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New York, 10:57 PM
Fri Dec 18
73 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of JanaNye JanaNye
    12/09/09

    In reply to Face/Off
    My pet peeve is being told to smile. I just have one of those pissed off looking faces. People tell me I look intimidating and and don't look approachable so when I'm out I count in my head and smile on the third count. I don't think it works.
     Reply
    maude_flanders promoted this comment JanaNye was starred JanaNye was unstarred
    Image of maude_flanders maude_flanders
    12/09/09

    @JanaNye: I hate it too. I think I have one of those faces--even when I'm totally relaxed, if I'm slightly anxious or tired, people see it. I've gotten better about it, but it's hard, because my mouth seems to naturally tuck down at the corners anyway.

    To some extent, I understand why it's good to look approachable, but there are times when I'm pissed off and don't really give a shit what some unwelcome audience thinks if I want to scowl to myself.

    Anyway, yeah, I can sympathize...it CAN feel humiliating when a someone blithely demands that you smile (especially and unsurprisingly from strangers...and strange men, who feel the need to comment on a woman's appearance simply b/c she has the gall to be out in public).
     Reply
    maude_flanders was starred maude_flanders was unstarred
    Image of JanaNye JanaNye
    12/09/09

    @maude_flanders: Thanks Maude. I work in patient care which is essentially customer service. So when the crotchety old man approaches me and tells me 'smile honey its not that bad' I'd rather punch him in the face than give him the satisfaction of smiling. Maybe this is why I haven't been promoted....
     Reply
    JanaNye was starred JanaNye was unstarred
    Image of maude_flanders maude_flanders
    12/09/09

    @JanaNye: ugh....that's the worst part. It's bad enough when I'm walking down the street and may just be having a bad day. Unless I'm frowning AT you, don't demand that I "smile" when I'm exhausted or worried, and at WORK.

    That's the kind of crap that makes me a little ageist....anticipating senility/the condescension of your elders (or any one else who has the nerve to all be spell out for you, "whatever is happening to you right now....I'm pointedly watching you, and it CAN'T be that bad, b/c you're a woman. SMILE! Smile for ME.")
     Reply
    maude_flanders was starred maude_flanders was unstarred
    Image of JanaNye JanaNye
    12/09/09

    @maude_flanders: I know. I would never tell someone to smile. So much of my day is spent masking my contempt.
     Reply
    JanaNye was starred JanaNye was unstarred
    Image of redqueenmeg redqueenmeg
    12/09/09

    In reply to Face/Off
    Sorta OT but Hillary looks so cute there! And I can say that because in one of my wedding photos I swear I am making the exact same face.
     Reply
    redqueenmeg was starred redqueenmeg was unstarred
    Image of psychokitty psychokitty
    12/09/09

    In reply to Face/Off
    Looking at the comments from yesterday, I have been thinking that there is a real discrepancy between how women are "supposed" to act, and how they have to act to succeed in a lot of careers. In our society I think stereotypically feminine traits like the appearance of happiness and the absence of aggressiveness might win you friends, but they definitely don't do you any good if you want to climb the corporate ladder. It's like women are expected to be two different things depending on the situation, and having a "feminine" personality is most definitely not always rewarded in our society.
     Reply
    Alys Brangwin has a huge talent promoted this comment Edited by psychokitty at 12/09/09 11:13 AM psychokitty was starred psychokitty was unstarred
    Image of Rare Affinity Rare Affinity
    12/09/09

    In reply to Face/Off
    If you want to see my angry face just come up to me, as a complete stranger and say:Cheer up. Why so sad?
    Usually I am just minding my own business at the time and am neither happy nor sad. It infuriates me that strangers think they have a right to demand that my facial features should be set in a certain way.
     Reply
    Edited by Rare Affinity at 12/09/09 10:56 AM Rare Affinity was starred Rare Affinity was unstarred
    Image of Ohthesarcasm Ohthesarcasm
    12/09/09

    @Rare Affinity: I completely agree! My roommate passed me on the street and asked me why I was so sad. I wasn't sad, I was thinking. And then I felt like I was obligated to look happy. Sucks.
     Reply
    maude_flanders promoted this comment Ohthesarcasm was starred Ohthesarcasm was unstarred
    Image of Lymed Lymed
    12/09/09

    @Rare Affinity: The only people I'm ok with telling me to smile are the vendors of Street Sense, D.C.'s street newspaper. I really don't know why. But it happens quite often and I do smile and feel better afterwards.
     Reply
    Lymed was starred Lymed was unstarred
    Image of bluetrain84 bluetrain84
    12/09/09

    @Rare Affinity: Uggh, this happens to me ALL THE TIME at the gym, of all places. Usually while I am lifting or sprinting or something that takes a lot of work, which is the exact opposite of when most people look happy. I am not a smiley doll!
     Reply
    bluetrain84 was starred bluetrain84 was unstarred
    Image of redqueenmeg redqueenmeg
    12/09/09

    @Rare Affinity: I get "cheer up" a lot because when I am not making ANY face I look really really sad. "Cheer up" makes me twitchy. Then I wonder how I come across in job interviews!
     Reply
    redqueenmeg was starred redqueenmeg was unstarred
    Image of madeofawesome madeofawesome
    12/09/09

    In reply to Face/Off
    Mom: Now, madeofawesome, why haven't you found yourself a nice fella?
    me: They just can't identify my FACE, Mom!
     Reply
    PaigeTurner promoted this comment madeofawesome was starred madeofawesome was unstarred
    Image of minnesotameltdown minnesotameltdown
    12/09/09

    In reply to Face/Off
    I'll help you identify an angry female face, motherf***ers!
     Reply
    minnesotameltdown was starred minnesotameltdown was unstarred
    Image of minnesotameltdown minnesotameltdown
    12/09/09

    @minnesotameltdown: I'm joking...JOKING. I'm certainly not angry at being reduced to a smiling beauty queen and/or a damsel in distress by people all over the world, the moment they see me. I'm not angry at all, about anything. That would just be unattractive.
     Reply
    alouette promoted this comment Edited by minnesotameltdown at 12/09/09 10:36 AM minnesotameltdown was starred minnesotameltdown was unstarred
    Image of alouette alouette
    12/09/09

    @minnesotameltdown: What's anger? I just SMILE when I'm upset!
     Reply
    alouette was starred alouette was unstarred
    Image of minnesotameltdown minnesotameltdown
    12/09/09

    @alouette: When I'm upset, I treat myself to a day at the spa:) I make sure to to get a bikini wax while I'm there, as a little treat for my husband!
     Reply
    Edited by minnesotameltdown at 12/09/09 10:57 AM minnesotameltdown was starred minnesotameltdown was unstarred
    Image of lermanzo lermanzo
    12/09/09

    @alouette: you may laugh... but i had a high school teacher who did just that. she would smile wider and wider and then her neck would tense and her veins would show... but she never stopped smiling. and she would be telling you the most withering comments ever.

    oh calculus class.
     Reply
    lermanzo was starred lermanzo was unstarred
    Image of alouette alouette
    12/09/09

    @lermanzo: Reaction formation!
     Reply
    alouette was starred alouette was unstarred
    Image of lermanzo lermanzo
    12/09/09

    @alouette: it was like "where's your homework? :-) oh? you didn't do it :-D"

    creeeeeepy
     Reply
    lermanzo was starred lermanzo was unstarred
    Image of femdriver femdriver
    11/10/09

    In reply to Do Young Men Need A New Kind Of Masculinity?
    It seems as although there is a new generation of forward thinking men, they are still bogged down by pressure to conform to their 'traditional masculine' roles. Most of my best friends are guys, and a great number of them also identify (based on definition) as a feminist, but agree to the negative connotation surrounding this word.
    The pressure for young men to conform to masculine ideals and perpetuate patriarchy is astounding, and I'm so glad that it is finally being realized. The box of masculinity is so much more strict than that of femininity its frightening- women can go outside of gender roles while it is much more difficult for men. (I would also like to add that I do not agree with the ideas of femininity and masculinity, as gender is just a social construct- I'm referring to colloquial ideas pertaining to each gender, not how life should be.) #masculinity
     Reply
    SarahMC approved this comment femdriver was starred femdriver was unstarred
    Image of Richard Lawson Richard Lawson
    11/10/09

    In reply to Do Young Men Need A New Kind Of Masculinity?
    How do gay dudes like myself fit into all of this?

    Honest question. #masculinity
     Reply
    Richard Lawson was starred Richard Lawson was unstarred
    Image of wrapped in plastic wrapped in plastic
    11/10/09

    In reply to Do Young Men Need A New Kind Of Masculinity?
    I think the idea of a "positive masculine identity" could just mean a gender identity where men don't feel like they are pretending not to be men. Like a "positive feminine identity" could mean one where women can be strong and independent without being afraid to seem female sometimes. #masculinity
     Reply
    SarahMC promoted this comment wrapped in plastic was starred wrapped in plastic was unstarred
    Image of SarahMC SarahMC
    11/10/09

    @wrapped in plastic: What does "seem female" mean, though? #masculinity
     Reply
    SarahMC was starred SarahMC was unstarred
    Image of the_poptart the_poptart
    11/10/09

    In reply to Do Young Men Need A New Kind Of Masculinity?
    My brother was walking behind his girlfriend in a restaurant, on their way to their table I guess, and suddenly became cognizant that every single man she passed by looked her up and down.

    The next time he went out with her, he noticed it again.

    Then he went out with my mom. And then with me. And he noticed it happening everywhere.

    It completely grossed him out. It had never occurred to him, I guess. Even though we all shrugged it off.

    Besides the fact that he now insists on walking us to the bathrooms in crowded restaurants, I think it's little things like this that really point out that men probably don't even think about these things. And how scary that really is. #masculinity
     Reply
    boxspelunker promoted this comment the_poptart was starred the_poptart was unstarred
    Image of KurticusMaximus KurticusMaximus
    11/10/09

    In reply to Do Young Men Need A New Kind Of Masculinity?
    The problem is that all these "ideals of manhood" attempts are based on the theory that there exists an ideal of manhood, and that men who don't match that ideal are less manly.

    They also almost always get bogged down in the belief that the ideal of manhood peaked around 1955. Read through GQ (or Esquire, for that matter), or even blogs like 1001 Rules For My Unborn Son and The Art Of Manliness, and you'll quickly catch the pattern.

    They can make as many nods towards modernity and equality as they want, but if your ideal man is still centered on a strong-but-silent heterosexual provider who "controls" his emotions, you're going to run into problems eventually.

    And even if you do come up with a totally modern definition, what's the point? Why does there need to exist a single concept of what manhood is? Role models shouldn't be showing people how to act like the epitome of their specific gender/race/whatever; role models should be showing how to be a good person.

    After all, what's the difference between Steven Colbert and Amy Poehler as role models? Both display the same values--intelligence, confidence, humor, respect for others, open-mindedness, and so on. Audiences will naturally identify with role models similar to themselves, so men will tend to look to Colbert and women to Poehler, but they're seeing the same things--not how to be a good man or a good woman, but a good person.

    So yeah, we do need more male role models who don't have a toxic view of women, but not because we need a new standard of masculinity. #masculinity
     Reply
    boxspelunker promoted this comment KurticusMaximus was starred KurticusMaximus was unstarred
    Image of SarahMC SarahMC
    11/10/09

    @KurticusMaximus: This is exactly, exactly how I feel. You put it so well. #masculinity
     Reply
    SarahMC was starred SarahMC was unstarred
    Image of Sophie needs to study...damn Sophie needs to study...damn
    11/10/09

    In reply to Do Young Men Need A New Kind Of Masculinity?
    +My father and brothers have joined me in Take Back the Night Marches.
    +They like their women strong and opinionated.
    +They like to cook and clean.

    And they are often mysognistic. And sexist. And defintely products of the Patriarchy. They reap the rewards of being men and, from what I can tell, have no plans to relinquish their privilege.

    Just because your dad, brother, or male partner is "cool" doesn't mean he's a feminist. It means he's not a dick. There's a huuuge difference. My dad, brothers, and boyfriend are not dicks. They're very lovely, actually. But they're definitely NOT feminists or redefining masculinity in any way. Feminists have raised the bar on what it means to be a Strong Woman. We would do well to raise the bar on what it means to be a Good Man. Being nice and cool and sweet ain't good enough. #masculinity
     Reply
    Sophie needs to study...damn was starred Sophie needs to study...damn was unstarred
    Image of Titania Titania
    11/10/09

    In reply to Do Young Men Need A New Kind Of Masculinity?
    I think we should sponsor a weekend-long retreat for all of these men and all the awesome Jezebel dads out there, mine included. He's never seemed to have a problem being a motorcycle-riding, martial-arts-practicing attorney who loves playing with babies and dancing around the kitchen with his wife. If I've learned anything from him, it's to look for a guy who isn't afraid to embrace all sides of himself, whether he thinks they're masculine or not--because masculine and feminine can still add up to one hell of a man. #masculinity
     Reply
    cirocco promoted this comment Titania was starred Titania was unstarred
    Image of RoseRedDecalcomania RoseRedDecalcomania
    11/10/09

    In reply to Do Young Men Need A New Kind Of Masculinity?
    "rather, they can simply teach that how men understand their gender is up to them, and that they shouldn't feel the need to fit themselves into any particular mold. This might be difficult — young people, despite their protestations of rebellion, kind of like molds — but it would move us one step closer to a world in which gender was an opportunity for self-expression, not a cage of expectations. The lack of a new paradigm for masculinity may look like emptiness, but it's also freedom."

    YES. the problem isn't masculinity needing to be redefined. masculinity is always defined as being in opposition to femininity, regardless of how you construct it. the problem is the gender binary, and the opressive constrictions it places around the individual's ability to self-define.

    having the paradigm fall away altogether would actually be a good thing; deterritorialization, anyone? could the lack of a cohesive narrative of masculinity signal a line of flight? for all you philosophy/theory nerds out there the fall of the gender binary might create a Body Without Organs. sexuality could actually become a project, then. (Deleuze+Guattari, you guys.)
     Reply
    boxspelunker promoted this comment RoseRedDecalcomania was starred RoseRedDecalcomania was unstarred
    Image of ketamineKitty ketamineKitty
    11/10/09

    In reply to Do Young Men Need A New Kind Of Masculinity?
    In all honesty, a lot of the younger generations of men these days really don't seem to identify with the Tucker Max's of the world. The guys my age, raised largely by single divorcee mothers and "I Am Woman, Hear Me Roar" era feminists, have had female authority figures around their entire lives, have grown up in an era where they were taught that girls could be anything boys could be, and on the whole have diverse groups of friends and tend to respect women without giving it much thought. I think when we refer to The Patriarchy, we're generally referring to an older, and hopefully slowly dying out, paradigm. #masculinity
     Reply
    bluebears promoted this comment ketamineKitty was starred ketamineKitty was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    11/10/09

    @ketamineKitty: right? just like all those old dying out paradigms that gang raped that girl in California. #masculinity
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of PilgrimSoul PilgrimSoul
    11/10/09

    @bluebears: Also like Tucker Max is eighty right? #masculinity
     Reply
    PilgrimSoul was starred PilgrimSoul was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    11/10/09

    @PilgrimSoul: ssshhhh! He has Benjamin Buttons disease. #masculinity
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of ketamineKitty ketamineKitty
    11/10/09

    @bluebears: Well, I said slowly. I just think we view things at the extremes on this site way too often. I'm obviously not saying rape doesn't still happen, but the overall attitude is NOT what it used to be. I think younger guys deserve a little credit, and I think we need to give ourselves a little credit now and then for making progress.

    And I think Benjamin Button disease might actually explain Tucker Max... as he is a giant baby, after all....
     Reply
    bluebears promoted this comment Edited by ketamineKitty at 11/10/09 3:50 PM ketamineKitty was starred ketamineKitty was unstarred
    Image of SarahMC SarahMC
    11/10/09

    @ketamineKitty: I wish. Misogyny is growing, not shrinking, in popularity, IMO. #masculinity
     Reply
    SarahMC was starred SarahMC was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    11/10/09

    @ketamineKitty: I'm not trying to single you out when I say this, but often times on this site commenters will say the same thing basically, don't be so extreme, things are slowly getting better, be patient. I think this is the wrong attitude for ANY oppressed group to take. We should be vigilant and proactive. Woman (and other oppressed groups) do not and never have gained any ground through the largesse of the privileged, they fought for it. So just because we all might know nice guys, doesn't mean that there isn't a larger problem in our society and that it needs to be addressed. #masculinity
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
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