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The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
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Remedios Varo can't see no huevos.
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
Once upon a time, it was a custom to not use the left hand to touch food or other shared objects because that hand was used for unsanitary activities, such as wiping oneself after using the latrine.
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Scout
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
.....I personally think that visitors should not be allowed in hospitals - hospitals need to invest in web cams which could be transmitted to monitors in an entirely separate building

period
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BettyCrockerPunkRocker
01/13/09

@Scout: I get where you are coming from, with the threat of infection being so great, but I don't think you can completely discount the theraputic effect that visits from loved ones can provide the patient. Think of gravely ill patients and how stressful it would be to be restricted from human contact, aside from needles, vital sign checks and other procedural contact.
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Scout
01/13/09

@BettyCrockerPunkRocker: and sponge baths from nurses! don't forget those :)

The gravely ill, perhaps a separate building as well

basically restructuring everything which isn't going to happen any time soon
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Lilah
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
There's a book I highly recommend that has a good section on childbed fever. And it has a killer subtitle.

"The Demon Under the Microscope: From Battlefield Hospitals to Nazi Labs, One Doctor's Heroic Search for the World's First Miracle Drug"
[www.amazon.com]

It was all pretty heart-wrenching. One anecdote was about a young doctor who had a series of women die from childbed fever. He shaved all the hair off his body and burned all his clothes, and waited six month before attending another birth... and that woman died too.

The man who first made the connection that the doctors themselves were spreading the disease was an obstetrician, and he said that he was haunted by the idea that he was an unwitting murderer to many of his patients. He died in a mental asylum.

The Victorian era was grim, dudes.
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dianersb was bit by a zombie
01/13/09

@Lilah: Must wait till after the semester to buy more books...must.wait....must...
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WaltzingMatilda
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
Um, as part of my work I know of several incredibly rare, terrifying diseases that coincide with childbirth. Also fun - hearing about lady-part cancer during pregnancy and it being hard to diagnose. So yeah, VERY a-scared of the baby birthing.
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misspie
01/13/09

@WaltzingMatilda(theOriginal): i am a total nerd when it comes to diseases and love the rare, terrifying ones.

i am also 9 weeks away from my due date.

i might just go with ignorance is bliss at this point unless prior knowledge could help me avoid one of these ailments?
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WaltzingMatilda
01/14/09

@misspie: nothing preventative that I can tell. Which makes it all the more terrifying!

But yay for 9 weeks! :)
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Yaffle
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
I have actually asked boyfriends/one night stands to wash their hands before sex. Which seems perfectly sensible to me (especially in light of the above - although of course giving birth = obviously very different) but has got me some weird reactions and is a little awkward in the heat of the moment. If we're somewhere not near a bathroom I have to try to switch off the part of my brain that is wondering where his fingers have been.

Am I alone on this one? I can't say I've ever seen this in a Miss Manners column...
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WaltzingMatilda
01/13/09

@Yaffle: You are not. I... well, after a super-early 2000s HPV scare freaked out. Now, we both wash our hands before sexual contact. At least when the situation allows.
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lola82
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
In a large hospital, only 30% of docs wash their hands between patients.

Found this out from Senior Counsel for very large, hospital chain. GROSS.
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emilyanne
01/13/09

@lola82: ooh that's grim. My only experience of a US hopital was the maternity wing of St Vincents in Manhattan, and I have to say there was a great deal of hand washing going on and my husband was repeatedly reminded to wash his. But I suspect they have stronger rules in maternity wings.
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applejuice
01/14/09

@emilyanne: It's not just US hospitals. This has been found uniformly in hospitals around the world. Sooooo many studies have been done.

Sorry to harp on about it. I have some doctors in my family too, but I still find this disgraceful.
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emilyanne
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
Ok so here's a thing - 70 per cent of the spread of MRSA in UK hospitals is caused not by dirty hospital or bad doctors or nurses but by those visiting the patients.

Think about it when you enter a hospital, perhaps you enter the hospital shop and buy grapes or a magazine for your ill relative, do you then wash your hands before visiting the patient?

Most people don't, nor do they wash their hands having come in from outside, travelling on the tube etc and then visiting the patient...

The moral is wash your hands before visiting your sick relative, you'll be lowering their chances of catching MRSA significantly.

This message has been bought to you on behalf of my mother, an infection control doctor. Thank you.
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Lymed
01/13/09

@emilyanne: It would make sense to me for hospitals to install sinks next to information desks and nurse stations where visitors would check in. Whenever a visitor asks for a patient, the staff can ask the visitor to wash his or her hands for the safety of the patients.
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emilyanne
01/13/09

@Lymed: oh now that is a brilliant idea.
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NoInheritance
01/13/09

@emilyanne: There are hand sanitizing stations every five feet in the hospital my Nana is currently in, and you better believe I use those things. She's frail enough, she doesn't need my cooties!
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Lymed
01/13/09

@NoInheritance: Is it a sink or just hand sanitizers? Because studies have shown that the hand sanitizers aren't as effective as they say. They don't do anything against the common cold or the flu.
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Scout
01/13/09

@Lymed: hand sanitizers only add to the problem with creating more antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria

so, I think the sinks at all admittance sites is the best idea, by far

MRSA is seriously scary shit - and my damn (but lovely) husband comes home with all sorts of frightening studies for me to read - that is what I get being married to a scientists whose primary course of study was pathology
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applejuice
01/14/09

@emilyanne: Yeah but studies have shown (as recent as THIS YEAR) that 70% (or more) of doctors STILL DO NOT WASH THEIR HANDS BETWEEN PATIENTS.

It's all well and good to blame the visitors etc, and don't get me wrong, I know they bring a lot into the hospitals and definitely need to be more diligent in washing their hands, but the doctors are spreading stuff between all the patients and they are the ones who should know better. It's part of their job to be hygenic and they are getting a big FAIL on that.
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Scout
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
R.I.P. Semmelweis

[en.wikipedia.org]
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annewithaneee
01/13/09

@Scout: Thanks Scout. I was too lazy to look him up for myself, but I was intrigued by your mention of Dr. Semmelweis in your earlier post. What a sad story!
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Scout
01/13/09

@annewithaneee is colder than a...: quite tragic. I feel it my duty to spread the word about him considering I was ignorant to his contributions and suffering for most of my life. :)
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mslewis
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
I never eat food stuff brought in to work because I KNOW several of the women do not wash their hands after using the toilet!! I figure if they don't wash their hands in public when people can see them then they almost certainly don't wash at home after using the toilet. They all think I'm some kind of snob but I just refuse to eat anything they cook. It's no wonder they are always complaining that their kids always have colds!!! Well, the little shits are always infected because you don't wash your hands!!!

Another thing . . . I seem to remember reading a history book that said Orthodox Jews in the middle ages were hated because they TOOK BATHS and people thought there was something wrong with them because nobody took baths back then because everybody knew you got pneumonia when you got wet.
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Gretchen is a new kitten mom!
01/13/09

@mslewis: I don't eat anything my co-workers bring in and this can be wicked awkward as we have monthly carry-in potluck lunches. This is partly due to the fact I know several of my colleagues are filthy. One, if she needs to work late, complains about how much dog shit she'll find on her kitchen floor when she gets home and always follows that with something like "Not that the little bastards don't shit everywhere all the time anyway". It is also because I don't eat pork or shellfish for religious reasons and was once told a dish was beef when asked... when it wasn't. This dude 'fessed up when he heard I had to leave the classroom and puke an hour later.
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Lymed
01/13/09

@Gretchen: Somebody needs to tell that dude it's only funny on Seinfeld, not in real life.
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Gretchen is a new kitten mom!
01/13/09

@Lymed: Word. When they know this is for religious reasons I find it particularly obnoxious.
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Laulau
01/13/09

@Gretchen: Or frankly, just for ethical reasons. (A) Because this is my (atheist) belief about what morality requires, and I take my moral character seriously, and (B) as I assume happened to you, my digestive system is just no longer equipped to digest meat at this point.
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MissAmy
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
I will add this to my litany of counter arguments for when I hear my hippy friends bemoan the evils of "Western medicine." Thank you. I need new material constantly.
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formergr
01/13/09

@MissAmy: Interestingly, rates of "childbed fever" deaths were very low until the transition occurred of childbirth being something handled by a female friend, relative, or midwife to being handled by a (male) doctor in hospitals. Reason being that midwife only saw one woman at a time each in a different house, so even if she didn't wash her hands between there was less likelihood of the germs being transferred to their patients' vadges.

The doctors on the other hand, literally went from bed to bed to bed all next to each other in a maternity ward and stuck his hand up the women's vadges in assembly line fashion with no handwashing and no time in between. So gross!
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applejuice
01/13/09

@formergr: Doctors still don't wash their hands between patients 3 out of every 4 times! Maybe not after they've had their hands up their vaginas, (but I wouldn't freakin' be surprised).

See my comment above.@applejuice:
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formergr
01/13/09

@applejuice: Well hopefully they are wearing gloves! I know my gyn does, is that pretty much universal these days?
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applejuice
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
I'm 30 and when I was born my mom's OBGYN was on vacation. Some a-hole was standing in for him who wouldn't come out of the breakroom when the nurse kept telling him my mom was about to deliver. He finally ran through at the last minute without washing his hands or anything.

My mom came down with blood poisoning (also known as sepsis or septacemia) and almost died. She was really sick for a long time.

I bet it is still happening too. With her the Dr and Hospital denied all responsibility. I'm sure that is still happening. How do you prove this? Also, cleanliness in hospitals is getting worse all the time.
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emilyanne
01/13/09

@applejuice: agreed but as noted above visitors also have to take responsibility when in hospitals. My mother's entire life consists of telling people to take their shoes of if they're going to sit on hospital beds and wash their hands and generally follow basic hygene rules which they apparently feel they are mysteriously immune to while visiting a hospital. Which is not to say doctors and nurses are 100 per cent saints but just that people also have to take some responsibility, I've got angry with people not washing their hands in hospital toilets before.
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applejuice
01/13/09

@emilyanne: Yes, visitors do need to wash their hands and use the alcohol rub that is provided for them.

BUT - study after study has shown that doctors are very very consistant in failing to wash their hands (as in like 3 out of 4 times) between patients. Sorry, but that is pure negligence in my mind. They are aware of the implications and it is their JOB to be hygenic.

I agree that visitors and patients need to be aware and careful to wash, but I'm much harsher on the freakin' healthcare workers.

(Nurses are better but still only 40% to 50% of them have been found to be good about this.)

There are literally hundreds of studies all around the world that all find the same thing, here are just a couple I googled quickly:

[www.montrealgazette.com]

[women.webmd.com]
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Eeva
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
And plenty of doctors and health professionals still haven't discovered this whole hand-washing thing. ACK.

Her life was far more fascinating than her death, though. She was ahead of her time.
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JinxyMcDeath
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
How about when your co-workers fail to wash their hands...and you see it. Do you say something?

Seriously, I have struggled with whether to tell some fellow attorneys that their secretaries don't wash their hands in the bathroom...and I'm shocked that they aren't disgusted with themselves after using a public restroom (with other people who DO NOT wash their hands) and walking out without doing anything.

What. Is. The. Rush?
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Penny
01/13/09

@JinxyMcDeath: My boss tells me which men don't wash their hands and I avoid them at all costs.

Some guy hit on me at the post office earlier today and he offered me his hand to shake. And I took it. Now I am remembering that I didn't wash my hands afterward and I feel like I am going to hurl.
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Penny_Esq
01/13/09

@JinxyMcDeath: This totally shocks me too! Even if it doesn't bother you, personally, to have nasty bathroom hands, wouldn't the mere presence of other people washing THEIR hands shame you into doing likewise? I will confess, however, to refraining from saying anything. The most I will do is glare at them whilst making a point to lather up my soap.
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happysquid
01/13/09

@Penny Plastic (Archetype): YES men are FILTHY and will do almost anything to avoid washing their hands. I have trained (not sure if that is the right word, sounds Pavlovian but still) BoyfriendSquid to wash his hands religiously...
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happysquid
01/13/09

@happysquid: also, I have heard that men's bathrooms are beyond filthy, with unmentionable smears and just generally gross.
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JinxyMcDeath
01/13/09

@Penny Plastic (Archetype): I met with a new psychiatrist today and he refused to shake my hand. Says he "doesn't do it"...I was like "whatever" but it was soooo awkward. Now, I'm glad :)

@Penny_Esq: Exactly! Sometimes I will rush out of the stall, wash my hands quickly, and run out of the bathroom to see who just left without washing. I need to know so I can avoid them at all costs...also, I'm freaked out that they aren't ashamed.
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Lymed
01/13/09

@JinxyMcDeath: I remember hating washing my hands as a kid and trying to get away without it, but as an adult? I say put up some signs to at least make them feel guilty. And if you see somebody read the sign and not wash, then give them a gift of Purell.
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musicpup
01/13/09

@JinxyMcDeath: I think you should probably tell them because you can spread norovirus that way. Which leads to 24-48 of projectile vomiting and diarrhea and it hurts and it's terrible.

Some idiot in my dorm didn't wash his hands last year. And so everyone got sick.
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Tart of Darkness
01/13/09

@JinxyMcDeath: I'm still confused about your new psych who doesn't shake hands I have to admit. I mean, did he offer a different greeting behavior or what?

So he comes out of his office and says "Hello, I'm Dr. Socially Awkward and I know you are going to want to shake my hand so I have to tell you that I don't 'do that' so I'm going to connect with you as a human being" how?
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musicpup
01/13/09

@musicpup: I meant 24-48 hours. Durrr. Still, it was NOT fun, especially since I ended up getting it multiple times.
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PrettyPrettyPrincess
01/13/09

@Penny Plastic (Archetype): My new neighbor (two hours ago) shook my hand and then during the subsequent get-to-know-you chat he stepped aside, coughed and said I just can't get over this awful cold! Ah, thanks for giving the gift of germs, neighbor dude, I bet you haven't washed your hands all day!! I washed twice after he meandered off.

@happysquid: yay for training! my BF washes his hands as much as I do, and I LOVE it. He totally loves the girlie hand soap smell too.
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PrettyPrettyPrincess
01/13/09

@JinxyMcDeath: We were interviewing candidates and one of them didn't shake my hand for religious reasons and he felt so awkward, I promptly reassured him that I am MORE than happy to not shake hands. He was so sweet about it (in addition to being very qualified) that I had to hire him. I am all about good reasons not to touch strangers.
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happysquid
01/13/09

@PrettyPrettyPrincess: Hooray! Yes i can't agree enough. I'll be all like "Did you wash your hands after taking the subway?" ...

as far as your new neighbor coughing and shaking...take some Oscillococcinum if you start feeling crappy! works every time to stop a cold in its tracks.
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PrettyPrettyPrincess
01/13/09

@Lymed: My nieces and nephews are ALWAYS trying to get away with not washing. Running the water for half a second is NOT washing! I've seen where those hands have been and they need frequent dousings with anti-bacterial soap. I remind myself I must have been just as gross when I was young but honestly, EWWW!!
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Lymed
01/13/09

@Tart of Darkness: Perhaps some of his patients tell him where they put their hands and he'd rather not touch them.
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Gretchen is a new kitten mom!
01/13/09

@happysquid: Congrats. You've achieved Level 3. Level 1 is training them to pee in the toilet and not in random corners of rooms. Level 2 pressing that little 'flush' handle. Level 4 is putting the seat down, while Level 5 is actually closing the lid.

I've been at this for 20 years. Mr. G is at Level 1.5.
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Gretchen is a new kitten mom!
01/13/09

@JinxyMcDeath: You won't see me washing my hands in a bathroom anywhere other than my home unless they're DIRELY dirty. The reason for this is I have wicked topical reactions to almost every single type of soap I've ever encountered other than a very, very small selection of brands.

I used to carry my own little bottle of hand soap with me. Now I carry Purell. I just try not to touch anything, including my face or doorknobs, until I get back to my desk and can sanitize. Sometimes I do catch people staring at me strangely and I want to say "You really don't want to see the hives, rash and peeling patches of skin. You. Really. Don't".
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JinxyMcDeath
01/13/09

@Tart of Darkness: Well, it wasn't as awkward in the beginning because he kind of ushered me in...but it happened at the end when I got up to leave. I stood, took a few steps over with my hand outstretched and he goes "Hand shaking is for your profession, but it's not done here." I'm an attorney. I was like "W.T.F" Quite frankly, he's not going to be doing anything but refilling my prescription, so I'm going to just forget about it.
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happysquid
01/13/09

@Gretchen: I try to tell BoyFriendSquid lurid tales of how many nasty germs live on door handles and things. Lurid cautionary tales = great tool.
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BlondeGrlz
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
Oh my God. At my birthing class last night, the instructor talked about how the 3rd stage of labor is delivering the placenta and Mr. BGZ was like "What if stuff gets stuck up there?" Now I'm hyperventilating.

Do you think my doctor would be insulted if I insisted everyone who touches me borrows my bottle of Purell first?
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DangerMouse
01/13/09

@BlondeGrlz is due April 1st: I'm pretty sure they'd wear gloves for that, but most hospitals have hand sanitizer dispensers on walls all over the place these days, so you can always have Mr. BGZ try to keep tabs on who's washed up.
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Treeless
01/13/09

@BlondeGrlz is due April 1st: Before anyone touches you, you have the right to ask "have you washed your hands?"

There is a growing push to promote patients asking this, as well as hospital literature that reminds docs not to flip attitude and to be at 100% compliance. 'Cause no, they're not 100% perfect. Just a lot better than they used to be.

White coats (if not laundered fairly constantly) and doc's ties can also harbor germs, because they are not laundered as much as scrubs are. A doctor without a tie is a better doctor.
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CommiHomoLovinSonofaGun
01/13/09

Don't worry. The placenta will come right out and you will finally, finally feel a little bit more like your old self again. @BlondeGrlz is due April 1st:
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Tart of Darkness
01/13/09

@Treeless: My doctor doesn't wear a tie and I agree she is a better doctor than the one I had before. :)
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Tart of Darkness
01/13/09

@IAteTheCake: That's the only part of my daughter's birth that I actually saw was the placenta part. And the doctor showed us the placenta in the tray, too. I saw it before I saw my daughter.
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LadySoprano is a Fat-Fighting Superwoman
01/13/09

@BlondeGrlz is due April 1st: Oh, ew!

I teach at an elementary school, so my colleagues are all big on washing constantly. Purell is our best friend. I have a big can of Oust in my room, and I'm NOT afraid to stop in the middle of a kindergarten music lesson and remind a kid that nose-picking is just gross, the Kleenex box is over there, and to please wash after putting that Kleenex in the garbage can!

Also, a few years ago my brother and his wife came for Christmas with three foster children they were caring for (siblings, all under age 4). We'd hugged and patted heads and everything else when my SIL chirps, "Oh, Maria's got pinkeye!"

Mom and I were horrified, and I was diving for the Purell.
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LadySoprano is a Fat-Fighting Superwoman
01/13/09

@LadySoprano: Urgh! I replied to the wrong thread. Sorry!
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DanA MacDonald
01/13/09

In reply to The Silent And Painful Killer: "Childbed Fever"
What, no mention of Ignaz Semmelweis?
A travesty!
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Scout
01/13/09

@DanA MacDonald: ALWAYS! I had a t-shirt made of Semmelweis, an homage, because he suffered fools for everyone's ignorance....

God Damn It!!!!

at least people know the name of Tesla
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Scout
01/13/09

@Scout: correction: my lovely husband had a t-shirt made for me, as a gift because he saw how outraged (and mad at myself too for not always knowing about Semmelweis) I was and figured the shirt could prove to be a conversation starter, thus spreading the word about Ignaz
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lilredpanda
01/13/09

@Scout: I am so jealous! I want a Semmelweis t-shirt!!

@DanA MacDonald: Wasn't he stabbed with a dirty knife or something?
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Scout
01/13/09

@lilredpanda: hubbie just grabbed the very same photo from the inter-web and sent to B-Bam! (here in Seattle) and voila - I got me a nice girlie sized t-shirt....you can too - we can start a Semmelweis Grassroots Recognition Movement

[www.b-bam.com]
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CherriSpryte
01/14/09

@lilredpanda: From what I remember in a book by Kurt Vonnegut, Semmelweis stabbed himself with a dirty knife to prove his theory. Vonnegut cites him as one of his heroes.

And as i cite Vonnegut as one of mine, I feel obligated to co-opt his heroes for myself!

Also, can I say, I absolutely LOVE the historical pieces that the site's been doing recently. I am a huge nerd, I know, but they've all been incredibly fascinating.
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