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New York, 8:39 PM
Sat Nov 21
25 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
    11/13/09

    In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
    Amazing, insightful post.

    There really is no way to tell what sort of human she would have become under different circumstances – but then is there ever? For all I know Betty would be just as boring in modern times, but last time I checked I didn't believe in feminism for some, or feminism for the nice, or feminism for friends only. #madmen
     Reply
    Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was starred Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was unstarred
    Image of DinaRonson : Elizabeth Cady Stanton DinaRonson : Elizabeth Cady Stanton
    11/12/09

    In reply to Joan Holloway Harris Paper Dolls
    Bottom right corner was my Halloween costume. #joanhollowaypaperdolls
     Reply
    DinaRonson : Elizabeth Cady Stanton was starred DinaRonson : Elizabeth Cady Stanton was unstarred
    Image of sybann sybann
    11/11/09

    In reply to Joan Holloway Harris Paper Dolls
    This is appalling - they've 'shopped the curves right off of Joan's paper doll. WHEN WILL IT END? #joanhollowaypaperdolls
     Reply
    sybann was starred sybann was unstarred
    Image of I, Zombie Normal I, Zombie Normal
    11/11/09

    @sybann: You know, paper dolls' sizes were different back then. #joanhollowaypaperdolls
     Reply
    I, Zombie Normal was starred I, Zombie Normal was unstarred
    Image of LaComtesse LaComtesse
    11/11/09

    In reply to Joan Holloway Harris Paper Dolls
    YES. This is relevant to my interests... #joanhollowaypaperdolls
     Reply
    LaComtesse was starred LaComtesse was unstarred
    Image of bitingfairy bitingfairy
    11/11/09

    In reply to Joan Holloway Harris Paper Dolls
    I really want to buy some cardstock and just print these out and play. I'll be serving cocktails if anyone wants to join me. #joanhollowaypaperdolls
     Reply
    bitingfairy was starred bitingfairy was unstarred
    Image of TransFat TransFat
    11/11/09

    In reply to Joan Holloway Harris Paper Dolls
    The vase! She should have included the back of Dr. Rapist's neck so we could all use it.

    Joan Harris makes play-time FUN! #joanhollowaypaperdolls
     Reply
    TransFat was starred TransFat was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/11/09

    In reply to Joan Holloway Harris Paper Dolls
    Heeee!!! It's an accordion!!! #joanhollowaypaperdolls
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit) BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
    11/11/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles: LULZ that is the best thing I have seen all day! #joanhollowaypaperdolls
     Reply
    BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit) was starred BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit) was unstarred
    Image of dcdulce dcdulce
    11/10/09

    In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
    Betty (and the rest of the women in the show) are a Rorschach test aren't they? Some project their hope that these proto-feminists will blossom into someone recognizable. Others think there is nothing there, just a blot. Others see their mothers. I see her with alot of depth (maybe I project that onto her;) because where there is nothing, there is something.
     Reply
    Edited by dcdulce at 11/10/09 10:43 PM dcdulce was starred dcdulce was unstarred
    Image of sybann sybann
    11/10/09

    In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
    Wow - my age is showing. I not only don't hate Betty - I understand her. She could be my mother - although my father wasn't a "Don," my mother was certainly bored and miserable with the slot her tab was supposed to fit into.

    She did get happier when she started working when I was in HS but was never really happy with her role.

    She's very happy now. She doesn't have to take care of anyone other than herself for the first time in her life . I can't imagine being a prisoner to everyone else's expectations. Aren't you glad we don't have to be? We get to chose. #madmen
     Reply
    sybann was starred sybann was unstarred
    Image of icyblonde icyblonde
    11/10/09

    @sybann: I concur. I love Betty a lot precisely because she's generationally in between my mother and grandmother. I have aunts-in-law who are exactly her age, and I have heard whispered stories much like what she went through.

    Furthermore, I'm sick of people painting her as a bad mother. Instead of being angry with her for that, why not look at the fact that back then getting married pretty much said "you will also have children someday." There was far less in the way of birth control. Just because Betty might've wanted to get married doesn't mean she was ready and interested in also becoming a mother, especially not quite so young. She is suffering from the effects of having no options, and her husband has been a lying, cheating bastard throughout their entire marriage. If she has "flat affect," I think it's pretty freaking understandable! #madmen
     Reply
    sybann promoted this comment icyblonde was starred icyblonde was unstarred
    Image of sybann sybann
    11/11/09

    @icyblonde: It's part of the reason why I get SO irrationally angry when it's suggested that some of us are "priviledged" and have no clue what it's like to face suffering or hardships. It lacks imagination.

    To be truly happy yourself you have to be able to inhabit another's shoes for more than a mile to gauge why they might be angry or abusive or just miserable. You can't just write others off as "jerks." It diminishes both of you.

    We all suffer disappointments and should seek common ground, not separation and alienation. #madmen
     Reply
    sybann was starred sybann was unstarred
    Image of tiredfairy tiredfairy
    11/10/09

    In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
    I doubt this is the last we'll see of Betty. Too much of how the show deals with a certain aspect of womanhood/class and sexism in that era rests on her experiences and viewpoint.

    The thing about Betty is...you're supposed to find her all the things people find her. Pampered. Hollow. Superficial. Cold. She is those things, because she's been made those things. Because no one has ever expected more from her, so she doesn't even know she could be more...although I think she has glimpses of it. And there are clearly embers of a need to be something...to get out...to figure out some other life than this. Women at that time were supposed to be happy little extensions of their husbands, content with a life where they were basically indentured servants. Even with all the privileges in Betty's life, she's still trapped and caged. A pretty prison is still a prison.

    To me, Betty's character is all about restriction. Restricted emotions, restricted choices, restricted ideas, a restricted life. She's a woman on the brink, stuck in a world that limits her, stuck with her own limitations...stuck with a life she should want but doesn't.

    The people who don't understand why she's with Henry seem to have missed the whole scene about divorce then. Even if Don doesn't fight her, he hasn't exactly proven himself to be trustworthy. She has no career, and though she's clearly educated, the only job she had was modeling. She's not really in a position to effectively navigate the world. And Henry is, in every way, a far more transparent man than Don. He lives his life in the public eye, working for a politician. He's not in a position to lie and mislead her the way Don was.

    Betty is, in many ways, what the stereotypical "childish" woman comes from. Because women were treated like children. By partners, by the law, by society. It shouldn't be shocking to anyone that some people can't just snap out of that. And the whole point of her character is exploring where a person like that comes from, and what they do. I find it fascinating because it's so unlike me.

    I think hating her is convenient. Because admitting that women are, in a lot of ways, still expected to be like her is scary. And we resent it. And we resent women like her because they didn't just get out of it. Because we want more agency than that. And identifying with Betty, even in a small way, must feel like admitting that there's still something compelling in that version of womanhood. Otherwise I don't see how anyone could go around defending or forgiving Don as a character while condemning her. #madmen
     Reply
    tiredfairy was starred tiredfairy was unstarred
    Image of Hana Maru Hana Maru
    11/10/09

    @tiredfairy: Hey, have you checked your PMs lately? #madmen
     Reply
    Hana Maru was starred Hana Maru was unstarred
    Image of Where The Mild Things Are Where The Mild Things Are
    11/10/09

    In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
    A lot of liberals, I've found, are bored with Betty for another reason entirely. They can't understand why she doesn't just pick up and leave already, if she's so unhappy. We're on the other side of it—-so feminist that it's hard to wrap our minds around the psychology of someone who isn't.

    I really like this assessment - and I think I end up defending her a lot because of it.

    As for January Jones's acting ability - I'm kind of excited to see her this weekend in SNL, just to prove she can do something than 'ol frozen, deadened-soul-face-lady (I've never seen her in anything else.) #madmen
     Reply
    Where The Mild Things Are was starred Where The Mild Things Are was unstarred
    Image of junani junani
    11/10/09

    @Where The Mild Things Are: and she does it so well, but I was very surprised to catch her in a very different role in Love Actually. But that's true, I haven't seen her in anything else, but I'm thinking she's going to ace at SNL rather as Jon Hamm did. #madmen
     Reply
    Where The Mild Things Are promoted this comment junani was starred junani was unstarred
    Image of Hana Maru Hana Maru
    11/10/09

    In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
    I agree that internalized sexism has a lot to do with the inordinate Betty hate that abounds among MM fans.

    Personally, I don't hate her, and I don't identify her primarily as a privileged person in her world. Her husband has a lot more privilege and agency than her, and he treats her terribly.

    The "She should just leave" crowd, which turned into the "Henry Francis is just another Don Draper; she should just leave and be single" crowd, is misguided in my opinion. Note how much more receptive the lawyer was to her prospects when came in with HF. She would lose her kids for sure without another husband and she doesn't want to do that. She has no assets to her name, not even her father's house, not because she hasn't been working, but because she's been laboring for free for Don for all these years. She couldn't get hired anywhere, even for peanuts as a secretary. She has no credit, she couldn't get a loan, what would you have her do?

    As for her and HF not knowing each other for long, the long courtships of today were not the norm then. Part of the reason for this was the economic imperative for women to marry, and part of this was the social and legal barriers to premarital sex, including the illegality of abortion and restricted access to b.c.

    Henry Francis is not dismissive of her thoughts and desires. He treats her like an adult, and so far, he's been honest with her. He seems not to need to be married to advance his career, as Don does. I hardly see where the comparison is between the two men. #madmen
     Reply
    Hana Maru was starred Hana Maru was unstarred
    Image of mcnez mcnez
    11/10/09

    @Hana Maru: Thanks for the perspective.

    Betty's problems represent conflicts long before and long after the 1960s, so why are we pretending that Betty should have made a choice to leave without support, when we all know people who feel just as trapped in the 21st century? Some laws may have changed, but some attitudes haven't. #madmen
     Reply
    Hana Maru promoted this comment mcnez was starred mcnez was unstarred
    Image of Hana Maru Hana Maru
    11/10/09

    @mcnez: Around here, we don't stand for the "Why won't she just leave!" meme when applied to women today. We recognize that there are real barriers and logical reasons why they wouldn't always.

    It amazes me that the attitude proliferates among Jezzies about a woman fifty years ago. #madmen
     Reply
    Hana Maru was starred Hana Maru was unstarred
    Image of quatrevingtquatre quatrevingtquatre
    11/10/09

    @Hana Maru:
    How can you tell he isn't dismissive of her thoughts and desires? They have had like 20 minutes of screen time this whole season. I understand the justification for her leaving, but Henry Francis isn't awesome just because he isn't Don Draper.

    And I was never in the "she should leave him" crowd because any marriage she gets into in 1963 is going to be some level of what she has now. #madmen
     Reply
    Hana Maru promoted this comment quatrevingtquatre was starred quatrevingtquatre was unstarred
    Image of Hana Maru Hana Maru
    11/10/09

    @quatrevingtquatre: Who said it was about you?

    In the conversations they've had, he's consistently taken her seriously and listened to her. Yes, they don't know each other very well, but it's not realistic for them to just date open-endedly. The culture has changed a lot since then.

    Betty wants to be married, but to a more caring, more honest man. There's a big difference between Don and just any man she might marry. #madmen
     Reply
    Hana Maru was starred Hana Maru was unstarred
    Image of Eric Northman is mine Eric Northman is mine
    11/10/09

    In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
    Wow, you brought the same comment I made in regards to the Feminine Mystique applying to a certain demographic of women Particularly when Betty jets off to Reno and leaves Carla behind with her kids. What about her kids and family? After a long day of work, Carla and other women who didn't have the option not to work, have to go home and still be in charge of running the household/catering to her husband. For this reason, I've always emphatized a lot more with Carla than any other woman on the show. #madmen
     Reply
    Eric Northman is mine was starred Eric Northman is mine was unstarred
    Image of h_bee h_bee
    11/10/09

    @Eric Northman is mine: My family background is very working class, and I have always looked to Carla to see what life was like for my grandmothers. Taking care of rich people's problems and not having a lot of sympathy for their brand of feminism - that was (and is still) the attitude of my matriarchs. In their world women were always working outside of the home because they had to.

    I sometimes wish Mad Men would acknowledge the working class. #madmen
     Reply
    Eric Northman is mine promoted this comment h_bee was starred h_bee was unstarred
    Image of Eric Northman is mine Eric Northman is mine
    11/10/09

    @h_bee: Exactly, it's frustrating when people overlook the privilege that comes with race and class when analyzing Betty. Working class women who had not only worked but shouldered the main burden of running the household were probably too exhausted/drained and didn't have the luxury of worrying about being fulfilled, high society ideals etc. Betty doesn't represent all women in that area. While, she might reflect some things, her experience is not the same for all. Some had it better and some definitely had it worse. #madmen
     Reply
    Eric Northman is mine was starred Eric Northman is mine was unstarred
    Image of OneTwoPunch OneTwoPunch
    11/10/09

    In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
    Interesting demise of their union. At different points, I thought Betty would, in her desperate unhappiness, O.D. on pain pills or pass out on the couch with a cigarette lit to a house fire, OR, steal all of Don's cash out of his secret stash, and then make a run for it and never come back.

    But, a Vegas divorce is a much more logical and saner conclusion to their horribly fraught sham of a marriage.

    At last, an end to his multiple affairs and her petulant, listless sulking, all of which deeply impacted their children. May he find peace with the teacher, and her with the silver fox she ran away with.

    What a depiction of the loneliness and the hell of a bad marriage! Riveting to watch.
     Reply
    Edited by OneTwoPunch at 11/10/09 5:52 PM OneTwoPunch was starred OneTwoPunch was unstarred
    Image of futuremouse futuremouse
    11/10/09

    In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
    I think the last scene with Betty and then the cut to Carla with the children is a perfect cap to the arc of the show this season. All these characters are struggling and clawing to keep hold of this perfect world that's slipping away. And it turns out, what their trying so hard to keep hold of is, as Latoya has pointed out, privelege, pure and simple. Mad Men is, I think, brilliant for its willingness to show us the beauty and the glamour and the gilded image of these people's lives and then tear it away and reveal what's underneath.

    The brilliance of Betty's breakdown, and the gorgeous Feminine Mystique melodrama of it all, is predicated on the fact that she is allowed, and able to do so because she has Carla. She has the luxury of having this massive collapse and sitting for days in the same gorgeous dress because she knows someone else will make sure things function.

    That's not to say her distress is not real or heartbreaking. It is, but Betty's proto-feminist awakening is set against the backdrop of Carla's constant presence which is, I think, the most interesting part of that story arc. At the end of it all, Betty can fly away with her new man and Don can start all over because they are able to leave the kids at home with Carla while they are off finding themselves in their new lives. But at the same time, every season, the ability of all the characters to coast on the priveleges given them by their race and class has been slipping. I'm extremely interested to see how this continues. #madmen
     Reply
    futuremouse was starred futuremouse was unstarred
    Image of Eric Northman is mine Eric Northman is mine
    11/10/09

    @futuremouse: Yes, I hate how people overlook the privilege that comes with race when analyzing this situation. Betty's trapped, unsatisfied, Okay but what about African Americans in that area, not only do you have to deal with racism and exclusion from society, in the private sphere and in your community, you had to deal with sexism. The intersection of race, class and gender is probably a major reason why everyone isn't singing Poor Betty. #madmen
     Reply
    Eric Northman is mine was starred Eric Northman is mine was unstarred
    Image of TopLevelExecutive TopLevelExecutive
    11/11/09

    @Eric Northman is mine: Basically. #madmen
     Reply
    Eric Northman is mine promoted this comment TopLevelExecutive was starred TopLevelExecutive was unstarred
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