Why are we idolizing Marilyn Monroe anyway? Everyone who is anyone knows that the next trend in celebrity size-obsessions is going to be Jessica Rabbit. It's much more fun to talk about her sizes because you can make up even more numbers because she was animated. Now, I understand that animation adds at least twenty ounces, but I'm pretty sure my boobs are smaller than hers. So, you know. That means I'm hot shit.
So get with the program, people. Marilyn Monroe's size is so last month.
It is definitely true that the pressure for Hollywood starlets to be thin is nothing new. I was watching this little promotional, "on the set" footage for (I think) Rebel Without a Cause, and when they got to a shot of Natalie Wood, the narrator describes her as "having a figure that macaroni and cheese just can't stick to!" And that odd comment has always stuck with me.
Those are impressive measurements. I think she would still be considered impressively beautiful, because to have a waist that small with those kinds of curves...that's really rare. I am 31, 23, 35. I am often told I'm an "old fashioned beauty." It can either be a genuine compliment or a veiled insult...right? Depends on the context or the tone. How I wish I had the bust measurements she had!
But anyway, who really cares.
In reality I think peoples' bodies have changed, and most people have longer legs and less curves. I'm not one of them. :(
It always seems that they us Ms. Monroe to demonstrate that women were not so thin in the 50's and 60's in films. But then how do people explain Audrey Hepburn or Grace Kelly. They both seemed pretty thin to me. I mean, they probably didn't go as thin as they were now - but women in serious parts still seemed on the thin side and women in highly sexualized parts - now those were the women who got to be "voluptuous".
Heck maybe the issue is more that women actually had good parts to choose from period.
I can see how this discussion could get a little cruel, and I wanted to share my observations. Note that I don't think the editors or commenters are actually DOING this, but I wanted to stress sensitivity.
I honestly think a lot of people don't know that sizes have changed significantly. They probably just remember some of the more iconic photos of Monroe when she had a little more curve to her, and they think, "Wait, didn't she wear a size 16? Hey, wearing a size 16 can be really sexy! This is one tidbit of comfort that makes me feel better about having a higher number on the tag of my jeans."
This weird nitpicky nanometer-by-nanometer post about her EXACT! FUCKING! MEASUREMENTS is sort of...counterproductive, though, in two ways:
1. You guys were wrong, you wrongy wrongersons! You don't know ANYTHING about sizes, ha ha!
2. If you wear a larger size, you shouldn't get to compare yourself to someone who was considered beautiful, because THEY WERE NOTHING LIKE YOU! See? SEE? Chapter and verse! Here are the numbers, down to the nanometer!
Honestly, I find the weird fetishization of her exact measurements to be a little icky, because sheez, the poor lady didn't have a happy life and she had a tragic death. I think her memory deserves more respect than to reduce her to a collection of inches and inseams.
AGAIN, I am not saying that the editors or commenters are actually DOING this, but I could see where the discussion could get meaner, and I hope it doesn't.
@tscheese: I agree. I think the focus on uncovering her 'real' measurements, while well-intentioned, risks, as you say, re-fetishizing her body. It's a battle nobody can win.
@chritter is a nocturnal feminist mancatfish: And you need to - um - check your - um - ridiculous user name privilege! I would bet that Marilyn Monroe could fit into your name with room to spare for weak sauce in which to saute your mancatfish!
I'm trying... the Noodle knows, I'm trying... it's just... so hard. So very, very hard. My invisible faux-privilege-accusation-hurling... knapsack is as deep and wide as the sea.
Also in my comparison game (in my head) I like to go with the plump, pear shaped women of art like venus and the other naked ladies. I can't think of the names of artists right now though. Dangit.
@debo matar la zombi goldberry83: Yes!! Those are the ladies. Thank you. They are so wickedly plump and the proportions are not quite balanced and yet look so lush. Love it.
People hear that MM wore a "size 16", and without knowing that sizing was different then, they think "Hey, here's this iconic beauty who had a very unique look; she was curvy and not razor-thin. I can wear a size X and be curvy and beautiful too! My look matches something really iconic! I can feel good about it!"
I'm all for combating misinformation, but if it makes people feel good to say "Hey, I wear size X and I'm similar to XYZ beautiful person, I feel better about myself," I don't think we should necessarily...chastise them for that. I have a very, very difficult relationship with my own body, and today's beauty standards are just so narrowly-defined and difficult to attain.
People probably find MM's appearance to be refreshing, and whether they know anything about vintage sizes or not, feel like they can use her "size" as a rallying cry for plus sized beauty. Even if MM didn't wear a size that would be considered "plus" today.
I think a better tactic would be to encourage people not to turn threads into size-weight-BMI comparisons, rather than saying, "Hey, you guys had her size all wrong all this time, you wrongy wrongers! Ha ha!" Because the former is useful and the latter is a little hurtful.
@tscheese: I agree, though I don't think this post chastises people who get comfort from believing her size was similar to theirs so much as people who continually use "her size" as an actual argument.
Let's combat false information and weak arguments and tired internet arguments and encourage the acceptance of our own bodies, Marilyn-esque or no.
Of all days to be late to the party! Bless your hearts for doing this, bless each and every Jezebel heart, and most particularly, Sadie's.
I fear that Ellaesther's Law, freshly minted last week, may well still stand elsewhere in the world ("Ellaesther's Law: Any internet discussion of women's bodies will eventually lean on, and then devolve into furious argument over, Marilyn Monroe's body/dress size."), but perhaps we, here, will be able to get beyond it. Please God!
And not for nothing, but to echo hortense: The far more salient fact to remember from Marilyn Monroe's life is that it ended in tragedy. Poor woman -- we should let her rest in peace.
@ellaesther: Ellaesther, I think your law is funny, but I still think... eh, this strikes me as blaming one side. I've tried to get at this in other comments, but, I assume you know why people talk about Marilyn Monroe in these contexts. They talk about her because she makes them feel somewhat human. And your rejection of it seems too glib for the subject matter.
I guess I just feel like "getting beyond it" means ignoring the problem of fat-hatred.
Do you see what I am trying to say? Blood caffeine is clearly low.
As to the smackdown in the comments, I just don't understand what's wrong with stating that sizes have changed. I am not judging anyone for their size. I am not saying that larger women than Marilyn Monroe should not compare themselves to her. I am not saying that everyone should sit down with a calculator and figure out exactly how inadequate they are. What am I missing here?
@debo matar la zombi goldberry83: Does everyone know that? I mean, I don't want to see it posted 5,000 times a thread, but are we really going to assume EVERYONE knows that sizes changed? Because I certainly know people who didn't know that.
@greengrey (raidersofthelostSTAR): I think that pretty much everybody who wants to know, knows, at least on this site. I've never seen a response that was a (non-sarcastic) "OMG, really? I had no idea!" And my larger point is to do with its complete irrelevance.
All this 'Marilyn was a size 16' nonsense ignores the fact that American clothing sizes have been inflated since the fifties. What is now a 16 would have been something like a 20 or a 22 in the late 50s; what was then a 16 would now be a ten, maybe. (I know this because I sew, and sewing patterns actually HAVEN'T inflated their sizes much since the '50s. Hellooo, size 18.)
@Samanthrax is Sarcastic: I'm not sure what I did wrong here. I scanned the comments and didn't see anything to this effect; the article itself mentions that the UK and the US have different sizing, not that both countries' sizing has changed from what it was in the '50s. If you already posted something to this effect, I'm very sorry that I missed it?
@BellaTricks: this is actually pretty in line with how i gain and lose; my waist measurements have stayed more or less the same (one and a half inch bigger when i was markedly heavier) for the last nine years, during which i've been both fifteen pounds heavier and five pounds lighter than i am now.
@BellaTricks: Yeah, I buy it. My weight's fluctuated by 20 lbs in the last few years, but the waist on my jeans still fits -- it's my butt and thighs that I have to squeeze in!
06/22/09
So get with the program, people. Marilyn Monroe's size is so last month.
06/22/09
I've got nothing.
06/22/09
06/22/09
But anyway, who really cares.
In reality I think peoples' bodies have changed, and most people have longer legs and less curves. I'm not one of them. :(
06/22/09
06/22/09
Heck maybe the issue is more that women actually had good parts to choose from period.
06/22/09
06/22/09
I honestly think a lot of people don't know that sizes have changed significantly. They probably just remember some of the more iconic photos of Monroe when she had a little more curve to her, and they think, "Wait, didn't she wear a size 16? Hey, wearing a size 16 can be really sexy! This is one tidbit of comfort that makes me feel better about having a higher number on the tag of my jeans."
This weird nitpicky nanometer-by-nanometer post about her EXACT! FUCKING! MEASUREMENTS is sort of...counterproductive, though, in two ways:
1. You guys were wrong, you wrongy wrongersons! You don't know ANYTHING about sizes, ha ha!
2. If you wear a larger size, you shouldn't get to compare yourself to someone who was considered beautiful, because THEY WERE NOTHING LIKE YOU! See? SEE? Chapter and verse! Here are the numbers, down to the nanometer!
Honestly, I find the weird fetishization of her exact measurements to be a little icky, because sheez, the poor lady didn't have a happy life and she had a tragic death. I think her memory deserves more respect than to reduce her to a collection of inches and inseams.
AGAIN, I am not saying that the editors or commenters are actually DOING this, but I could see where the discussion could get meaner, and I hope it doesn't.
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
You do something else!
Look, how simple, how elegant! May I suggest you give a whirl sometime soon. No need to waste your time on anything this sucky, amirite?
Furthermore: @Samanthrax is Sarcastic: Hell to the fucking yes! I was wondering where you were!
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
@kelsium: Hey there!
06/22/09
*weeps bitter tears*
06/22/09
06/22/09
You make chritter cry!
06/22/09
I like Chritter's ridiculous user name.
@chritter is a nocturnal feminist mancatfish: You need to check your faux-privilege-accusation-hurling... privilege buddy.
06/22/09
I'm trying... the Noodle knows, I'm trying... it's just... so hard. So very, very hard. My invisible faux-privilege-accusation-hurling... knapsack is as deep and wide as the sea.
I blame society.
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
I'm all for combating misinformation, but if it makes people feel good to say "Hey, I wear size X and I'm similar to XYZ beautiful person, I feel better about myself," I don't think we should necessarily...chastise them for that. I have a very, very difficult relationship with my own body, and today's beauty standards are just so narrowly-defined and difficult to attain.
People probably find MM's appearance to be refreshing, and whether they know anything about vintage sizes or not, feel like they can use her "size" as a rallying cry for plus sized beauty. Even if MM didn't wear a size that would be considered "plus" today.
I think a better tactic would be to encourage people not to turn threads into size-weight-BMI comparisons, rather than saying, "Hey, you guys had her size all wrong all this time, you wrongy wrongers! Ha ha!" Because the former is useful and the latter is a little hurtful.
06/22/09
Let's combat false information and weak arguments and tired internet arguments and encourage the acceptance of our own bodies, Marilyn-esque or no.
And then let's sing Kumbayah.
06/22/09
I fear that Ellaesther's Law, freshly minted last week, may well still stand elsewhere in the world ("Ellaesther's Law: Any internet discussion of women's bodies will eventually lean on, and then devolve into furious argument over, Marilyn Monroe's body/dress size."), but perhaps we, here, will be able to get beyond it. Please God!
And not for nothing, but to echo hortense: The far more salient fact to remember from Marilyn Monroe's life is that it ended in tragedy. Poor woman -- we should let her rest in peace.
06/22/09
I guess I just feel like "getting beyond it" means ignoring the problem of fat-hatred.
Do you see what I am trying to say? Blood caffeine is clearly low.
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
Wh crs nywy?
thnk sh lkd grt - nd t 118-140 lbs. sh ws jst th rght wght fr 5'51/2' wmn. dn't cr wht th nrxcs sy!
06/22/09
06/22/09
This is the best thing I have ever read.
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
06/22/09
i'm a freak, apparently ;)
06/22/09
06/22/09