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Hana Maru
06:01 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
I agree that internalized sexism has a lot to do with the inordinate Betty hate that abounds among MM fans.

Personally, I don't hate her, and I don't identify her primarily as a privileged person in her world. Her husband has a lot more privilege and agency than her, and he treats her terribly.

The "She should just leave" crowd, which turned into the "Henry Francis is just another Don Draper; she should just leave and be single" crowd, is misguided in my opinion. Note how much more receptive the lawyer was to her prospects when came in with HF. She would lose her kids for sure without another husband and she doesn't want to do that. She has no assets to her name, not even her father's house, not because she hasn't been working, but because she's been laboring for free for Don for all these years. She couldn't get hired anywhere, even for peanuts as a secretary. She has no credit, she couldn't get a loan, what would you have her do?

As for her and HF not knowing each other for long, the long courtships of today were not the norm then. Part of the reason for this was the economic imperative for women to marry, and part of this was the social and legal barriers to premarital sex, including the illegality of abortion and restricted access to b.c.

Henry Francis is not dismissive of her thoughts and desires. He treats her like an adult, and so far, he's been honest with her. He seems not to need to be married to advance his career, as Don does. I hardly see where the comparison is between the two men. #madmen
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Eric Northman is mine
06:01 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
Wow, you brought the same comment I made in regards to the Feminine Mystique applying to a certain demographic of women Particularly when Betty jets off to Reno and leaves Carla behind with her kids. What about her kids and family? After a long day of work, Carla and other women who didn't have the option not to work, have to go home and still be in charge of running the household/catering to her husband. For this reason, I've always emphatized a lot more with Carla than any other woman on the show. #madmen
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OneTwoPunch
05:51 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
Interesting demise of their union. At different points, I thought Betty would, in her desperate unhappiness, O.D. on pain pills or pass out on the couch with a cigarette lit to a house fire, OR, steal all of Don's cash out of his secret stash, and then make a run for it and never come back.

But, a Vegas divorce is a much more logical and saner conclusion to their horribly fraught sham of a marriage.

At last, an end to his multiple affairs and her petulant, listless sulking, all of which deeply impacted their children. May he find peace with the teacher, and her with the silver fox she ran away with.

What a depiction of the loneliness and the hell of a bad marriage! Riveting to watch.
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Edited by OneTwoPunch at 11/10/09 5:52 PM OneTwoPunch was starred OneTwoPunch was unstarred

futuremouse
05:44 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
I think the last scene with Betty and then the cut to Carla with the children is a perfect cap to the arc of the show this season. All these characters are struggling and clawing to keep hold of this perfect world that's slipping away. And it turns out, what their trying so hard to keep hold of is, as Latoya has pointed out, privelege, pure and simple. Mad Men is, I think, brilliant for its willingness to show us the beauty and the glamour and the gilded image of these people's lives and then tear it away and reveal what's underneath.

The brilliance of Betty's breakdown, and the gorgeous Feminine Mystique melodrama of it all, is predicated on the fact that she is allowed, and able to do so because she has Carla. She has the luxury of having this massive collapse and sitting for days in the same gorgeous dress because she knows someone else will make sure things function.

That's not to say her distress is not real or heartbreaking. It is, but Betty's proto-feminist awakening is set against the backdrop of Carla's constant presence which is, I think, the most interesting part of that story arc. At the end of it all, Betty can fly away with her new man and Don can start all over because they are able to leave the kids at home with Carla while they are off finding themselves in their new lives. But at the same time, every season, the ability of all the characters to coast on the priveleges given them by their race and class has been slipping. I'm extremely interested to see how this continues. #madmen
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Lymed
05:34 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
There is a difference between Betty as a bad mother and Don as a bad father. The difference is that we have seen Don be repentent about how he fails as a father. It doesn't excuse him as a father, but as an outsider watching, it makes you feel different about Don. Don also recognizes the emotional needs of his children, even if he doesn't always fulfill those needs. Betty is often clueless to their needs which makes it seem she sees them as no more than dolls. #madmen
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Hana Maru
06:22 PM

@Lymed: "we have seen Don be repentent about how he fails as a father....Don also recognizes the emotional needs of his children, even if he doesn't always fulfill those needs. Betty is often clueless to their needs which makes it seem she sees them as no more than dolls."

I don't get this. There have been a lot of scenes of Betty asking for his help with discipline, and him responding with apathy before he goes out again to fuck somebody.

When the Kennedy stuff was going on, Don didn't want the kids to see, but Betty didn't think it was realistic to hide it from them. When they were having the "living room" talk about their impending divorce, he lied to the kids about how he wasn't really leaving, to make himself look better for the moment, against Betty's head shaking. Betty is depressed and often curt with the kids, but she's involved and aware of their lives and doesn't treat them like dolls.

Don identifies with his children, in a way, because he feels sorry for himself for his bad childhood. I think laying down with Sally after his memory of his father dying was more for him than for her. He very badly wants his children to have a better childhood, but his way of ensuring that is to lock Betty into full time parenting. I think the first time he had a flashback to his family was when he sabotaged Betty's opportunity to get back into modeling. #madmen
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AndPreciousLittleofThat
05:32 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
I've been trying to figure out what it is that's been bugging me about Mad Men, and while listening to a podcast on something entirely different yesterday, I finally got it. The guy in the podcast is a real big history fanatic, and he was recalling asking one of his professors what the hardest thing was about learning history. The answer: being able to forget what comes next, and put yourself in the shoes of people at the time.

I think Mad Men is predicated exactly on knowing what IS coming next. And this is becoming a problem. There's an increasing distance I feel from the show, as if we're complicit in every little anachronism. We're supposed to laugh along with the confusion over a "chip and dip" set, and we're supposed to tut-tut when Betty refers to "your people" when talking to Carla.

I think this is a show that's great to analyze, but not great for interpretation. It feels (to me, anyway) as if we're all supposed to view it through a narrow prism, namely Matt Weiner's. #madmen
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Luckwouldhaveit
05:50 PM

@AndPreciousLittleofThat: I think that hits the nail on the head of the Betty scorn -- we look at Betty through the prism of second- and third-wave feminism, and then object when she doesn't do/live/react the way we think that she should. In the same way, we see her interactions with Carla from a modern perspective and judge accordingly. #madmen
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
05:21 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
I have a lot of empathy for Betty, but I have to say again - I WISH a better actress were in the role. I think there'd be more to Betty's inner life if there were a more capable woman cast. Yes, she has dead eyes, but I really think it's more on the side of "bad actress" than "acting choice". Flame away, January Jones lovers! #madmen
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SarahMC
05:22 PM

@BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit): Not a fan of her specifically or anything but how can a different actress give her a richer inner life if the script is the same? #madmen
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
05:47 PM

@SarahMC: Well, above it was noted that Joan's and Peggy's arcs had gone away from the inner story as well, but the actresses have still conveyed to me all the inner turmoil and emotions. Never a dead-eyed moment. I love those two ladies and have never felt them incapable. #madmen
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redqueenmeg
05:20 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
You wanna know something? I completely lost my inner life when I gave birth. I didn't get it back for nearly four years. #madmen
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Cerridwen
05:53 PM

@redqueenmeg: To add to that, my partner, when he was severely clinically depressed, completely lost his inner life, too. He didn't even dream for months. I'm not saying Betty is clinically depressed, but melancholy can have a really deep effect on the richness of one's inner world, to the point of destroying it. #madmen
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Diziet_Sma
05:18 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
"The shades of insight into her motivations and personality have generally vanished, as Betty is mainly used to help advance the plot, at the expense of her own development… this isn't unique to Betty - Peggy and Joan also lost their inner lives this season, appearing mostly in the context of the men they were involved with (romantically or professionally)."

THIS. Wow Latoya, you just absolutely nailed for me the reason why I found this season oddly less-enjoyable and engaging than the previous two (except the season finale, which was awesome). I liked Betty a lot more in the previous two seasons, she seemed to have more, I don't know, chutzpah. I particularly enjoyed that incident with the shotgun that you mentioned. It seems like that Betty has vanished.

I would add that, for me, I know the reason I like and forgive many of the male characters (Don and Roger particularly) for their failings: it's simple - charm. Betty and Pete are charmless. I'm not saying it's right, but it's true.
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Edited by Diziet_Sma at 11/10/09 5:27 PM Diziet_Sma was starred Diziet_Sma was unstarred

Diziet_Sma
05:22 PM

@Diziet_Sma: I don't know why that double-posted. Some kind of technical fuckery! #madmen
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linnyt is a walking cliché
05:18 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
I mostly feel sorry for Betty. She doesn't even realize she could be independent. She hasn't considered it as an option and disregarded it; it was just never on the table. If she ever gets there, I think she would be happier and the audience wouldn't hate her so much. #madmen
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rodmanstreet
05:16 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
Don't worry, Betty (and January), two seasons from now, when you inevitably divorce Mr Boring and strike out on your own and discover you have more to offer than your looks, we'll all be pretending that we were rooting for you all along.
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Edited by rodmanstreet at 11/10/09 5:21 PM rodmanstreet was starred rodmanstreet was unstarred

TransFat
05:21 PM

@rodmanstreet: Couldn't have said it better. Her story is long from over. Give it some time damn it! #madmen
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GirlFailer
05:16 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
I've sympathized with Betty the past 3 seasons, but she really lost me on the finale. I think what bothered me the most wasn't her leaving, but the fact that she left behind two of her kids, and blatantly favored one. It's making me question if she'll take Sally and Bobby with her after the marriage is over. I also get the willies from her new beau. Something ain't right there. #madmen
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
05:20 PM

@GirlFailer: It's been pointed out that at the time people didn't think a baby could be away from his mother for extended periods of time. I do hope she either visits or sends for the kids once they have residency set up, though. #madmen
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sleepeatread
05:21 PM

@GirlFailer: I agree with you about getting the willies from Francis.
Maybe Betty has to take the baby though...breastfeeding? #madmen
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GirlFailer
05:22 PM

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: Yeah, I got that. I guess it upset me that she didn't think to bring the others kids, too. Not that she's a model parent or anything, but I was definitely disappointed that the kids were left behind. I wonder if Don is coming home to the kids, or if Carla is there full time. Poor Carla, she saw this whole thing coming. #madmen
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curiousgeorgiana
05:25 PM

@GirlFailer: I'm not sure she's going for the entire 6 weeks, but surely the kids can't miss that much school?

And I think she is still breastfeeding the baby.

But Henry Francis gives me the creeps. Big time. #madmen
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GirlFailer
05:26 PM

@sleepeatread: I think she's using formula, I noticed her feeding with a bottle a few times. I think at that time the "poor" people only nursed. #madmen
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Maritsa
05:27 PM

@GirlFailer: I get the willies from him too, but I disagree about the kids thing. Someone mentioned the other day that it was common to establish residency in NV by getting an apartment, then return to NY for a while. It's possible she wasn't leaving for a full 6 weeks. Of course, she could have waited a couple months, too. Maybe she didn't want to give Don the chance to change his mind on the consent.

Also I think she took Gene because she's breastfeeding (which I don't think has been established on the show, but is at least plausible) and/or she didn't want to pull Sally and Bobby out of school.

I don't think Betty's mother of the year by any means, but I don't see her as being a totally horrible Joan Crawford-esque mother. #madmen
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Sev
05:30 PM

@GirlFailer: Leaving behind the kids was so strange to me because I kept thinking "why can't Don watch them?" And then I remembered it was the 60s and men did litte, if any, actual parenting. #madmen
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GirlFailer
05:30 PM

@Maritsa: I didn't even think about school. Duh. I don't think she's nursing, though. I remember seeing her use a bottle, and Don had been getting up with the baby in the evenings. I agree, she's not Joan Crawford-esque, and honestly, a lot of her parenting tactics were common for that era. #madmen
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PrettyB is like Whoa
05:31 PM

@GirlFailer: I've heard this criticism many times, but I can't help but think how upset people would be if she left her newborn baby behind? It really seemed terribly practical to take the baby and not take the older ones out of school. Why Don isn't staying in the house with the kids while she's away...that's a question I'd like to see raised more. #madmen
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Maritsa
05:31 PM

@GirlFailer: That makes sense, breastfeeding wasn't widespread among white wealthy suburban moms in the early 60s. I just thought it was a possibility. #madmen
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GirlFailer
05:33 PM

@PrettyB is like Whoa: Yeah, I didn't even think about school. #madmen
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Sorcha
05:33 PM

@GirlFailer: Weren't Sally and Bobby in school at the time? 6 weeks is a long time to be away from school. Also, they were upset about being separated from Don, so I think they would have resented Betty even more if she dragged them all the way to Reno, and with a new man no less. (i bet if she had done that some people would have criticized her for that instead too.) Gene is a newborn, and even if he wasn't being breastfed he still need more maternal care than the older ones no?. Maybe she decided to take him to make it easier on Carla too (if she is to stay with them for the 6 weeks) or for Don (if he is to visit his children while she's away).
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girlleastlikelyto
05:35 PM

@GirlFailer: Yes, when she had the baby, the nurse asked if she would be "giving it the breast," and she said, "No."

My mom breastfed in the early '60s, and she said people were kind of taken aback at her being so "primitive."

When I saw that last scene with Sally and Bobby with Carla, I said, "And these kids will remember for the rest of their lives when their mother went to Reno with a stranger for six weeks at Christmastime and left them with Carla." I mean, I'm still pissed about when my parents left me with my grandparents at Thanksgiving time to go to my brother's wedding in Hawaii when I was about Sally's age.

I have a lot of sympathy for Betty, but at that moment it all transferred to Sally. #madmen
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GirlFailer
05:35 PM

@Sorcha: Hey guys, I get it, school and stuff! I'm not a Betty basher, I just was upset to see the older kids excluded, but the school problem makes sense. #madmen
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Maritsa
05:39 PM

@GirlFailer: No, you don't understand!! They were in school! : )

I blame the length of time it takes to craft a good comment. I posted mine and saw other people had already addressed the BFing while I was typing and hiding my Jez window as people walked by my door. #madmen
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GirlFailer
05:42 PM

@girlleastlikelyto: Yeah, the older kids have all my sympathy. I do hope Betty figures herself out with Henry, though. I was kind of bummed when she folded after he told her he'd take care of her. Like, she wasn't going to fight for her portion of the money, because Henry said he'd "take care of her". #madmen
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Sorcha
05:44 PM

@GirlFailer: haha, I'm sorry if it seems we're ganging up on you. It was not my intention, I was just offering some possible "what ifs." You're definitely entitled to think "what if Betty does favor Gene over her other kids?" that's fine, who really knows?
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Edited by Sorcha at 11/10/09 5:44 PM Sorcha was starred Sorcha was unstarred

GirlFailer
05:45 PM

@Maritsa: I know, I just wanted to state it for the record! :) It takes me about 10 minutes to type a comment, so I can't say anything. #madmen
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Cerridwen
06:03 PM

@Sev: I see it in line with previous things, like Don saying "the kids are with Francine" when Betty returns from meeting with Henry after the JFK assasination. I was like, "What? You can't even supervise your children for an afternoon while their mother is out? Srsly, Don?" #madmen
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Diziet_Sma
05:15 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
"The shades of insight into her motivations and personality have generally vanished, as Betty is mainly used to help advance the plot, at the expense of her own development… this isn't unique to Betty - Peggy and Joan also lost their inner lives this season, appearing mostly in the context of the men they were involved with (romantically or professionally)."

THIS. Wow Latoya, you just absolutely nailed for me the reason why I found this season oddly less-enjoyable and engaging than the previous two (except the season finale, which was awesome). I would add that, for me, I know the reason I like and forgive many of the male characters - Don, Roger particularly - for their failings is simple: charm. Betty and Pete are charmless. I'm not saying it's right, but it's true. #madmen
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tiredfairy
05:44 PM

@Diziet_Sma: To me, that seemed deliberate, at least in terms of Betty and Joan. That they both lost themselves in their relationship. Betty loses herself with the pregnancy and trying to fix her marriage, then with her father's illness. Joan loses herself with her marriage to someone clearly not worthy of her, because she thinks it's what she's supposed to do.

Plus, Betty in particular did have a lot of development this season. Some of it involved regression, but not all of it.

Interestingly, I think the charm thing depends. Don and Roger are "rogue" charming...the kind of charming we're supposed to find appealing about men. But at least in Don's case, it's all facade. Betty is all about restriction...emotional, physical. Pete is about a kind of awkward ambition. Less charming, but more real. #madmen
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Diziet_Sma
05:58 PM

@tiredfairy: Charm is facade, but it is, you know, charming! #madmen
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hfree
05:14 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
I think Betty's storyline this season was framed by the pregnancy and how she really felt trapped by it. Add to that the death of her father and then learning about Don and her world just collapsed. I think that there wasn't much to her this season because her personality was just shattered by those three events happening in sucession. I think the world for her this season was a big pit of quicksand that she just couldn't seem to escape and for her Henry Francis was a branch she grabbed for. It may turn out that the branch is really a snake, but for now she needs it/him for safety. #madmen
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
05:16 PM

@hfree: I think so, too. I hope that he turns out to be a genuinely nice guy who treats her well. She deserves some happiness. #madmen
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Cerridwen
05:47 PM

@hfree: I really got this, too, with Don's remark that she's had a "rough couple of weeks" and she looks pointedly at him and says "I've had a rough year." This was totally driven home with JFK's assasination, too, which was the straw that broke the camel's proverbial back. The unplanned pregnancy, her father's death and the revelations about Don broke her and JFK's death made her realize that she didn't want to/couldn't put it back together the way it was before. and I totally do not blame her for creating a liferaft with Henry, even if it might turn out to be a foolish choice. I've been in a similar situation of wanting to get out of a relationship and feeling trapped and crafting myself a safety net so that the fall wasn't so painful. I think (hope?) that next season will see her begin to rediscover her inner life. #madmen
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Maritsa
05:09 PM

In reply to Bon Voyage, Betty! And Other Meditations On Mad Men
The interview with Weiner in today's Daily Beast was interesting. He said Betty's relationship with Francis is a "true, romantic attachment." Or at least Betty sees it as one. Romantic, OK. True? I don't know. She barely knows him.

He also said the Draper marriage is "unambiguously over."

[www.thedailybeast.com] #madmen
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rodmanstreet
05:20 PM

@Maritsa: He also said that they weren't going to make a big deal out of the JFK assassination and that Joan wasn't coming back to Stirling Cooper. #madmen
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hovy
05:22 PM

@rodmanstreet: Well, to be fair, Joan never did return (officially) to Sterling-Cooper proper.

She did, however, return to the brand new Sterling-Cooper-Draper-Pyrce. #madmen
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rodmanstreet
05:31 PM

@hovy: Touché #madmen
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Maritsa
05:33 PM

@rodmanstreet: IIRC, he didn't say she wasn't coming back, only that when people asked "When is she coming back," he answered "Who said she's coming back?"

I think his explanation on JFK was that he changed his mind. Obviously he could here too. #madmen
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