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Grace Relations
New York, 1:44 AM
Mon Nov 9
19 posts in the last 24 hours
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01/14/09
Secondly, "The feeling of being systematically oppressed and devalued in a country that was built by the hands of my ancestors, that has been sustained greatly by the manpower and wit of my people."
These statements have validity but they overreach in their scope. She ignores the role of all immigrants in the making of America, which is insulting (the same insult that she feels at having her ancestral contribution ignored). Also, it is just as positive to say that white people keep America running as it is to say that black people do.
She's not doing much to clarify her position, only digging a deeper hole for herself.
01/14/09
(On another note, probably not the best idea to equate slaves with "immigrants." Just for future reference.)
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01/14/09
I don't think jokes about race are funny. I don't like jokes about whites, blacks, hispanics, jews, koreans, whatever, I think they're counter-productive, as seen by this little incident here. What did this do except create a rift between Barack Obama's white supporters and his black supporters? I mean, Jesus Banana.
01/14/09
Well, it did get a lot of dialogue going. I get the impression that there are a few more Jezzies who have learned something about privlige, been linked to some great essays by Tim Wise, etc. If I recall there have been several comments in which people have said something to the effect of "thank you for explaining this" etc.
Also, I really admire the phrase "Jesus Banana." :)
01/14/09
I saw that post, and clicked through to read the blog, and my opinion was this:
This is obviously SUPPOSED to be funny. And it is a little funny. But it's not written well enough to make that clear to everyone. People are not going to react well to this one.
And I must have been looking into the future.
I think the whole thing was a misstep on EVERYBODIES part, and I'm just glad I stayed out of it till now.
01/14/09
I sa-wore I wouldn't commenting about this but just because you didn't like or get it doesn't mean it was not well written. Fuck.
01/14/09
But my point is this: Some people just aren't going to like what you write or how you write, and today you were feted up and down by people who did. Focus on them, and how powerful this conversation is, and give yourself a nice, big slice of cake.
01/15/09
However, the discussion Sister Toldja's blog sparked here has been really informative and, on balance, positive - I'm sure I'm not the only person who has had her/his ideas shaken up! And in the context of consciousness-raising, I'd say that's more important than literary merit. So, for that, I thank Sister Toldja.
01/15/09
01/14/09
Does this election mean more to black people because the president is black? Maybe. Did Kennedy's election mean more to Catholics because Kennedy was Catholic? Maybe. But I don't think so. I think Kennedy's election and inauguration meant more to young people because Kennedy was Hope, and Future, and Chance, and Opportunity. I think Barack Obama's role as the first black president is more potently felt in the black community, and that doesn't surprise me in the least, but I think the people who are really the most affected by this are young people (ALL young people), because, again, Obama is Hope, and Future, and Chance, and Opportunity.
Which is to say that the one thing the race debate in America so often completely misses is that, in so many ways, we are all the same. Yes, yes, yes, our experiences as black, white, Hispanic, Asian, Jewish, Muslim, men and women are all different, shaded and nuanced in ways that we will never be able to understand fully. But so much of who we are and how we live is the same. So we can address the differences, the shades of understanding that are needed to really move into a post-racial America, I think, only if we can recognize that, at the end of the day, we are more alike than we are different.
It has always been the belief that we are more the same than our outsides suggest that has fuelled all equality movements to begin with. Where did we lose that part of it? It doesn't take a genius to realize our lives and our histories are different. It takes effort to keep in mind how much we are the same.
(And I, by no means, am an example of someone who can do that all the time. I have moments of totally idiotic superficiality. But I try to work through it, work past it. At least I try.)
01/14/09
Obama's message and mission have a firm basis in his experiences as an African-American ... without that he wouldn't be the man he is, who also happens to be the best man right now for the most important job in the world. That means something. We ARE all the same in many ways, but our differences also do shape us and can be valuable ... if we choose to use them that way, which our POTUS-elect clearly has.
01/14/09
I'm not white but I must have half a brain because I didn't laugh(It's amazing that I'm able to type under such crippling circumstances)
01/14/09
For the 99th billion time, the central wish was not sincere. It. Was. Joke.
01/14/09
01/14/09
I sincerely expressed my frustration with White liberals, but it is ridiculous to imagine that I could actually ask White people to stay home. Like, I would have been ridic for doing so. I don't back down from the fact that I think the Inaug holds more meaning to Blacks, but I wasn't actually asking people to stay home. And I find it insulting that you are pretty much calling me a liar when I tell you otherwise.
01/14/09
I know you think I'm dumb, but I knew that was an exaggeration. An exaggeration of a real sentiment, further clarified in my response to you, but, sorry, pretending that's what it's all about doesn't make your whole thing beyond reproach. You've rudely dismissed all criticisms as if it were all a joke, when folks here are mad about two things
1)The thinly veiled true stuff, which even someone with half a brain(me) can see plainly, but you've been denying "It. Was. Joke." Thanks for the caveman speak, btw, it's more my speed.
2)the copious insults, in your initial post, all over the boards here, and in your sarcastic apology.
I'm just trying to parse out what you mean here. Now, I find the irony kind of unbelievable, that you would call out anyone else for insulting you...but maybe it's more super advanced joke-telling, waay over my head.
01/14/09
This is basically the same conversation we had yesterday, but instead of male/female relationships, it was black/white relationships and the roles were reversed. In the same way some of the male commenters were defensive, some of the white commenters were defensive yesterday. A week prior we wanted empathy for our experiences that are unique to our gender, but yesterday we (and I see we because it's easier, not because I am talking about everyone who commented) couldn't do that for similar experiences that were based on race, not gender.
This is getting a bit lengthy and I can't think of how better to explain my point, but I think this Simpsons line best sums it up: "I hope the irony's not lost on you, Simpson."
01/14/09
01/14/09
Not meaning to contradict but rather to expand the conversation: On the one hand, there really is point beyond which I cannot understand the experience of my interlocutor, be they African-American, male, Palestinian, gay. On the other hand, we really mustn't lump people into "their" groups, denying them agency and defining them by the experiences of people who happen to look like them. On the third hand, I can't really be blamed for not understanding, say, a man's experience, or he, mine. All we can do is discuss it, and be respectful of that place of difference.
I guess that's what I'm looking for. That place of respect where we can just say "Huh. You really are different from me."
01/14/09
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01/14/09
However, it brought to light a frustration that I've had with Jezzy for a long time: the tendency to devalue comments made by people of color. In personal messages sent between us, more than a few Black Jezzies have told me about their frustrations and concerns about this matter and how it keeps us from feeling heard. I think some people get so fucking punch-drunk on their belief that they are open-minded, non-prejudice, free-thinkers who buck "The Man" and his system, that they are closed to any criticism about how they can do a better job or areas in which they may be lacking. The only thing that frustrated me about the comments...and I read them all...was the resistance to being criticized, admonished or corrected. This is a clear sign that (like it or not) you've swallowed the societal poison that says that "white is right". I also learned that white people - whether in seriousness or jest - do NOT like to be told that they can't do something. Nobody does, really. But a few took it extra hard.
I cannot tell you how to be non-racist. In the words of Toni Morrison, I cannot be the patient and the doctor. This is a discussion that must be had among yourselves and which must permeate into all of your relationships. That will be the only road to real change. Still, a good start would be actually giving us a receptive space to air our grievances without being defensive or disparaging. I read the post and funny or not, I knew it was not meant literally.
01/14/09
01/14/09
But I wonder if you would mind giving me an example of the tendency to devalue statements made by people of color? Do you feel that this happens when the discussion is about racism, or the various conversations that touch on racism (ie: "I love our new Black President!", etc), or is it generally throughout the threads? I've seen this, of course, done by certain commenters on certain threads dealing directly with race, but it is not something that I would say I've seen elsewhere. But I'm white, so I might not see it when it's right there. And it disturbs and worries me no matter where it shows up. Would you mind talking about this a little more?
01/14/09
01/14/09
Not to long ago, there was a discussion on the use of the word nude in describing color. And instead of discussing the inherent racism that still persists in our day to day vernacular, I had to sift through hundreds of comments of how it's "no big deal because those stockings don't match my pasty ass, either". This is totally NOT the point. Please don't co-opt our pain or act as though we're affected by the same things in the same way. What's an inconvenience in hosiery for you is a lifetime of not being able to find anything that matches by skin tone because the media chooses to pretend that my brand of beauty is nonexistent. I've wanted to scream more than once "it's not the same fucking thing". IDK, I'm rambling. I hope you get some of what I'm saying. If not, I'm sorry. This is the first time I've directly addressed this frustration, so my argument's not fully developed.
01/14/09
I think that generally, telling someone to get over themselves (which is essentially what stuff like those "well these hose don't match my ass either" comments are) is a really ill-considered idea. (Unless of course two people are close and share a real bond).
I cannot possibly know what it's like to Black in this society. I can guess, I can see things that look like that would bother me more and things that would bother me less, but it's all guess-work. This is why I've started to ask questions, sometimes questions that feel really embarrassing to me to ask. But I figure, if I'm going to irritate someone with over-earnestness, that's better than offending them with ignorance.
I'm sorry that you have had that experience here, and I think that I will try to step up and point it out when I see it, myself. I like that this is a place where people often do that for each other. I guess I think that it's the least we can do.
01/14/09
01/14/09
Jezebel does this all the time. Comparing tanning to skin whitening is one of the ones the really upsets me.
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01/14/09
Also, being asked what they could do to end racism. I wish I wasn't held up as the oracle of the minorities all of the time.
Most of the time these posts devolve into Racism 101. I have to explain things that I've known about (like white privilege) since I was 8.
01/14/09
But (you knew there was a but coming) I do think that on a certain level, this is a price we have to pay most days to have a functioning, evolving society. If we don't ask questions, and we don't explain ourselves (ad infinitum), we can't move forward. Some days we can certainly say we're tired and choose not to do it, but most days, I think we really just have to knuckle under.
Having said that, that is part of why I love being around Jews during our own holidays. Because I can say and do and be what I want and who I am, and just be at home in my own head and skin.
01/14/09
I think if Jezebel ever starts a book club I am going to suggest that everybody read "How to Rent a Negro."
[www.amazon.com]
01/14/09
Yes and Yes. You are on a roll. Just the other day there was a thread about Prince Henry calling his friend a "Paki" and everyone jumped on me when I said it was offensive because you know Prince Henry was just being funny. But black people can't be funny in the same way. ..right (not even that it is the same because Sister was trying to create a satire that said something about society where Prince Henry was just making an off hand remark, oh and the whole race/power dynamic that has been discussed on this thread).
01/14/09
More than anything, I think Sista Toldja was trying to say that white Americans may need to take this time to reflect on how race relations can be improved from their own perspective. Perhaps by rectifying their own behavior and the ways in which they are complicit in keeping this old wheel turning. And this moment of reflection and rectification is not limited solely to white people. POCs have some issues to address, some axes to bury and a few loads to leave by the wayside. Still, coming to terms with the direct and indirect ways in which we are all affected by race will be different for people of color and Caucasians because we simply have a different weight to carry. However, many of the arguments that I was hearing yesterday were focused on a perceived slight that the white Jezzies felt that ST made. That she would even insinuate that there presence was not wanted, was met with much animosity and verbal abuse (check out the comment section on her page). And it ended up sounding very babyish because many of the arguments were along the lines of "reverse racism", "you can't tell me what to do" or "why do you get to do it, if I can't" which is largely the same reaction I hear when discussing why it's not okay for whites to use the n-word. I think it is a peculiar sense of white privilege and entitlement not to accept that there may be certain areas in which a white presence is not necessary or wanted. That's not to say that the inauguration is this occasion, because it's not. Still, sometimes I feel that some Caucasians want an all-access pass into everything, even situations like the one I mentioned about pantyhose. Instead of saying, "damn, that sucks" there were hundreds of people downplaying the prevalence of this kind of racism and instead preaching to me about how they too, have been hurt, so obvs, my pain is not valid and not motivated by racism.
I also feel that Jezebel courted this disaster, by framing the topic as they did and only now mentioning what was glaringly obvious to so many…it was satire.
01/14/09
01/14/09
This.
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01/14/09
I'm about to produce some random musings, and I'm not sure I have any real point. Just so you are all forewarned...
I am mixed-race: half Black and half White. I am not sure whether that means that I should be able to identify with Sister Toldja's posts or not. But I don't. That's not to mean that I don't comprehend what she's saying--it just doesn't reflect my own experience. I guess that's like it is allegedly for a White person reading it.
If I have personally experienced racism in my life, I have been blissfully unaware of it. This is not at all to say that I'm dumb enough to think that there is no racism, that we are a post-race society, or that institutional racism isn't a huge problem. I'm just saying that I am aware of these things on an intellectual level, but don't have the deep understanding that actual experience is supposed to cause.
I guess what I am getting at is whether it's expected that all Black people will indeed get it on the deep, experiential level while no White people can. And if so, isn't that a huge oversimplification that ignores the huge differences among us within groups such as "Black" and "White"? After all, if we can't really understand someone without experiencing what they've experienced, that means that the only person one can ever understand is oneself. And that would mean that one Black person can't truly understand another Black person, either.
Either no one can ever understand anyone else, or we can understand others based on our being similar rather than identical. And if we can understand each other based on similarities, there's no reason those similarities and understanding can't cross racial lines.
Again, I didn't read the comments from yesterday, so I am in no way defending any comments that were made. In no way am I trying to saying that anything that anyone says is valid or non-offensive because we're all one happy, similar family. Some people won't get "it" or will be plain old racist/prejudiced. I'm just commenting on the general assumption that people of the same race will uniformly be able to understand each other better than people of different races can understand each other.
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01/14/09
All people must work to destroy it, not just one group.
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01/14/09
"racism will only cease to exist if the OPPRESSORS work to destroy it"
I know you intelligent men and women read and are aware of world politics and news; not all oppressors are "white"
01/14/09
If that's not racism, I don't know what is.
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01/14/09
Men have male privilege, the rich have socioeconomic privilege, heterosexuals have sexuality privilege, white people have race privilege, able bodied people have able bodied privilege, slender people have body privilege. It does not mean all these groups are actively trying to keep down the oppressed groups, it that these constructs are reinforced by society. And in order to tear these constructs apart the groups with the privilege need to work to destroy it.
imagine persons who are able bodied, as opposed to those with disabilities. If I were to say that able-bodied persons have certain advantages, certain privileges if you will, which disabled persons do not, who would argue the point? I imagine that no one would. It's too obvious, right? To be disabled is to face numerous obstacles. And although many persons with disabilities overcome those obstacles, this fact doesn't take away from the fact that they exist. Likewise, that persons with disabilities can and do overcome obstacles every day, doesn't deny that those of us who are able-bodied have an edge. We have one less thing to think and worry about as we enter a building, go to a workplace, or just try and navigate the contours of daily life. The fact that there are lots of able-bodied people who are poor, and some disabled folks who are rich, doesn't alter the general rule: on balance, it pays to be able-bodied.
That's all I'm saying about white privilege: on balance, it pays to be a member of the dominant racial group. It doesn't mean that a white person will get everything they want in life, or win every competition, but it does mean that there are general advantages that we receive. --Tim Wise
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There is nothing wrong with addressing our privileges, everyone. When we do so it makes it easier to work towards breaking it down and becoming allies for all different oppressed groups. We must make an effort to learn about the experiences of everyone.
01/14/09
I get Sister Toldja's point that people of color shouldn't have to frame everything so that white people feel comfortable in the discussion, but I'm not convinced that either of the posts made anyone examine their own white priveledge or re-examine their view of race in America. It obviously didn't have to, but it does make me wish Jez has skipped it.
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