An Asian American friend of mine (her parents are from China, she's grown up culturally American) says that her dad loves that he's considered "slim" or "average" over here where he gets called a "fatass" in China.
When I lived in Japan, I would often get comments about my appearance from my co-workers. They would often comment on how thin I was, how pretty I was, or my hair and eyes, etc. One of my teachers even once said I looked sexy (it was a little weird actually). Thankfully, I never got any comments on my breast size, but I have had (western) friends who had. I don't know know if they would treat their Japanese co-workers the same way though. The Japanese, are in general, pretty private-- it is not unheard of for someone to come into the office on Monday and announce he got married over the weekend, without his co-workers knowing that he was engaged or even had a girlfriend. In my experience, the Japanese are curious about the lives of foreigners around them, which sometimes cause them to break the normal social barriers.
That being said, there is still a lot of sexism in Japan, especially in the workplace. So, I don't think a woman gaining weight would be treated with the same levity.
I went to Japan two years ago and noticed the Japanese are beginning to gain the same weight as Americans - mostly I think because the typical seaweed and fish diets are rapidly being replaced with the same corn-syrup crap were eating. All the subway ads were for McGriddles.
I know this is a serious article about weight issues but all I can think is "Delicious Kit-Kat!"
Japan is home to a myriad of insane kit-kat flavors like Pickled Plum, bubblegum (made with blue chocolate), mango, rose, lemon vinegar, tea, red bean, sweet potato, and my favorite cherry blossom!
In the book "Out" by Natsuro Kirino, there's a character who is described as chubby and plump and it is not a good thing. I have a friend who works in Tokyo right now and she is always talking about the difficulty of finding clothes in her size (of which she is a 6) so I think there is a definite double standard. However, there are not many chubby Japanese males and I read somewhere (possibly here) that they too have the need to adhere to the skinny body type.
@dummyfakeroller: "the difficulty of finding clothes in her size (of which she is a 6) "
Oy, so true. I am a small in American sizes, and clothes shopping in Japan was a massive chore. It was completely impossible to find skirts or jeans to fit me.
@dummyfakeroller: One of my best friends lived in Japan for a couple of years, and as an athletic US size 8 was too big to shop in regular clothes stores. She said once you get above a certain size, you have to go to the SUPERMARKET.
And yes, it is a double-standard--there is no, "oh, how cute that you're chubby" for women in Japan; that's men only. /caveat: anecdotal evidence
I don't take it as an insult anymore. Thankfully, I haven't met very many vicious people who would look at me straight in the face and call me fat, but on the few occasions that it's happened, I've smiled, said thank you, and offered to cook them dinner. It's hard, but it's humorous to watch them immediately deflate.
My favourite reply is to immediately look horrified, grab my stomach fat and yell, "WHERE THEY HELL DID THIS COME FROM?!?! THIS ISN'T MINE!" and then thank them for pointing it out. The recipient either thinks your crazy, or feels embarrassed. Point being, mission accomplished.
I lived in Hong Kong for several years and observed the same thing in that culture. Locals (both male and female) would comment to me about perceived changes in my weight. In some cases, I would have seen the person only a day or two prior to the comment being made. And the questions would be both about gains and loss of weight.
I am a woman and would be asked this of men or women, so from my experience, this has nothing to do with gender specific body-stereotyping.
My guess (and it's only a guess) is that it has something to do with weight being an indicator of relative wealth. A typical greeting in Cantonese is loosely translated as "have you eaten rice yet?", which hearkens back to war-time food shortages. Only those who had means had food and therefore had a little more flesh on their bones. I dunno...just a guess.
@legallynonblonde: My boyfriend was explaining to me yesterday how in Russian you can describe a fat stomach using the word for "good" or "friendly." And I think it does indeed come from the idea that there has often been a lack of food in Russia.
But if you are a girl, you have to thin to be considered desirable.
For me, I don't think that it would never not be an insult. I think commentary on people's bodies is rude, unless you make it very clear it's a compliment, and even then it depends on the person saying it.
Why do we need to talk about each other's bodies anyway? Unless my opinion is asked, I generally stay away from that.
@greengrey: I am so the same. Being someone who deals with comments about my body in any form badly, I realize that it's never, ever smart to bring it up. Even larger friends who have lost weight, I never give positive affirmations about their bodies, even if I am thinking it. It can make you feel good but still put you in a spot where you know people are thinking about your body.
@greengrey: I agree that any physical appearance comment can be rude. Ever since I had an experience with losing quite a bit of weight from being very ill and the resulting COMPLIMENTS I had from the change, I watch what I say to people. You often don't know why they look the way they do. What is accepted as "beauty" in our culture can often be the same words used to describe somebody who is seriously sick.
@palebluepixie: Yeah, that's also why it's good to be cautious. Weight losses/gains can be bad things, even if someone thinks it looks good the "complimentee" might not be flattered.
Stick to telling people you like their hair/make up/outfits! :P
I think the fact that "happily plump" is associated with being taken care of by a woman is a pretty straightforward indication that its a double standard.
I'm Hispanic and my relatives are always telling me 'You look a little fatter!' Now I know to them it's a compliment, but I always have this inner conflict to accept it as such when it's an insult in the American culture I identify with.
@bitingfairy: Sub-Jewish for Hispanic and I get the exact same thing. I am NEVER big enough for the elder set in my family. They must feed me at all times. It's like the bus in Speed. Less than 5 insistances I eat-eat-because-it's-good-for-me or they blow up.
I get it though. Many of them survived the holocaust or are first generation so eating is a real sign of living and living well.
@bitingfairy: I lived with an old Spanish woman during study-abroad. She would constantly complain that I never ate enough (even though I felt stuffed for pretty much an entire semester), but then she would constantly speculate about my weight and whether I had put on a few pounds (which I had--see above). I tried REALLY hard not to let it bother me, but it was a struggle.
@TransFat: My mum is the same way with my sister--she's always 'too thin', and her weight serves as a kind of catch-all indication of her happiness. If she's particularly thin mum invariably assumes she's working and partying too hard and hasn't slept in weeks (which, ok, is often true).
On the other hand, I'm always a bit too big as far as mum's concerned, which means I'm unhappy to her mind as well. Amazing how she can't seem to disconnect size and emotional state!
@KetchupFiend: I wonder if his "official" weight is what's on his driver's license or something. You don't bother to change that often/ever, even if you are aware that you've gained some weight. And if he had to borrow a scale, it's clear he's not weighing himself every day, and some changes in how clothing fit can be attributed to laundry mishaps, etc. There's also the power of blissful denial.
@cate3710: Good point about the driver's license - mine says I'm about 14 pounds lighter than I am right now. But for me, 14 pounds is the difference between 2 pant sizes. Hell, yeah I noticed.
@brettashley: I just moved from NYS to LA, and California requires it. I felt really awkward at first, but I guess since everyone has to do it, it isn't a terribly big deal. If I had to that in NYS, my weight would have increased 40 pounds from the time I got my license to the time I left, so it seems kind of pointless. I actually found out at the doctor's that I over-estimated on my California license; it's not like they have scales at the DMV anyway.
I don't want to stereotype, but my mother is Japanese and she is consumed with everyone's weight, male or female. She measures your happiness by how fat you are. There isn't a conversation that goes by where she doesn't say, "I saw so-and-so and she's so skinny." Or "I ran into so-and-so and he's so fat."
It's such a cultural thing that her and her friends can have a whole conversation speculating about whether or not you're pregnant even when you're in the same room. It took a long time for me to convince her that this isn't a compliment.
@kookla: My mom does the fat/skinny commentary too, and she's a Brooklyn-born Jew. At the same time, she's overwhelmingly preoccupied with her own appearance ~ it all extends from a value system which prioritizes the external, and she presumes that everyone else does or should operate thusly.
So how long until the rest of the world is entirely permeated by these cultural scripts? When no woman anywhere feels good about having a righteous ass, the very end will be nigh.
@ritualtheory: My WASP-y dad did this too. When I was nine, "You're fat, you need to lose weight." And again at 15, "How much do you weigh? Let me just consult this chart. You need to lose five pounds. I don't care if you're on the tennis team, just do it."
Except in his case I think it had less to do with my perceived health and more to do with how my weight reflected on him as a father. Who wants a chubby daughter?
@rixatrix: Whenever people make these comments on Jezebel, I am eternally grateful that my family refrained from making weight an issue when I was growing up.
On the one hand I think parents have a responsibility to make sure their kids are healthy, and if they know their kid is either over or underweight because of poor eating/exercise habits, then I guess it's good they speak up. My best friend in college was chubby/fat as a middle-schooler, and her dad made some comment about it and started jogging with her. Her dad is pretty awesome, and a really great guy, so his comments never struck me as anything but acceptable fatherly concern. However, when I think about it, 10 years later, my friend definitely has some body-image issues. Then again, so do I, and no one ever commented to me about weight.
@goldengirl11: Yeah, I guess we're all bound to end up a little self-conscious in this culture. And really, I grew up feeling okay about myself. I think it helped that I felt my major asset was being smart and funny - my looks and my body were sort of secondary. And he did push me to get involved in sports as a kid, which I hated at the time, but has done more and more for me as I grow older. I just remember the comments he would make, like, "You're smart and pretty, if you lost a little weight, you'd be a real knockout." As though the smarts weren't enough - you have to be a KNOCKOUT to get what you want in life. Luckily, I was clever enough to cry foul in my head; even at 14, my bullshit meter was on full blast.
There are indeed different standards for men and women. In our society and in most Western societies, a fat man is not considered as outrageous or as offensive as a fat woman.
However, we also must consider the cultural context of the word. Being "fat" here versus elsewhere might have different consequences and levels of social acceptance. What Americans considered big butts are considered desirable by a lot of Latin/Hispanic cultures.
Any Japanese people care to weigh in on the connotations of the word and the acceptance of fatness in Japan?
@Mafalda para Presidente: Fatness is presented almost identically. Fatness in Japan, just as it is in the USA, is associated with laziness, self-indulgence, poor health etc. Mainstream media in Japan stereotypes fat women much in the same way and it is expected for every woman to be on a diet. Comic book nerds in the US and Japan are similarly stereotyped as fat people too lazy to exercise.
The only big difference I can think of (other than sumo wrestling) is that fatness has also been associated with the downsides of Western influence in Japan and blaming the importation of fast food etc. Premodern Japanese beauties were called "willow waisted" and the ideal silhouette for the kimono is lean, clean lines.
Japan hosts some of the worst body-image-disorder-impelling standards for women. I highly doubt the playful jab at happy-chubby extends to women in the same way.
You also have to consider that the author of this piece is a very self conscious foreigner, self described as a tall, long-legged exotic in a "land of (what some Japanese disparagingly call) big faces, small noses, boring black hair, little eyes and short legs." I don't want to take his ideas of body image at face value, period.
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That being said, there is still a lot of sexism in Japan, especially in the workplace. So, I don't think a woman gaining weight would be treated with the same levity.
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Japan is home to a myriad of insane kit-kat flavors like Pickled Plum, bubblegum (made with blue chocolate), mango, rose, lemon vinegar, tea, red bean, sweet potato, and my favorite cherry blossom!
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Oy, so true. I am a small in American sizes, and clothes shopping in Japan was a massive chore. It was completely impossible to find skirts or jeans to fit me.
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And yes, it is a double-standard--there is no, "oh, how cute that you're chubby" for women in Japan; that's men only. /caveat: anecdotal evidence
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My favourite reply is to immediately look horrified, grab my stomach fat and yell, "WHERE THEY HELL DID THIS COME FROM?!?! THIS ISN'T MINE!" and then thank them for pointing it out. The recipient either thinks your crazy, or feels embarrassed. Point being, mission accomplished.
08/31/09
I am a woman and would be asked this of men or women, so from my experience, this has nothing to do with gender specific body-stereotyping.
My guess (and it's only a guess) is that it has something to do with weight being an indicator of relative wealth. A typical greeting in Cantonese is loosely translated as "have you eaten rice yet?", which hearkens back to war-time food shortages. Only those who had means had food and therefore had a little more flesh on their bones. I dunno...just a guess.
08/31/09
But if you are a girl, you have to thin to be considered desirable.
08/31/09
Why do we need to talk about each other's bodies anyway? Unless my opinion is asked, I generally stay away from that.
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Stick to telling people you like their hair/make up/outfits! :P
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I get it though. Many of them survived the holocaust or are first generation so eating is a real sign of living and living well.
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On the other hand, I'm always a bit too big as far as mum's concerned, which means I'm unhappy to her mind as well. Amazing how she can't seem to disconnect size and emotional state!
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It's such a cultural thing that her and her friends can have a whole conversation speculating about whether or not you're pregnant even when you're in the same room. It took a long time for me to convince her that this isn't a compliment.
08/31/09
So how long until the rest of the world is entirely permeated by these cultural scripts? When no woman anywhere feels good about having a righteous ass, the very end will be nigh.
08/31/09
Except in his case I think it had less to do with my perceived health and more to do with how my weight reflected on him as a father. Who wants a chubby daughter?
08/31/09
On the one hand I think parents have a responsibility to make sure their kids are healthy, and if they know their kid is either over or underweight because of poor eating/exercise habits, then I guess it's good they speak up. My best friend in college was chubby/fat as a middle-schooler, and her dad made some comment about it and started jogging with her. Her dad is pretty awesome, and a really great guy, so his comments never struck me as anything but acceptable fatherly concern. However, when I think about it, 10 years later, my friend definitely has some body-image issues. Then again, so do I, and no one ever commented to me about weight.
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08/31/09
However, we also must consider the cultural context of the word. Being "fat" here versus elsewhere might have different consequences and levels of social acceptance. What Americans considered big butts are considered desirable by a lot of Latin/Hispanic cultures.
Any Japanese people care to weigh in on the connotations of the word and the acceptance of fatness in Japan?
08/31/09
08/31/09
The only big difference I can think of (other than sumo wrestling) is that fatness has also been associated with the downsides of Western influence in Japan and blaming the importation of fast food etc. Premodern Japanese beauties were called "willow waisted" and the ideal silhouette for the kimono is lean, clean lines.
08/31/09
You also have to consider that the author of this piece is a very self conscious foreigner, self described as a tall, long-legged exotic in a "land of (what some Japanese disparagingly call) big faces, small noses, boring black hair, little eyes and short legs." I don't want to take his ideas of body image at face value, period.
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