I used to live in Italy, where my job had me interacting with a lot of professional men in their late twenties to early forties. I probably got to know three or four hundred men quite well while I worked there, and I have to say that there were only a handful who I found independent and, for lack of a better word, "together" enough to be attractive. I got to know this thirty-one-year-old engineer with a good-paying job who was drop-dead gorgeous and just the nicest guy you'll ever meet... but he had NO desire to be independent. He would never meet for dinner because he wanted his mom's f***ing spaghetti (NO JOKE), he couldn't bring girls over because his mom didn't approve, he drove a vehicle owned by his parents, the list goes on. It wasn't just parental dependence- he had never traveled alone, most of his social network was people he'd known since he was in primary school, etc. It's been five years and he's married now, God help his Italian wife. My friend stayed in Italy and is now engaged: she lives in an apartment owned by her fiances parents, drives her fiance's parents cars, weekends at her future in-law's country house and got her job through her future in-laws connections. Her THIRTY-YEAR-OLD fiance does not have a bank account seperate from his parents! He works for his parents, for no set salary, and they just give him money when he asks for it. I wish her all the best.
As an aside, I actually didn't have sex with any (Italian) men while I was in Italy, but I always suspected they would be really bad in bed because the vast majority of their sexual experiences occured either in cars, hotel rooms or their parents' house when mom and dad were out at the pizzeria. #overprotectiveparents
No, most parents don't dote on their kids to the point of causing failure to thrive, and I doubt that most Italian mothers do, either. This article took a tragic situation similar to the recent long term kidnapping/abuse cases, and tied it to a totally unrelated cultural phenomenon. #overprotectiveparents
Man, I dislike connections being made to mythical Helicopter Parents. If you put one person in charge of protecting a child from swine flu, insecticide, serial killers, high fructose corn syrup, herpes, social malfunction, developmental troubles, childhood obesity, broken hearts, and human cruelty I don't think it should be a shock when some of those people run amok. It's the diminution of collective responsibility for collective well-being that heaps all these worries on one person's plate. The Italian family cited sounds like a piece of work, but the job of fretting just enough but not too much for things you have no reasonable control over is another mommy trap, in my view.
(I say this, of course, as a former free-range child who went to class in college precisely because no one had made me go in high school and so I knew how. So maybe I do lack some comprehension of the dimensions of the "helicopter parent" idea.) #overprotectiveparents
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I'm so blessed that one of the first phrases of Kali Kidlet was "do mah-seffff", and will throw a flying shitfit if you do not comply in letting her-"sefff" do it. #overprotectiveparents
In Los Angeles (where parenting is a blood sport) a helicopter parent means more than what this article is suggesting. Here if a child doesn't reach a developmental mile stone by the age on whatever check list that parent uses, that is cause for experts to be brought in to MAKE SURE the kid masters said skill.
It has been suggested to me that my 3 yo son needed Occupational Therapy because he didn't eat yoghurt. No, sadly, I'm not making that up. #overprotectiveparents
My mother always said to us that her job as a parent was to raise her children to be independent, aware, interested, interesting, and educated adults- not to take care of children while their young. If she did the first, then the second was accomplished by default. I don't think she's ever said a more wise thing.
And yes, to not do so is a form of child abuse. Every parent can have a different way of doing it. Ultimately, however, your job as a parent is about making a functional adult.
I think my parents are like this - they think that young people who live in basement apartments in their parents' homes are really lucky because they have the independence, yet all the privileges of "living at home." I had some health problems as a kid, and as a result, my parents feel that "living at home" is better than moving out - to this date, I'm not sure if my not-so-good social skills is because I wasn't properly diagnosed as someone with a high-functional form of autism or because I was coddled (especially by my grandparents - they lived with us) as a kid. My grandmother would tell me every single day that going out with boys "before you are ready" was a bad, bad thing. I didn't listen to her, of course. I also didn't listen to her "don't go out with white boys" lecture!
I'm not sure why a 12 year old boy can't tell his parents/grandparents to stop, especially if he realizes that he's "different" from everyone else in his class. Because I definitely would. And I come from a culture where it's expected that one lives at home until marriage. #overprotectiveparents
@PetiteGal: I work in a junior high. We have a girl in ninth grade who does not have any diagnosed learning disabilities, behavioural disorders, psychological or medical problems, etc. She's TINY- I thought she was in fourth grade last year when she was actually in eighth, and at times acts like a toddler. On the first day of school, her grandmother walked her to the gym, sat beside her through the assembly, held her hand and walked her to her homeroom. To put it in perspective, no other parents even entered the school. I think there is so much psychological control in these situations that the thought of asking for independence would never even occur to these kids. They don't perceive there to be an alternative, at least for them. #overprotectiveparents
I worked at a children's museum for a while, and experienced some of this. I once had a mother berate me for having baby formula IN HER CHILD'S LINE OF VISION (because it was manipulating him into thinking breast milk wasn't best-- the kid was like three). I had parents sanitize everything their child touched before they touched it. Parents who wouldn't let their child play because they were too busy telling them HOW to play. The list goes on. The majority of the kids I saw were carefree with normal parents, but I did fear for some of them. And I hadn't thought about it until now, but in my limited experience, the helicopter moms tended to have sons. That's really interesting. #overprotectiveparents
@ketamineKitty: That is interesting. And weird. I'll confess to feeling self-conscious feeding my kid expressed breast milk in front of others, because it was in a bottle, but that's really my own hangup.
Helicopters around here (Orlando) are pretty evenly divided amongst parents of boys and girls, but I would say a greater percentage of girls I see *have* helicopters.
I remember one girl at my son's tae kwon do class. She wouldn't try any of the moves and at one point started screaming and having a tantrum on the mat. The instructor asked her if she was OK. The mother hugged the girl, fixed the instructor with an accusing eye, and said, "Well, YOU told her 'NO.'"
Yeah, in a nice way, 'cause she was doing something wrong.
Thank Pete she never came back. #overprotectiveparents
@ketamineKitty: I think your story has an important message.
"The majority of the kids I saw were carefree with normal parents."
This is the part that always gets missed on these threads. Yes, there are the neurotics, the mammones, the helicopters, but people need to stop assuming they are the norm. They are just the most interesting to talk about. #overprotectiveparents
Does it sound like there are some other factors at work in this case, maybe? Like, if the divorce was acrimonious and the woman thought she had to "keep" the kid from his father, that might kind of explain why she never let him out of the house? Or am I being too generous? #overprotectiveparents
Ugh. I hate helicopter parents. I can tell immediately which kids on the campus where I work have them, as they're the ones who come into my office and expect me to fill out forms for them and hold their hand. I can pick them out of the crowd before they even arrive here, because their mommies and daddies are calling me to set up tours and inquire about scholarships. The kids who will do well in college are making those phone calls and appointments for themselves.
I thank God my parents expected me to do my own shit. My mom was actually confused that they wanted her to meet with my profs on parents' weekend. She was like, aren't you way past the age of parent-teacher conferences? How you're doing here is YOUR problem. #overprotectiveparents
@funnyface: Yes, my parents and I never understood the point of Parents Weekend in college. Sure, you should be familiar with the school where your child will spend their college career, but shouldn't you have done this before the student even applied to the school? Parents Weekend is just an opportunity for the college to spruce up the place and serve better food than they normally do. It's all for show. It's up to the student to decide if this is where they want to be and iron out and wrinkles that arise on a day-to-day basis. #overprotectiveparents
@funnyface: When I went to my college orientation five years ago, people were *shocked* that my mother wasn't there with me. So many of the entering freshman had parents there with them, and they were all, "aww, that one doesn't have a parent with her." Thanks, but I didn't need her there with me. She had to work, and I was a big girl. She didn't know what classes I needed to take; I did. She didn't need to know where my classes were; I did. It's important for kids going off to college to have their shit together (for lack of a better phrase), and I was grateful for my independence. #overprotectiveparents
@TastyBites: At the parents meeting for my college's orientation, they specifically told the parents not to pick their son or daughter's classes for them. They were going to be students, so they had to learn to make their own choices. I picked all my classes on my own and my dad's only reaction was "I wish they had Star Trek and Religion when I was in school!" Then at the end of our table we saw a dad pointing at the course catalogue and ordering his son, "You are going to sign up for THIS section and waitlist THIS class . . ." #overprotectiveparents
@funnyface: I work for a company that sells parking permits online for universities and colleges, and we often get phone calls from parents following up on their son or daughters permits that THEY ordered for them online (usually fathers for daughters and mothers for sons, now that I think of it). So....your daughter is a senior in college and she can't spend those two incredibly difficult two minutes to order her own parking permit? Or make this call herself? Yeah, you're preparing her REAL well for life post-graduation.
I'm Scottish Italian and, from spending entire summers living with family, I would say mammone is more to do with society than the individual. My Auntie moved over to Italy back in the early 70's, married and started a family. She's a hard and determined woman and having watched her interactions with her sons and knowing she wasn't afraid to hit them when they misbehaved (uh, it seems to be a psychotic genetic mix when three under tens try to stave each others heads in with hammers, I wish I was making this up), it's safe to say they weren't coddled yet only one of them lives out of the family home and that's because he's married and has children himself. I also know that her sister-in-law still has two grown daughters that still live with her. It seems to be the given thing, especially in the South where when people say there aren't any jobs, they really mean it. I know people who have been out of work for seven years and not through lack of trying. And people nowadays usually can't afford to get a house unless there are two incomes coming in.
The case above, however, is purely abusive. I'm fairly certain that most of the Italian women I know would be horrified that a child was left so underdeveloped. I mean, bite size pieces? No friends? Motor-skills of a three-year-old? No. For all my criticisms, I will always defend Italian society for the beneficial interest in children. Unfortunately, they just keep on treating them like children as they grow older...
Also, I would like to chime in that yes, blanket statements suck but I was getting told I should marry a nice Italian boy and have kids when I was twelve. And then they tried to set me up with one. At twelve-years-old. My Auntie wasn't allowed to open up a bank account without her husband until the 80's, or so I've been told, despite the fact she worked as an English teacher and earned her own income. Many Catholic countries are more liberal now but mammone is a cultural phenomenon that has gone on well before the present adult generation and it's a long time before misogyny gets flushed out.
This is obviously an extreme example, but this article, and the stories everyone has told in the comments, remind me of what my boyfriend said the other night: "People have been parenting for, what? Since the beginning of humankind. And we still haven't figured it out at all. At all." #overprotectiveparents
I can't make any distinctions for heritage or religion, since the Italian men I know decidedly do not fit this mold, but I know plenty of these mammoni types. Most of the ones in my life are total WASPs with Roman numerals after their names-- in fact, in my high school and college, it seems that the more money your family has, the less capable you will be of getting your shit together and being responsible for yourself. Especially if you happen to be male.
But even that's a weak generalization-- it's everywhere, especially among boys my age. Clearly, our cultural constructs make it much more okay to be an overgrown man-child than an overgrown woman-child, and we're told things like "girls just mature faster" in order to justify it. (Which is true, biologically/psychologically, but the definition of biological/psychological maturity does not encompass shit like "knows how to use a washing machine.")
However, it's not just mothers who feed the system. Example: my noisy, divorced, Irish Catholic family. My younger brother is the Golden Child who Can Do No Wrong, as elected by my father, and only my father. My mother thinks he's an inattentive fuck-up. But there's not much she can do about it-- yes, she refuses to do my brother's laundry, but he just brings his dirty clothes to my dad's with him the next week to have them done. She won't pack his lunch, so my dad gives him money for the weeks he's at her house to buy school lunches, because God forbid he should make his own damn peanut butter sandwich. Meanwhile, I've been doing my own laundry since I turned 12, and have packed my own lunches since first grade. #overprotectiveparents
@bex_atl: One of my male friends in college didn't figure out fabric softener wasn't laundry detergent until his sophomore year. God, he stunk. #overprotectiveparents
@redqueenmeg: One of my good friends was going to Sams Club every week and buying new socks and boxers because he was too embarassed to ask for help until 2 months into Freshman year. We still laugh about it! #overprotectiveparents
Given my experience dating an Italian-American guy whose mother worshipped the ground he walked on and was still doing things like buying him cars well into his late 20s (while his sisters had to hack out their lives on their own), I'm going to say that the epidemic of mama's boys and pampered princes is nothing new (nor is it limited to Italians - I know an awful lot of coddled whitebread boys too. The common thread seems to be being a long-awaited son, often born after a succession of sisters, possibly suffering some illness early in life and generally being treated like a young prince from birth.
See also: my cousin who canceled her wedding to a WASPy mama's boy two days before the ceremony was due to take place, because in a scuffle over wedding details he declared to her that he would always be loyal to his mother over his future wife. He found himself promptly ditched and the huge wedding canceled. I still respect her decision.
I now make it a policy never to date any man who shows signs of expecting women to cater to him just like his mama used to do. My now-boyfriend is fabulously self-reliant, having been raised by a single mom who took no shit from anyone and expected her sons to learn how to take care of themselves).
@Flackette Goes Retro: Oh and, if you ever think it's awkward meeting your boyfriend's parents? Try it as a Scotch-Irish, Protestant-raised, non-churchgoing southern girl and feminist being introduced to a doting Italian mama who still does her son's laundry, has a house plastered in the Virgin Mary and is concerned about your potential for grandchild production. #overprotectiveparents
@Flackette Goes Retro: My boyfriend is Iranian, and while I have never met his parents (they live in Dubai, thank God) I understand from his many rants about them that they believe I am to blame for his bartending job, discovery of alcohol, refusal to work at his dad's company, permanent move to the UK and newfound Atheism. I probably am, in some way, so the thought of meeting them makes me feel a little sick to my stomach!
I should add, though, that we live with this from Mr. JB's family. He had a severe childhood illness and almost died, so his parents, mostly his mother, still carry that with them. The biggest effect it had on his life is that he doesn't have "the fear." He's not afraid of losing his job; he knows his parents will pay the mortgage if he does. They bought Mr JB's car for him because his mother was horrified to hear we'd bought my car with--dun dun dun!--dealer financing. They already had traditional gender roles in that family, but his illness made their overprotectiveness much worse. What I resent the most is Mr. JB's subconscious expectation that I will manage everything. It never even occurred to him that I wouldn't. I've had to come right out and tell him, "I'm sorry, I can't manage that for you; if you want it to change, you have to do it yourself." And then be patient while he does or doesn't. That's been really difficult. Because of course I love to help and I'm not very patient. I suspect that's why he married me. ::sigh:: #overprotectiveparents
@formergr: Seriously, and I resent being the person in the family who has it. Someone else always does his worrying for him. How is that fair? I need him to feel some fear about his career, as I feel about mine, so that we can, you know, provide for our family and afford the comforts of life we've wanted. We can't hang around waiting for his parents and grandparents to die so that we can inherit the fruits of their labor. I doubt he thinks he's doing that, but his mother has actually chastised me for buying household goods because I'll just get them from Mr. JB's grandparents when they die. I'm sorry, they're healthy enough and in their eighties; we're 35. How long are we supposed to wait for our lives to start? And how morbid can you get?! #overprotectiveparents
@TheFormerJuneBronson: Oh my god. Please tell me all about how you manage this because you just described my husband word for word. It's not that he REFUSES to call the landlord/take the car to get the oil changed/remember when the pediatrician appointment is, but it's like he has this ingrained belief that if he drops the ball or just doesn't bother, someone else will Take Care Of It. And since I'm a very TCOI person, it does get TCO. And that's so frustrating, because things need to be done but by doing them myself I feel like I'm enabling him somehow. But I can't NOT do things that must be done. Argh. #overprotectiveparents
@jennyOH: I've given in on a lot of it. Fallen into traditional gender roles without meaning to. I work part-time; he works full-time. Ergo, I manage the kid's life. I clean the house, do the cooking (when I'm home). There are certain tasks that I refuse to do: ironing, his dry cleaning, his doctor/dentist appointments, car care, cooking for when I'm not home, the mortgage and car payment. Those are things for him to manage or neglect, as he sees fit. We're in a standoff about him seeing a doctor right now, actually, because he's suffered a hearing loss and it's driving me nuts to have to repeat myself around him all the time. His family has noticed it too, and I'm sure his boss has as well. But I refuse--so far--to make the appointment and drive him in. I am not his mother. If he's happy being half-deaf, that's his problem. I think he's being an idiot, but that's right where my line is. #overprotectiveparents
10/21/09
As an aside, I actually didn't have sex with any (Italian) men while I was in Italy, but I always suspected they would be really bad in bed because the vast majority of their sexual experiences occured either in cars, hotel rooms or their parents' house when mom and dad were out at the pizzeria. #overprotectiveparents
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(I say this, of course, as a former free-range child who went to class in college precisely because no one had made me go in high school and so I knew how. So maybe I do lack some comprehension of the dimensions of the "helicopter parent" idea.) #overprotectiveparents
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It has been suggested to me that my 3 yo son needed Occupational Therapy because he didn't eat yoghurt. No, sadly, I'm not making that up. #overprotectiveparents
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hahaha! yup that's the way to balance things out huh;) #overprotectiveparents
10/21/09
And yes, to not do so is a form of child abuse. Every parent can have a different way of doing it. Ultimately, however, your job as a parent is about making a functional adult.
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I'm not sure why a 12 year old boy can't tell his parents/grandparents to stop, especially if he realizes that he's "different" from everyone else in his class. Because I definitely would. And I come from a culture where it's expected that one lives at home until marriage. #overprotectiveparents
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Helicopters around here (Orlando) are pretty evenly divided amongst parents of boys and girls, but I would say a greater percentage of girls I see *have* helicopters.
I remember one girl at my son's tae kwon do class. She wouldn't try any of the moves and at one point started screaming and having a tantrum on the mat. The instructor asked her if she was OK. The mother hugged the girl, fixed the instructor with an accusing eye, and said, "Well, YOU told her 'NO.'"
Yeah, in a nice way, 'cause she was doing something wrong.
Thank Pete she never came back. #overprotectiveparents
10/21/09
"The majority of the kids I saw were carefree with normal parents."
This is the part that always gets missed on these threads. Yes, there are the neurotics, the mammones, the helicopters, but people need to stop assuming they are the norm. They are just the most interesting to talk about. #overprotectiveparents
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I thank God my parents expected me to do my own shit. My mom was actually confused that they wanted her to meet with my profs on parents' weekend. She was like, aren't you way past the age of parent-teacher conferences? How you're doing here is YOUR problem. #overprotectiveparents
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The case above, however, is purely abusive. I'm fairly certain that most of the Italian women I know would be horrified that a child was left so underdeveloped. I mean, bite size pieces? No friends? Motor-skills of a three-year-old? No. For all my criticisms, I will always defend Italian society for the beneficial interest in children. Unfortunately, they just keep on treating them like children as they grow older...
Also, I would like to chime in that yes, blanket statements suck but I was getting told I should marry a nice Italian boy and have kids when I was twelve. And then they tried to set me up with one. At twelve-years-old. My Auntie wasn't allowed to open up a bank account without her husband until the 80's, or so I've been told, despite the fact she worked as an English teacher and earned her own income. Many Catholic countries are more liberal now but mammone is a cultural phenomenon that has gone on well before the present adult generation and it's a long time before misogyny gets flushed out.
10/21/09
10/21/09
But even that's a weak generalization-- it's everywhere, especially among boys my age. Clearly, our cultural constructs make it much more okay to be an overgrown man-child than an overgrown woman-child, and we're told things like "girls just mature faster" in order to justify it. (Which is true, biologically/psychologically, but the definition of biological/psychological maturity does not encompass shit like "knows how to use a washing machine.")
However, it's not just mothers who feed the system. Example: my noisy, divorced, Irish Catholic family. My younger brother is the Golden Child who Can Do No Wrong, as elected by my father, and only my father. My mother thinks he's an inattentive fuck-up. But there's not much she can do about it-- yes, she refuses to do my brother's laundry, but he just brings his dirty clothes to my dad's with him the next week to have them done. She won't pack his lunch, so my dad gives him money for the weeks he's at her house to buy school lunches, because God forbid he should make his own damn peanut butter sandwich. Meanwhile, I've been doing my own laundry since I turned 12, and have packed my own lunches since first grade. #overprotectiveparents
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See also: my cousin who canceled her wedding to a WASPy mama's boy two days before the ceremony was due to take place, because in a scuffle over wedding details he declared to her that he would always be loyal to his mother over his future wife. He found himself promptly ditched and the huge wedding canceled. I still respect her decision.
I now make it a policy never to date any man who shows signs of expecting women to cater to him just like his mama used to do. My now-boyfriend is fabulously self-reliant, having been raised by a single mom who took no shit from anyone and expected her sons to learn how to take care of themselves).
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Eloping FTW! #overprotectiveparents
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