someone.
I don't know, ultimately I believe in personal accountability. But as I mentioned, I have a unqiue perspective on the topic!
11/10/09
For me, this movie isn't in the same category as those movies. Horror films, even when dealing with subject matter in the realm of possibility, always has a feel of the fantastical. This movie has a realistic feel to it. We are getting a glimpse into the deep, dark recesses of the human psyche. I think an open and honest portrayal of these more frightening elements of humanity are important and valid. In order to address our negative qualities we must first admit to and understand them. #violenceagainstwomen
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On the other hand, I abhor violence against women in all mediums - particularly television which almost makes gratuitous violence innocuous.
Why don't I have a problem with violence in literature? Why didn't I think twice while reading The Killer Inside Me when I could barely get through the trailer? #violenceagainstwomen
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I happen to be a person who enjoys cinematic violence be it TV, video games, etc and it has always been hard to reconcile my enjoyment of it and the ideas/images it put out into the world where it wont always be filtered through a basic human decency screen.
I'm afraid to even argue my complete point because I'm positive of its unpopularity.
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On screen, it's as if the violence showcases a woman's vulnerability and sexuality. It's almost always done in a manner which forces us to pass judgment on the woman rather than the man. In literature, when considering the three authors I mentioned above, the violent acts are illustrative of the main (male) character who you've grown close to through hundreds of pages and many hours. I find myself questioning my ideas of morality, but I can't remember applying those questions to the victims in the novels.
Something is, most certainly, lost in translation. #violenceagainstwomen
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Movies are by their very nature external. Because of this the film medium gives creators a chance to imply sexuality, sexiness, arousal, while explicitly showing the terror, so it is much more insidious IMHO... we can hear a woman screaming in pain and terror but what we see is close up shots of her various body parts obviously designed to titillate. For instance, with this particular preview, the takeaway for many men will be "Did you see Jessica Alba's ass?"
I find this problematic and disturbing. #violenceagainstwomen
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Movies are by their very nature external. "
exactly. #violenceagainstwomen
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But the whole raison d'etre of the book, The Killer Inside Me, is to pass judgment on the man, and the negative aspects of masculinity in general. I feel sure the film will do the same, since Winterbottom is such an intelligent and sensitive filmmaker. #violenceagainstwomen
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I think of him as a very British filmmaker so I am excited to see Michael Winterbottom's Oklahoma. #violenceagainstwomen
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He's doing Oklahoma! ? Wow. I love how he skips around from genre to genre, and is good in all of them. Truly, a unique filmmaker.
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And ha! Oklahoma is where he's filming The Killer Inside Me. But good lord I'd love to see a Winterbottom musical! Somehow I think Little Shop of Horrors would be right up his alley... #violenceagainstwomen
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Also, re: Oklahoma - ha! Best crossed wire of the day! Now I really want to see him do it.
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