Jezebel 
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New York, 2:24 PM
Sat Nov 28
29 posts in the last 24 hours
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09/19/09
Does the inanity of blaming women's insecurity on society and of vilifying men for finding hot young girls, uh, hot, sink in when you look at it that way?
09/19/09
09/19/09
I really have no problem with objectification or the Lolita fetish (In fact, I've only recently become comfortable with the fact that I do look very young and hey, why shouldn't I enjoy that?), but I do have a problem with society's fetishization (Sp?) of youth, virginity, and "innocence" all at once - it sends a confusing message to everyone.
And DUH, of course kids can't identify with older people - they're KIDS. When I was 18 I knew a hell of lot more than I do now (And well, maybe I was right) and the "old people" never "got it." Reaching a little, I think.
09/19/09
09/19/09
I developed one of the most hyper sezualized traits in our culture as a young girl, at about 13. Really big boobs. The rest of my body was still rather child like and I was extremely childish myself (I still liked to play with Barbies, what can I say?), and found it very hard to deal with my new found and undesired attention. Seriously, the things I heard every single day were like nothing I hear now at age 20, men on the street telling me, a child, they wanted to suck my breasts and things of the like. I hated it with all my heart, I hated myself, I hated men. I walked with my head down and slouching. Then I fought back, I lost my temper and yelled at them on the street as soon as they said something. Then I went through the usual stages of the teenage years, only more cynical (still am, really), and often angry. I never got to be silly and boy crazy and I truly do blame these men's harassment for it. I'm over it now, but it's left its mark on me, and it seems to be getting worse for girls now.
I know some young girls seem to like the attention, but as older men you have to know it's just a game for them, they're testing boundaries, seeing what they can do, trying to develop a sexual identity, but developing a very strong sexual identity at a young age can prevent them developing a true identity outside their sexual selves. No girl should proudly identify herself as an object.
(Also I'm new here so hello everyone!)
09/18/09
I've noticed that the successful or fulfilled guys my age seem to connect with women our age. It's the guys who feel unaccomplished who seem to seek out very young women, and that speaks volumes to me.
Because honestly, to be a little cruel here, I've seen way more men go downhill looks-wise as early as their late 20's, whereas many women stay young-looking and conventionally pretty for a long time. I just turned 42 and I beat college boys off with a stick. I don't know any men my age who are being pursued by college girls. None. The whole "changed a 40 in for 2 20's ha ha" is just a myth men like to scare their wives with.
09/18/09
That isn't true and it has never been true. 40 year old men are not routinely getting with 20 years. Yes, it happens, but it is a rarity. Dating at every age has its own challenges for both genders.
It really bothers me to see Jez posters in this thread reinforce the stereotype that male aging has no effect on their dating prospects.
09/18/09
I also find it funny that so many people here are criticising men's sexuality, which values youth in women. You wouldn't criticise a homosexual for not finding the opposite gender attractive, etc. But men's sexuality is apparently open for attack.
I don't look at an 18 year old and think, 'gee, I bet she's dumb and easy to control'. I think, 'Holy damn she is gorgeous.' Why does this effect fade with age? Why don't I or my friends find women in their thirties and forties as attractive? I don't know, honestly, but how can you criticise something we don't control?
Obviously, I'd prefer to date someone in my age range, because the mental connection in a relationship is what really matters. But to pretend men haven't always lusted after youth, or that it's somehow wrong, is ... well, wrong.
I feel that as women don't value youth in men they feel it must be intentional on men's part to chase younger women, in order to hurt older women, and, as the article describes, drive the generations apart. It's just not the case. When I'm 50 I know I'll still be blown away by college girls in summer gear. It's just the way it is.
09/18/09
I think you have missed the point of the post. You do not find women in the their thirties and forties attractive, not because you are biologically hardwired to do so, but because you have been socially conditioned to associate beauty with youth. The article is mentioning the ways in which that social conditioning is harmful to women, both young and old. If you are unfamiliar with social conditioning or social constructs, I would recommend doing a little research on those subjects because it will really open your mind to see the ways in which things you take for granted or assume to be innate, are actually attitudes inherited through your culture.
And you're argument that we don't criticize homosexuals for being attracted to men is a complete strawman because sexual orientation is not socially conditioned.
09/18/09
I also think chalking this up to anything other than conditioning in dangerous. With the advances in medicine, nutrition, sunscreen and even housing, today's 32 year old probably looks a lot like 200 BCE's 19 year old. But we fetishize female inexperience as much as youthful litheness.
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09/19/09
09/19/09
How old are you?
I ask because, when I was 18, I couldn't imagine finding a man in his 40s attractive.
Now I am about to turn 30, and the men I find most attractive are in their 30s, 40s and 50s. My husband, who is the most attractive man I know, is about to turn 48.
But men who are 18, 19, 20? All look like little boys to me. Do not want.
Where you are in life has a lot to do with it.
09/19/09
Its so strange that you'd feel sorry for a kid with attentive, caring, parents, rather than ones who have distant, uninvolved parents.
09/18/09
That aside, this is one of the biggest reasons I can think of that being a woman is so difficult. Think about it. We're brought up by the world to value a man's opinion. We're taught to place enormous value in our appearances, and if we fall short of the ideal, we're made to feel worthless. We're taught to accept catcalls and comments about our bodies-from strangers, even-as compliments. We absorb the world's edict that we are not ourselves; we are Women. A pretty surface onto which the world's expectations and desires are projected. This starts so early in our lives; it's so sudden and impossible to prepare yourself for. And eventually, you notice that your older peers-who once stood exactly where you are standing-sometimes can't conceal their dislike or distrust for you. They look at you suspiciously, as though the purpose of your existence is to undermine their own. This is NOT a broad indictment of all women. At all. But I'm sure many of you have experienced this very thing at the hands of, say, a coworker, or a mother-in-law, or a boss. In my eyes, being a woman is a struggle that never ends. It just changes shape. The weapons get sharper, the enemy starts to look more and more familiar as we grow into adults. Now, at twenty-seven, I'm no longer worried about men. I share my life with a good one, and that's where my focus is. So no, men and their opinions don't hold nearly as much power as they used to. No. It's the women I worry about now. The attractive older woman who fawns all over my SO, right in front of me. The women I worked with in a doctor's office, who were all older than me by a decade, who shunned me and ignored me and treated me like shit because I was only twenty (and probably a little hussy) and made me so miserable I eventually quit. The woman who eyed me up and down and then told me my outfit was....."fun". All of these little tiny things that women can do to one another to cut eachother down, that each and every one of us has experienced-or committed- at one time or another, know no age, it seems. I hope that if I ever have a daughter, I'll be able to somehow prepare her for this, and let her know that her strength will often be tested, and that she should never forget what she's really worth. I hope, too, that she'll understand, and that she won't let anyone-male or female- make her feel small or powerless or like she's only her body and nothing else. This is a long shot, I know. But I have to hope these things, or I'll feel as though all of my own little sufferings, and the strength they've fostered, will be in vain.
09/18/09
Both realities piss me off, big time.
09/18/09
I wish someone would have told me that women find younger men attractive too. It would have made a moment I had, ordering coffee from a college freshman boy a lot less awkward and not feel like that much of a creep.
09/18/09
09/18/09
Women spoil like milk as they age, but men get to grow older like a fine wine. Its utter rubbish.
09/18/09
My high school musical had a rather buff 17 year old shirtless at one point and the entire female half of the audience gasped. Many older women commented to me later how attractive the actor was in a way that made it clear they felt shouldn't have noticed.
09/18/09
I personally don't think a lot women do either but that is another conversation.
It completely weirded me out the first time I was on the subway and saw a VERY cute guy and realized he was probably in high school.
It still annoys me that I seem to find men in their early 20s very attractive, while being in my early 30s I would NEVER date one.
I don't think it weirded me out so much for the guy being younger, I just never realized i wouldn't be attracted to people who weren't around my age...
09/18/09
09/18/09
09/18/09
It's hardwired in men to look for someone who looks ready to have babies. That's not really their fault.
BUT I cannot agree with ads like this:
[www.thedailybeast.com]
This girl isn't even 18. She might think and act like a 30 year old, but it's just too young to label yourself as a sex object.
09/18/09
I'd rather ask this, because it's been nagging at me: if the drive to be with young, fertile-looking women is biological, what on earth is the biological imperative/advangtage behind a 60-year-old man having a sexual relationship with a 20-year-old woman? I'm not saying that such a relationship couldn't be mutually fulfilling, but if we're going to keep dipping into the evolutionary biology well, this argument simply doesn't have legs. Specifically, if we're going to talk about cave men (as evolutionary biology so often does), I seriously doubt that it was productive from an evolutionary standpoint for one of the oldest men in any given community to have offspring with a young, healthy member of any given community. In fact, we have plenty of evidence that such a pairing would be counter-productive (the male would no longer be able to provide for the young family, and would likely die before the children had been successfully raised, leaving the young famly extremely vulnerable. We also now have proof that the quality of sperm degenerates as men age, just as does the quality of women's eggs).
I don't buy into evolutionary biology as a means of explaining or rationalizing (often hideous) modern behavior, but if society is dead-set on going that road, I really wish they'd see the flaw in this argument.
09/18/09
If you are just looking at who a woman should look to for sperm/fathering, a significantly older man makes no sense.
-He's less likely to be fertile. Male fertility doesn't fall off a cliff but it does drop significantly.
-He's more likely to produce a child with genetic problems. In the last few years Down's, autism, and dwarfism have all been linked to older fathers.
-He's physically weaker. If you need someone to kill a deer with his bare hands so your kids can eat, a 20 year old is your best bet.
-He's less likely to see his kids into adulthood.
09/18/09
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09/18/09
do you mean he had a problem with it? Because that's not a complex, that's a healthy fear of prison
09/18/09
09/18/09
09/18/09
unfortunately for her, this kind of talk only made this young woman even more unattractive to my husband.
09/18/09
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09/18/09
Perhaps one of the most important things my father has ever said to me was (when I was about 16): "At your age, I thought I knew everything, too."
09/18/09
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09/18/09
Also, I remember when I was 14 thinking that I would never be able to think someone over 20 was attractive. Then when I hit 25 I realized people UNDER 20 didn't attract me anymore. So it changes. That is why I have had a consistent love of Jason Bateman- he ages right along with me!
09/18/09
I don't know a lot of people for whom casual sex with a large age disparity is common, even though I do see flirtations and friendships between these acquaintances.
But perhaps I'm an optimist, and much of the popularity of "loli" attraction isn't a construct of Madison Ave....
09/18/09
Can you tell that to all the people who are convinced that somehow a magical switch will flip and I will want a baby in my 30s?
09/18/09
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09/18/09
09/18/09
I'm a one piece/tankini fan.
09/18/09
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09/18/09
09/18/09
THANK YOU! You explained exactly what I was trying to convey, but more succinctly.
09/18/09
09/18/09
@SarahMC: I just don't see how this is in any way sexual. It's just adorable. On an adult woman it would look ridiculous, not hot
09/18/09
09/18/09
It may be a function of that particular milieu to some extent, but it seems to me that most people unconsciously think that a female child, who in actuality looks the same as a male child from the waist up, has "breasts" and that those "breasts" are taboo in public.
09/18/09
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09/18/09
And also, one pieces seriously suck when you have to pee.
09/18/09
09/18/09
Nobody is saying bikinis are to blame for child abuse. In fact, nobody even mentioned child abuse. Parents and swimsuit manufacturers are sexualizing little girls when they put them in two-pieces.
09/18/09
As for the conservative argument that certain apparel invites misconduct, or that the victim is to blame: Well, that argument has far too many flaws and ludicrous undertones for me to get into and it certainly does not reflect my views on violence against women (or anyone, really). My views are not in any capacity conservative and I think it takes a huge leap of imagination to conflate my distaste for turning small girls into Lolita-types with victim-blaming. (I don't mean that to sound harsh, though I suppose when typed out, as opposed to spoken, it may come across that way).
But yeah, one pieces are a pain if you need to pee, but they aren't that bad. And besides, the alternative is to go without a top, which is fine as well.
09/18/09
PS I wasn't accusing you of saying that bikinis make girls hot, just that if you made that one larger and put it on an adult they'd look pretty damn silly, not sexy, so I don't see it as sexualizing to put it on a child. Maybe if it was sequined leather or something
09/18/09
Of course little kids' suits are going to have a different design than grown women's suits.
09/18/09
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09/18/09
I dislike the ones that are mimicking adult swimsuits, because it does seem more sexual, but I can totally understand how difficult it would be for a young kid to wrestle themselves in and out of a one-piece (as an adult I still have trouble with it sometimes).
I have zero issue with girls just wearing suit bottoms, but I think all kids should be somewhat covered just for sun protection.
09/18/09
09/19/09
There is no winning.