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Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!

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Justifan
06/06/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
anyways the idea that women are exploited by being paid so much for sex doesn't add up. i guess women are exploited when men buy them drinks and engagement rights. look at the divorce laws, clearly with the idea that women are entitled to half a mans wages/worth thats basically sex for money. it goes way beyond escorts, its pretty goddamned standard and thats what women don't want to admit. sure if you don't like it then you buy the drinks, buy your own engagement ring! that'll happen when hell freezes over. whats the real awful truth...women exploit men for money, thats what people don't want to admit.
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clevernamehere
06/07/09

@Justifan: I have a feeling that no one will see this, but I can't let such blatant bullshit go unchallenged.

1. When people say prostitution exploits women they are talking about how society commodifies women's bodies. It isn't the same thing as being bought a drink.

2. Getting half of the family earnings isn't men paying women for sex, it is men paying women for unpaid domestic labor. A woman who stayed home with the kids for 20 years and cooked dinner every night contributed to her husband's economic success by taking a lot of housework/childcare off his plate. That is the logic behind evenly dividing the assets.

3. I know women who have bought their own ring or (more often) used a family ring. It isn't that unheard of. I also know women who bought their fiancee a similar value item to celebrate the engagement.

Some women exploit men, just like some men exploit women but you're talking nonsense.
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clevernamehere
06/05/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
Occasionally there are posts on Jezebel that really make me feel hopeless about the male gender and after thinking it over, this is one of them.

I think this guy has issues, but really what bothers me is all the posts saying many/most guys visit sex workers at one point or another and if you ask them about it they'll lie because that's just what guys do. If they are honest about it, you should be super psyched because guys are expected to lie.

That's seriously depressing.
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blueberryblackberry
06/05/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
On this thread I see some comments that go off on how horrible men who patronize sex workers are, and then ask where the so called slut shaming is happening. The thing is, in making blanket statements that denigrate sex workers' clients, it implicitly denigrates some sex workers as well. Not all of us are trafficked, or abused, or on drugs, or one month's rent away from being homeless. Some of us screen and yes, CHOOSE which clients we accept, with great care. Some of us care about some of the men and women (yes, women) we see deeply. So when the men and women we choose to let into our lives are painted as monsters, or as emotional vacuums, it feels like a slap in the face.
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SarahMC
06/05/09

@blueberryblackberry: Here's the thing: It's not all about the sex workers and how men's patronage of sex workers affects them. Men's patronage of sex workers affects all women, as members of the sex class. Even if all sex workers were happy as clams, what about the rest of us, who are not happy as clams living within this rape culture?
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blueberryblackberry
06/05/09

@SarahMC: ball-cutting cybersuccubus:

I think that my opinion differs from yours in that I don't believe that sex work is inherently supportive of rape culture. Do you mind explaining to me how non-coerced sex work is supportive of rape culture? Or, if you've articulated your view on this before, point me to an explicating comment. Thanks.
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SarahMC
06/05/09

@blueberryblackberry: I think in a vacuum it would not be supportive of rape culture. But in a patriarchy, it is. It reinforces women's status as The Sex Class (TM). I think it reinforces the notion that men are the actors and women the subjects in this world, and our bodies merely objects on which they can project their prejudices and aggression.
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aureliajones
06/05/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
I'm disappointed by Jezebel's take on this. This guy is not a woman hater, but he obviously has been mistreated by women. Why is it that so many women on this site thing that men should put up with being stood up 27 times without having any deep emotional reaction to it. The "cue the violins" comment was uncalled for. This doesn't happen to women like it does men. I feel bad for this guy. I don't think he's pathetic. I do think prostitution is a helping profession. I'm so disappointed in the harsh one-sidedness of this post.
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clevernamehere
06/05/09

@aureliajones: We don't know he has been mistreated by women.

Getting stood up 27 times sucks majorly. But it isn't like he was raped or abused, which happens to women in much greater numbers than men.

I do feel sympathy towards guys when it comes to dating, but not this guy who was psyched to pay for sex rather than talk to less attractive women who might not fuck him.
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whynotshesaid
06/06/09

@aureliajones: The guy has been stood up 27 times. I don't think that's because he's met 27 women who have screwed him over. I'm going to guess it's because there is something deeply wrong with him that puts women off.

If all of your relationships suck, then odds are good that the problem lies with you.
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SarahMC
06/05/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
This essay also perpetuates the myth of the Sad, Lonely John.
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AuntieBee
06/05/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
Whee, I live in upsidedownland apparently.

I totally understand this dude. I do not doubt or judge his loneliness. Science has definitively proven that not being touched is really harmful to our emotional (and physical) health. And there is a lot of rejection out there, honestly. And some people are actually painfully shy; like, it causes pains to try to approach a stranger. I don't even doubt that he is a nice guy. I don't feel comfortable judging his statement about attractive women, either. Here's why:

I am painfully shy. I am a nice person, I think. People tell me I am, anyway, and with years of work on my subconscious, I am starting to believe it. I am not hideously ugly, I think. Again, people who think I'm a nice person tell me that I am not, and I try to believe it.

I hear girls talk a lot about how easy it is to get laid, how guys are trying to pick them up all the time. This is not the case with me. So here I am, a generally nice, and fairly attractive girl who hasn't had a boyfriend since she broke up with a fiance over two years ago, hasn't been laid (or kissed, goddammit) in way too long, and doesn't even know what to do about it. I guess, judging from the comments I am reading here, I should lower my standards (because I shouldn't feel "entitled" to a nice, handsome guy). And never let it get me down that the only people to touch my skin in forever are my niece and nephew (whom I love, but they are both under 4).

Le sigh.
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bess marvin, girl detective
06/05/09

@AuntieBee: i feel you as i too have crippling self-doubt issues and trouble around strangers. i'm glad that seeking out an escort isn't something i would ever think of. i think it's because i'm a woman and if i wanted to REALLY bad, i could go out and get sex
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clevernamehere
06/05/09

@AuntieBee: He was a stand up comedian. I really don't think he had crippling shyness issues. I would have felt a lot more sympathy for him if it had seemed like he was too shy to approach women, instead he talks about how he was tired of chatting up women and not getting laid.
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mustlovebooknerd
06/05/09

@clevernamehere: You'd be surprised. I'm a loud, out-spoken, hilarious (or at least I think so) guy who can work a room. I'm completely charming and people love me the minute they meet me. I have A LOT of friends and I'm not trying to be arrogant or immodest. Just trying to make a point. Because when it comes to dating and talking to guys, I'm also ridiculously shy. To the point where I practically freeze up at the idea of approaching a stranger and not being able to form coherent sentences when talking to someone. I'm the king of awkward silences and I've actually said things at times and not had any idea what they meant. So yeah...being a stand-up comedian has nothing to do with it.
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clevernamehere
06/05/09

@mustlovebooknerd: But this guy isn't any of those things. If he was freezing up or almost unable to talk to the opposite sex, he wouldn't have had so many women stand him up because he never would have gotten their number in the first place. He makes no mention of any kind of shyness, all he says is that he wasn't getting laid and his friends were all coupled up.
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HitOrMs will never get a gold star because she doesn't hate on sex workers
06/05/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
Christ, I hate these discussions on sex work. 90% of the most vocal posters have no idea what they're talking about, spew out either tired old stereotypes or a snippet from a paper they wrote in Women's Studies class.

As a former stripper and someone who is friends with several escorts, I'm glad the Jez editors were somewhat sensitive with this article and didn't jump to conclusions, but the comments (as they often do on this topic) make me sad because this is $lut $haming.
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bess marvin, girl detective
06/05/09

@HitOrMs: i agree. one of my movie ideas takes place within the sex industry. when i have money, i would love to meet with you and your friends so i can get a better understanding of the world.
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bess marvin, girl detective
06/05/09

@HitOrMs: but slut shaming? i don't see anyone here calling out the women for their work, but rather the men who seek it out.
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Plum-Pie
06/05/09

@HitOrMs will never get a gold star because she doesn't hate...: It's not 'slut-shaming' if I'm horrified that the murder rate for sex workers is 17 times higher than for the age-matched general female population.

(See here for links: [ukpmc.ac.uk])
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Glitterbug (likes life shaken, not stirred)
06/05/09

@HitOrMs will never get a gold star because she doesn't hate...: As one of those you seem to have accused of "hating" on sex workers, I'd just like to clarify: I have nothing against sex workers at all, but it is an unregulated industry in which some women suffer slavery and abuse. My problem is not with sex workers, but with the men who seek them out.
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veronykah
06/05/09

@Plum-Pie: Is that statistic based on sex workers operating on an illegal level on the street or legal sex workers?

Of course if you are operating in the black market, your safety in any area is compromised.

I'm sure male drug dealers have a much higher murder rate than age matched male pharmacists. If you are a sex worker, working on your own you are doing a very dangerous job.

If you are a sex worker in porn or working at the Bunny Ranch I'd like to see how much higher the murder rate is comparatively.
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veronykah
06/05/09

@HitOrMs will never get a gold star because she doesn't hate...: I definitely agree with your first paragraph. As a former pro-domme, a whole different area of sex work...yet strangely the same, conversations like these always seem to turn to the fact that its always a misogynistic pursuit to be in any sort of sex work and any women involved somehow on some level doesn't want to be doing it and needs to be saved.

I also find it hard to listen to people talk about it who have no experience with sex work beyond reading about it.

Sure there are people who are trafficked, who have no choice and for whom it is ruining their lives.

But there are also people who do it because they want to, maybe they LIKE it and maybe it isn't such a big deal to them.

I have no shame for what I've done and given the opportunity to go back, I'd do it again.
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Quecchua (Subversive Unschooling Witch in Toronto)
06/05/09

@HitOrMs will never get a gold star because she doesn't hate...: I find a lot of women in Jezebel incredibly anti-sex. It shouldn't surprise me but hell...I expect feminist to be sex-affirming. I don't know why....I guess my feminist friends are all sex-worker positive.
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Plum-Pie
06/05/09

@veronykah: It's based on a 30 year study of prostitutes in Colorado. ([aje.oxfordjournals.org])
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whynotshesaid
06/06/09

@Quecchua (Subversive Unschooling Witch in Toronto): If you think Jezebel posters are anti-sex, then I am curious to know what your definition of pro-sex is.
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Nighthawk (the former Okori Wadsworth) is headed back to DGUSA in November!
06/05/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
As someone who has their own history of shyness and crippling self-doubt I understand why he went to a sex worker. not that i would do it, but i understand it.

but the point of his thesis, which appears to be that the only way to get that confidence was through no-strings sex, is a little ridiculous. Do you know how i got where i am now, where i can have this conversation without crushing into a puddle of tears and hatred? I met someone who understood me for me, who loved me for me. I never had to hide emotions from her, or anything for that matter. Finding someone like that, someone open, is the key. Dating a girl (or a guy) who just shuts you down never helps, and can make you feel worse.
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quickbird
06/05/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
"asically, what's at war here are what he thinks he should think about the women, and his own self-interest. Is he sorry he - maybe - exploited women and promoted an industry he finds problematic? Nah, it was worth it!" WHAT? That's really what you think he's saying? Don't you think the situation is more (much more) complex than that? He's only recognizing that though he participated in an industry that, more often than not, destroys and enslaves its defining workers, he had his reasons and those reasons were real. Moreover, if any of us were to write an essay about our seediest sexual exploits, there would be shame mixed with the recognition of the why, what for, and--hopefully--lessons gained. If he says these women gave him--whether out of "compassion" as he wanted to believe or out of obligation as he now sees--the ability to move on from his shyness and distrust, that is a good thing. As with most things in life, this is not black and white. Prostitution is the oldest profession, it's most likely not going away. If more johns took his attitude, we'd be in a better position to do something about the industry to support the escorts while still providing johns with a service that is, obviously, needed in some way. When you say that the illusion "allow[s] them to misrepresent their own actions, and, more to the point, effect[s] the way they view real-life relationships" isn't this as much the escort's "fault" as his? I mean, doesn't a really good escort--I know I'm being reductionist myself here--want to maintain that illusion. If he bought the fantasy hook line and sinker, he is, in part, to blame, but I think he sees that and is brave enough to write about it. At the same time, this is a field where women are trained and driven to exact these behaviors.
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SarahMC
06/05/09

@quickbird: "He's only recognizing that though he participated in an industry that, more often than not, destroys and enslaves its defining workers, he had his reasons and those reasons were real."

Well as long as he has his reasons...

:barfs:
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thegogglesdonothing
06/05/09

@quickbird: I think there's an interesting tension in general between the desire for people in positions of societal privilege to reflect upon said privilege and the outraged reaction that seems to inevitably follow from some circles when somebody ACTUALLY does so.
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SarahMC
06/05/09

@thegogglesdonothing: Where does this guy recognize his privilege? I don't see it.
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thegogglesdonothing
06/05/09

@SarahMC: ball-cutting cybersuccubus: The whole part where he realizes he's perpetuating an institution that he's not comfortable with and chooses to stop doing so?
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SarahMC
06/05/09

@thegogglesdonothing: That's not a recognition of privilege, though.
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SarahMC
06/05/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
I love that sex workers are like literary devices in this guy's novel: How I Became a Better Man. Women are just plot points.
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andBegorrah
06/05/09

@SarahMC: ball-cutting cybersuccubus: Women are literary devices. I'm stealing that. And using you as a metonym in the subsequent blog post, fyi.
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bluebears
06/05/09

@SarahMC: ball-cutting cybersuccubus: so telling, isn't it?
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Casquivana
06/05/09

@SarahMC: ball-cutting cybersuccubus: The best part is that that he SUDDENLY discovers that it wasn't all about him, but about paying the bills. And then he has a revelation!
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SarahMC
06/05/09

@Casquivana: That's the part that shot my eyeballs way back into my head.
I am so damn sick of reading about men and their half-revalations that women are people.
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bluebears
06/05/09

@SarahMC: ball-cutting cybersuccubus:

"I am so damn sick of reading about men and their half-revalations that women are people."

YES. seriously I have had enough.
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bess marvin, girl detective
06/05/09

@SarahMC: ball-cutting cybersuccubus: have you ever used someone in a situation and then reflected back on it in shame? truth, people mistreat and abuse other people and that behavior is not exclusive to men who use escorts. every mistake you've made that has cost someone else makes them a stepping stone to making you a better person. i don't really get the hate here.
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heykoukla
06/05/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
I can't believe that a guy who was Countdown champion had a problem finding dates. What is wrong with women?
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Plum-Pie
06/05/09

@heykoukla: Is that a thesaurus in your pocket?
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heykoukla
06/05/09

@Plum-Pie: Come up and see my conundrums sometime.
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msAnthrope
06/05/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
i think the effect sex work can have on real-life relationships exists for both sides of the equation~~ the escort and the one buying the services. i agree that bodle's sense of entitlement is probably typical of lots of men who use escorts. but i'll bet that there are plenty of escorts who now look at every man as merely certain buttons to be pressed as a means to an end. compartmentalizing sex work is probably a skill that eludes a sizable number of johns and escorts when it comes to establishing and maintaining their real-life relationships.
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bess marvin, girl detective
06/05/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
i hate that movie with the fire of a thousand suns
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bluebears
06/05/09

@bess marvin, girl detective: ugh. same.
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ShowOrTell
06/05/09

@bess marvin, girl detective: I've always been very confused about that movie - how do so many people not find it disturbing? Wikipedia says it started out as a dark expose on prostitution in Los Angeles. And then some glittery alchemy happened, apparently, and it became a bright chirpy rom-com about call girls who floss.
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bess marvin, girl detective
06/05/09

@ShowOrTell: to be honest, when i first saw it, when i was 11 or 12, it washed off my back. but now, more educated and just older, i'm like "What.The.Fuck?" As an aspiring screenwriter, I love and LOATHE my industry.

@HitOrMs: seriously. inflation isn't even a viable excuse.
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kithkin
06/05/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
Take that telling admission that now he can have "more attractive" women with less effort - do we really think this superficiality and entitlement won't carry over into a normal dating life? To say nothing of "relationships" - which he admits he considers them - centered around pleasing him, fulfilling him, demanding nothing?

If any dude feels that he deserves "attractive women" simply by virtue of his own awesomeness, whether that be because he bought her flowers or just is the newest Don Juan or has a great job, then that dude hasn't come very far, as far as I'm concerned. He may no longer pay for sex, but now that he's certain he's morally superior to dudes who do (rather than just thinking he was before he started paying for sex), I have the suspicion that this sense of entitlement will only get worse. Because now he's a Nice Guy.
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greengrey
06/05/09

@kithkin: Ughhh, I can't stand the nice guy entitlement. I mean, wow, you hold doors open, so now you want a shower of naked supermodels? If you have standards that high, and that much entitlement, newsflash, you're not a "nice guy".
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SarahMC
06/05/09

@kithkin: Ohhhh dear god, you're right. Now he's a motherfucking Nice Guy. Ugghhhh. Sorry, not very coherent, but this piece made me want to puke.
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kithkin
06/05/09

@greengrey: But he realized that having sex with prostitutes is only perpetuating the idea that women are objects for sexual consumption and the most important thing in all of dude-dom is to, like, fuck bitches, and in so doing was furthering rape culture and is degrading and wrong and bad bad bad bad.

Or some of that, anyway.

So now he is ENLIGHTENED! And DESERVES a wide menu of women for sexual consumption because the most important thing in all of dude-dom is to, like, fuck bitches. HOT ones.
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thegogglesdonothing
06/05/09

@kithkin: Did he actually say anywhere in the piece indicating that he feels entitled to women because of his reversal of opinion regarding prositution? Or is this just a projection based on the idea that any man who goes to a prostitute or prostitutes is ipso facto a raging mysogynist deserving of scorn?
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AuntieBee
06/05/09

@kithkin: Do you ever feel that you deserve to be with someone you find attractive? Or are you SO awesome that you honestly do not see physical appearance whatsoever? I am not that awesome. Kudos to you, though, if you are.
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clevernamehere
06/05/09

@thegogglesdonothing: @AuntieBee: @amowls: Everyone deserves someone they find attractive, but he expresses a little pride in the fact that in paying for sex he could sleep with a hotter woman without having to make any effort. That's a little entitled.

He also chalks up his later dating success to the fact that he'd gained confidence from the sex workers, even though he felt many of them weren't choosing to sleep with him.
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kithkin
06/05/09

@thegogglesdonothing: Nope, it's a sense based on the idea that men who revel in their own enlightenedness are generally misogynists and that people who say things like

"All told, in the Nineties, I've worked out that I was stood up on 27 different occasions.

I couldn't for the life of me figure out what was going on. I wasn't a horrific-looking chap."

are often jerks.
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kithkin
06/05/09

@AuntieBee: Nope, I just like being with my husband because we're in love, and we fell in love before discovering what the other looked like. Ah, Internet.
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Penny
06/05/09

In reply to Escort-Addict More Interesting, Less Nauseating Than Expected!
This is a sensitive subject and I am pretty reluctant to share this on Jezebel, but my boyfriend has had sex with a prostitute. No, I didn't blow it off, and it took me a long time to come to terms with. But, like anything else, you'd be surprised what you can reconcile. Yes, I know many women would (and might) tell me "ugh, I would never." Which is fine.

So, there is my confession for 2010.
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Penny
06/05/09

@Penny: I should add, he wasn't with me, or anyone, at the time. So it wasn't an incident of cheating.
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Flackette Goes Retro
06/05/09

@Penny: I have no idea how I would react to that, especially if it were just something in his past and not something that happened while with me. I mean, my first instinct would be "GAH!" but then...I don't know.
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AthertonMerriweather
06/05/09

@Penny: I have a very good male friend that was paying for sex during a time when he was very depressed. I couldn't believe it when he told me, but I don't judge him for it. He felt very unloved and lonely at the time and it was a way for him to have human contact.
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thePrototype
06/05/09

@Penny: well I for one do not see how that is a reflection on you! IMO people's pasts are just that, pasts. I think it speaks volumes on the quality of your relationship that he was able to communicate with you about that!
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bluebears
06/05/09

@Penny: wow. I do not know how I'd react to that but honestly I think it says a lot about the strength of your relationship that he would even be so honest with you about it.
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Penny
06/05/09

@Penny: 2009, rather. Working on a 2010 project so I am in that mindset. Obviously I was more nervous sharing that than I thought.
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descent
06/05/09

@Penny: That's awesome that you have the type of relationship where he can share that.

My boyfriend's last relationship before me was with woman who worked as a stripper. He REFUSES to discuss it because he says it's embarrassing because they had nothing in common and it was clearly just a physical thing. I, of course, want to know more.
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Glitterbug (likes life shaken, not stirred)
06/05/09

@Penny: My boyfriend has (like you, not when we were together but back when we were very close friends), and while it's not something I'll ever be OK with, it's something that I've had to work past with him. I don't see him as quite the same, but it was during a difficult time in his life and he genuinely regrets it now - I love him to pieces, flaws and all! I'm sorry you had to work through that with your boyfriend, but I'm glad you could work it out. People do make mistakes!
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margareita metermaid
06/05/09

@Penny: A lot of guys have. I even know someone who I respect that paid for a prostitute in southeast Asia, which I consider probably the worst place to do that. It's not an action that makes someone a terrible person. Just a naive and/or apathetic person, which all humans are guilty of at some time or another. (Granted, there are degrees of being ignorant and/or willfully ignoring the harm in one's actions) THe real question is whether he realized what he did and it's implications (good or bad) and what he learned from the experience.
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morninggloria
06/05/09

@Penny: It wouldn't surprise me if Boyfriend has. How did it come up in discussion?
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Penny
06/05/09

@thePrototype: @bluebears: @descent: I'll give him one thing, he never lies. Ever. I don't even remember how it came up, but I casually asked, "well have you ever?" certainly not expecting him to say yes.

To be perfectly honest, it still bothers me a little and I can't IMAGINE what his mother would think. But, fuck, I'm nowhere near perfect either.
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Penny
06/05/09

@morninggloria: I can't remember, but I asked, and it was via email. I couldn't talk to him for the remainder of the day and I had a few questions for him when I got home. Then I told him straight up how I felt.
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Plum-Pie
06/05/09

@Penny: I only (sortof) know UK stats but something like 1 in 5 UK men have had sex with a prostitute and the average number of male sexual partners for a straight UK woman is 7. Not something one 'wants' to think about but we (women) are fooling ourselves (and marginalising sex workers even further) if we think this is something which affects 'other people' far away.
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bluebears
06/05/09

@Penny: that's what I always go back to. no one is perfect. Last Feb my BF went into my email and read a couple emails from a guy friend of mine. everyone makes mistakes. My BF never lies either and it can be startling. He totally admitted it to me 2 days later (he felt awful), I had no idea. It still bothers me and I think a little differently about him but I've done shitty things too, you know? I'm not exactly a sterling model of mental health 100% of the time and have my paranoid days. again, no one is perfect.
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thePrototype
06/05/09

@bowleserised: Some people are able to separate emotion from sexuality and just enjoy the physical act, and as you point out, some people prefer to partake in the act without the worry of the other partner developing emotions.

IMO the problem with the sextrade industry is that it is not legal and therefore not regulated and as a result the large majority of sexworkers are abused. I am personally for legalization and regulation. Sure that won't cure everything, or stop all abuse, but it will make is safer for some of the sexworkers, which, IMO, is better than nothing.
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daisen-in
06/05/09

@Penny: My most recent ex also paid for oral sex from a prostitute- also not while he was with me, or anyone else (I should specify too- we broke up long after I found out, and not for any reason related to this). I was really disquieted; I still don't know that I ever came to terms with it.
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HitOrMs will never get a gold star because she doesn't hate on sex workers
06/05/09

@Pnny: s ths srcsm? Bcs dn't knw why y'd tmtclly b mkng bg dl f h slpt wth prsttt nc. f h dd t chtng n y, tht's nthr stry.

Bt f h sd cndm nd t wsn't chtng, hw s ths "DRTY H PSSY" ny dffrnt frm nthr h's stck hs dck n? Hw s t dffrnt frm yrs? Bcs y'v nvr chrgd? Tht tmtclly mks t ncr nd bttr?
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bluebears
06/05/09

@HitOrMs: omg. what is wrong with you?
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Penny
06/05/09

@HitOrMs: Please don't jump to conclusions about what I think about prostitutes.

I don't know why I feel the need to explain, but yes, actually, I have been paid for sex (not with money, but with drugs, but that's beside the point). Even if I hadn't had those experiences, why are you automatically assuming I am some kind of hater of prostitutes?
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bess marvin, girl detective
06/05/09

@Penny: funny thing is, i think i remember how it came up. there was another thread about prostitution and you mentioned that you were scared to ask your boyfriend if he ever slept with one. and then later, you came out and said that he admitted it.

no, i'm not stalking you. but i may be reading your dream journal.
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ChildBride
06/05/09

@HitOrMs: I don't know if it worth engaging with you, but Penny clearly wasn't feeling that her boyfriend was "sullied" by having slept with a prostitute. It's pretty clear from her postings that she's a feminist and a thoughtful woman, and the idea that a man she loves participated in a transaction that by its very nature makes a woman an object to be sold, and which is moreover illegal, shocked and upset her.
Penny also wasn't slut-shaming the sex worker involved, and wasn't saying she herself is better than the sex worker. You jumped to a lot of conclusions there.
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HitOrMs will never get a gold star because she doesn't hate on sex workers
06/05/09

@blbrs: Why d y sy tht? Bcs dn't lk dwn n prsttts lk s mny thrs hr d?

clrly pstd tht f h wsn't chtng n hr wth th prsttt thr shldn't b hstrncs. Wht's wrng wth Y? Lck f rdng cmprhnsn?
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SarahMC
06/05/09

@HitOrMs: Why are you jumping to the conclusion that any objection to prostitution is a judgement of the seller, rather than the BUYER?
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bluebears
06/05/09

@HitOrMs: I was referring to your INCREDIBLY nasty tone.
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HitOrMs will never get a gold star because she doesn't hate on sex workers
06/05/09

@bluebears: I'm prone to hyperbolic statements at times. I'll try to be more gentle...
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Penny
06/05/09

@HitOrMs: You know what's funny? I remember your contributions to other prostitution threads, and if you remembered mine, you would know that I do not look down on prostitutes in the least but, please, let's not act like the industry is without it faults. Basically, what ChildBride said.
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Penny
06/05/09

@ChildBride: Thank you, by the way, for summing up what I'm having a lot of trouble articulating right now.
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Scout
06/05/09

@Penny: I was in the same boat back in 1998. Met a guy (Toronto), moved to live with him and found out he had sex, several times, with prostitutes.

While he did divulge that he was manic-depressive and on lithium, the stories that I found out about AFTER moving in with him were shocking.

I left him, though because while I could deal with his mental illness (lithium worked wonders) I could not reconcile with the prostitute issue. That said, many years in retrospect, I know that it was his illness which made him go to prostitutes so I was probably too harsh.
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Scout
06/05/09

@thePrototype: "Some people are able to separate emotion from sexuality and just enjoy the physical act"

so THAT explains why my husband went home with a gay man back in 2002 and let the guy suck him off and fucked him in the ass. I'll stop worrying about that now.

half sarcastic/half not...it got issues :)

Seriously, though, I do think that quite a few people do engage in sexual acts without there being any real emotion or "labeling" involved.

I'm not that way but, to each their own.
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Penny
06/05/09

@HitOrMs: The more I have stewed on this and read some of your other comments on this thread, the angrier I've gotten. It's lovely that your escort friends are paid thousands of dollars for a dinner date, but you do realize that most prostitutes are not so lucky, right? You do realize that not all women (or girls) are empowered to make the decision to enter the profession willingly, don't you? Not to mention the number of prostitutes who deal with drug problems and abuse.

Prostitution does not only exist in YOUR vacuum. I'm totally irritated that you're jumping to the conclusion that I and other commenters are anti-prostitution.

Yes, slut shaming does exist on this site, and you know what? I am usually one the first to shut it down. So get over yourself.
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vixenatrix
06/05/09

@Penny: Not all but plenty of men experiment w/paying for sex at some point. It is typically something they never admit to women b/c of the firestorm of judgment it can provoke.

I think there is a big difference between a guy who tries it out once or twice when single and a man who makes a regular thing of it, or repeatedly seeks out relationships w/sex workers... kind of like there's a big difference between having a couple of one night stands, vs. never being able to have sex w/the same partner twice.
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clevernamehere
06/05/09

@vixenatrix: I'm pretty anti-prostitution, but I don't think a few visits to a sex worker far in the past would be a deal breaker for me. People make mistakes, people try things and then realize it isn't for them. It would really depend on how he say it. Habitually visiting sex workers like the guy in the article would be a total deal breaker though.

But lying about it would be a complete and total deal breaker. This is one of the things that frustrates me so much about (some) guys, the idea that its okay to lie about something because you don't want to deal with what the woman in your life thinks. That's not going to get you a happy relationship.
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HistoricUpstart
06/05/09

@Penny: This was very well said. Thank you so much for bringing up these points!!
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Quecchua (Subversive Unschooling Witch in Toronto)
06/05/09

@Penny: You are saying that he didn't cheat on you...and this could be an issue? Who cares if he paid for sex....most guy will or will want to during their lifetime? I still don't know what the big deal is. I pay for pedicures, and haircoloring, why not pay for an orgasm here or there? Satisfaction guaranteed and then they get to go away.
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Penny
06/05/09

@Quecchua (Subversive Unschooling Witch in Toronto): Er, no. Not the same.
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