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Bunny Themelis
04/28/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
""The Modern Pinup" seems, in its postmodern obliviousness, to take what it wanted of the era and conveniently forget the rest."

And this is a problem, because...?

Jezebel, always focusing on what they can complain about. It seems that the brand of feminism touted here is NOT okay with women doing whatever they want, but here to supply yet another snark-tinged set of ideals by which to judge one's own and others lives.

Just because a certain aesthetic appeals to people doesn't mean they are completely ignorant of history.
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HuckleberryFriend
04/28/09

@Bunny Themelis: Feminism is not about everyone doing whatever the fuck they want. I suggest you read some of the well-thought out comments in this thread before making such an ignorant statement.
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nacho_supreme
04/28/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
I totally agree with LacyBones. Jesus, Jezebels.

'"The Modern Pinup" seems, in its postmodern obliviousness, to take what it wanted of the era and conveniently forget the rest.'

THAT'S THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT!

Romanticizing the past for fun isn't a crime against feminism.

Sorry to say it, but I'm finding Jezebel content growing less and less poignant/relevant by the day. It's bordering on blather and I'm starting to get pissed. Not to mention bored.

Step it up a notch ladies. We're not brain dead and we're not lady haters. Stop talking to us like you're our pretentious freshman Womyn Studies tutor.
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HuckleberryFriend
04/28/09

@nacho_supreme: Wow. I know I'm not brain-dead or lady-hating, thanks. I will continue to use my brain to be critical of trends relevant to my gender, if that's ok with you.
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Fatwetdog
04/28/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
There's a fair amount of tension between women who dress like that. I love the clothes, and the hair. I love the rockabilly aesthetic, and the fully modern, educated young feminists covered in tattoos with prim dresses and rolled hair. I don't have the ink, but I love old clothes. If someone mistakes me for a "proper old-fashioned lady," I hope they give me the opportunity to set them straight.

I spent some time on a forum for vintage clothes. But after awhile I found that forum almost at war with itself. Half the population was young feminists like me, who just liked the way the old clothes looked. The other half was women who genuinely idolized Caitlyn Flanagan, and men who said "No self-respecting man would marry a woman who made more than he did, because it would emasculate him." (I said, "Wow, you're pretty easily emasculated.") Another man said women shouldn't wear pants, because women should look like women.

It was rage-inducing. I tried to stand up for myself and the rest of us and argue with them, but it got really exhausting. Occasionally I'd get PMs from other women who were as sick of the gender profiling as I was. Finally I just stopped participating. I have library books that can tell me how to dress. I just couldn't deal anymore with the matrons and the sour old men.
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Diziet_Sma
04/28/09

@Fatwetdog: But that tells me that this kind of dressing just encourages the unreconstructed assholes of the world to remain unreconstructed.

Hell, I could have done with this tidbit of info over on the Dita Von Teese thread on Saturday! You just confirmed my suspicions.
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hippichx sez PEACE PLEASE
04/27/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
that sort of look has always struck me as a female empowerment symbol... and i don't mean empowered to bake cupcakes. meanwhile, spending that much time on my appearance would be the antithesis of my brand of feminism. uncomfy shoes, clothes, serving the man in my life... no thank you. but... to each their own. this is obviously what get's some people off, and as long as they don't look down on me because i don't own lipstick or heals i'm not going to care what they are doing.
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Flackette Goes Retro
04/27/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
I like the fashion, but hell no I will not live like my grandmothers - raising children, doing all the housework and cooking by themselves, being underpaid when they did have paid work and putting their husbands' educations before their own. No thank you.
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applejuice
04/27/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
This reminds me of some weird Japanese dress-up sex-play kind of thing.

Just throwing that out there!
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PicosPardos
04/27/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
Feminism is not about "choices," but about equality.
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andheartss haz it
04/27/09

@PicosPardos: Having the inability to choose makes one less equal. It's as much about choice as it is equality. One can't go without the other.
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Laulau
04/27/09

@andheartss haz it: I take what PicosPardos to be saying is that certain choices are not compatible with feminism - if you choose to deny your rights and privileges, or those of other women, that is not feminist. Equality involves having a lot of choices, but not just any choice.
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hippichx sez PEACE PLEASE
04/27/09

@PicosPardos: being a feminist means respecting ones choice, if that is what makes them happy. ie; if a man wanted to bake me cupcakes all day, i would be perfectly fine with that. if a woman wants to do it, it is her choice. by saying a woman shouldn't choose to fit a dusty stereotype is equally wrong in my book.
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Laulau
04/27/09

@hippiechx is NOT A NUGGET: I'll repeat what I said above, since I'd be interested in your response - I think being a feminist requires respecting a large swathe of choices, but that certain choices (whether or not they make you happy) are incompatible with feminism.
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prettycool
04/27/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
The girls I knew like this were pinup-ey punks. They wore peep-toed pumps to school with thick ass eyeliner pencil skirts and cardigans over their ripped up band shirts.

They scoffed when I said I enjoyed The Cramps, The Misfits, et al. just as much as them... jerks.
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feministabroad
04/27/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
Im sorry. I will admit it. I hate the times, but I love the look. The 50s are my favorite fashion era. I love pin up girl styles. And yes, I even recognize the racism. I have never seen a Black pinup from back in the day. I know its like saying "oh I wish Black women were included in this kind of oppresion." But what I am saying is that I know the wrongs of it but I just love the look. I love it.
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J.D.Regent
04/27/09

@feministabroad: I think for me anyway part of the appeal is about how attainable the look is. It does take effort, but with effort, it really doesn't matter what I look like, my size, or whatever because the aesthetic doesn't even pretend toward naturalism. I think that having the artifice so forefronted is what makes the look available to so many different kinds of women and also gives it that subversive quality.

To compare beauty icons, you can't fake what, say, Cindy Crawford's got. But Bettie Page, you have a shot at.
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veronykah
04/27/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
I don't know, I've always idolized Mae West.
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bluebears
04/27/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
a-hem (whispers) I don't even like the clothes.

Commence rotten fruit throwing
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hippichx sez PEACE PLEASE
04/27/09

@bluebears: i don't mind looking at them once and while, but otherwise i agree. i always wonder if they are worried about how their hair looks during sex, or if it becomes a giant hairspray rats nest... and what about after, do they go wash off the smeared make up? do they have to shower in the morning and at night? i know it's an odd train of thought, but seriously.
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LacyBones
04/27/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
I'm so tired of this argument. Jezebel covered it less than a year ago when Do Good Feminists Bake Cupcakes? came out in The Guardian. So the argument that keeps getting rehashed is that those who love pin-up culture and the revival of 1950s domestic ideals are all actually fetishizing the domestic skills and not appreciating the many negatives of housewifery in the 1950s.

Excuse me, but I'm a feminist and I love these things. Wasn't/Isn't the point of feminism that I am able to make a choice as a woman without it being made because I'm a woman. Basically, I can choose to be June Cleaver or Donna Reed or Blaze Starr if I want to? Aren't I as a modern educated self-aware woman supposed to embrace my femininity and not be held back by it? I'm not sacrificing anything to try to keep a clean house, cook for my household, bake, stitch, wear cute pump and fantastic lingerie, etc. I take pride in it. I revel in it. Basically, most days of the working week, I come home and relax for about 15 minutes before I spend two hours preparing dinner. In pumps and a pencil skirt. Not because I have to, but because I enjoy it. I love putting on my apron, I love going through recipes.

And to assert that we're consciously ignoring the pains of the 50s housewife, well that's just the problem with all -isms isn't it- lumping and speaking to the lowest common denominator? I'm sure we're all aware of how hard life was for the retro housewife. I'm currently jumping between images of the mothers in the movie Radioflyer and in the flashback sequences of The Salton Sea. I assure you Feminister-than-thou Womyn, I an extremely aware of the pressure and problems. My grandmother was a casualty of Happy Housewife Syndrome.
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tomatoheart
04/27/09

@LacyBones: Can someone who doesn't identify as feminist also dress in a dress and heels and bake cupcakes and not do it as a feminist act -- does the mere fact that she's dressing up like a 1950s housewife automatically make her a feminist?

She doesn't address feminism or performativity in any way in this article that I can see.
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Dodgergirl
04/27/09

@LacyBones: This is fair, but I think this speaks to the flaws in the way that trends like this get covered in the media. Veronica Orso-Flores discussion of the trend DOES seem like white-washing, and media coverage of this tends to focus on these types of discussions. It's always all about fashion and food. If these trends get discussed in this way, then I think it's completely valid to critique that discussion, because it (meaning the discussion, not the trend) perpetuates stereotypes and can be damaging to women as a whole.

Which is not to say that your choice isn't valid, just that the way we discuss it is really, really flawed.
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HuckleberryFriend
04/27/09

@LacyBones: But this isn't what the post was saying- Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Sadie was making the point that dressing up like an imaginary 1950's housewife/pin-up girl is problematic because it's mimicking an extremely sexist historical reality. As "Miss V" says herself, these activities go hand in hand with attitudes about women being aesthetic objects who should be seen and not heard. I know you choose your choice but not all women who do this understand the historical context.
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inabook
04/27/09

@LacyBones: You are fantastic. Thank you for articulating that and putting that all out there. I also really enjoy some stereotypically old-school feminine things, and I do sometimes feel that we are looked down on here for choosing to do something we enjoy-- even when have thought about why we like it. I don't feel like I have a duty to feminism to deny myself enjoyment in my personal life; I just feel I have a duty to demand respect.
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LacyBones
04/27/09

@HuckleberryFriend: But I think awareness of what was and what is is what makes the difference.

I think we can all agree that people who do something without knowing anything about what they're doing are just plain ignorant. But enough people in the culture do know a little something.

At the very least they can play on the madonna/whore idealization very very well. ;)
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sciencerules
04/27/09

@LacyBones: And, friended. You make an excellent point, and one which I think some people miss: that feminism is also about removing the value judgements about male and female activities. If men and women are equal, then traditionally male and traditionally female activities are also equal. If you're making an active, informed choice to love baking cupcakes while wearing an apron, just to pick a random example from my personal life, that's no less feminist than anything else. Not to mention that there's value in demonstrating that female feminists can enjoy "feminine" activities.

Holy alliteration, batman, but I think you get my point.

And yeah, the fifties were a sexist time period--most of history was. I'm not sure the article deals specifically with feminism here, but it's worth noting that you can do these things in a feminist way.
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HuckleberryFriend
04/27/09

@LacyBones: I hope you're right!
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Flackette Goes Retro
04/27/09

@LacyBones: And friended! You remind me of my feminist-heavy knitting group friends.
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Penny
04/28/09

@LacyBones: I didn't really read into this post in the same way you have, and while I like to cook like a fiend and wear high heels, I still kind of find the appropriation of era-specific fashion unnerving. This has less to do with Feminism and more to do with my opinions about fashion and style (i.e. true style v caricature/costume).

The fact is that most of us, I suspect even you a bit, look to the past through a somewhat biased lens. It's not bad or good, it is the reality. Some are more informed than others.

Personally, I am tired of the "Feminism means I can do whatever I want" argument, or the "please don't take away my feminist card!" lament. You CAN do whatever you want, we all can. This is not governed by Feminism just because we happen to be female.

The trick really is the judgment, and I think it's something we all struggle with.
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
04/27/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
I think this might be a little unfair. I've been heavy into this culture - women who go out of their way to wear vintage Cuban heel stockings, vintage clothes, etc, etc. Yes, I guess some just do it and never think about the era, but most who are into it think extensively about the era, learn it, research it. The women, especially, tend to look at the female experience from the modern perspective and do exactly that kind of feminist analyzing about where they are and where they have come from. I never heard of this girl and can't say what she is thinking, but many in the retro movement do see the bigger picture. Probably better than most because they absorb history more than the average person.
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rednrowdy
04/27/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
as great as the clothes were, are we forgetting that the varga girls and their ilk were DRAWINGS?! they weren't actual women! a guy by the name of varga drew them - hence the name. i think they are fantastic as art, but aspiring to that ideal is a joke because it's not real.
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veronykah
04/27/09

@rednrowdy: I've seen some examples of the photos that the Varga [I think] images were based on. Its interesting to actually see the REAL girl and then the idealized version she was based on.
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LaComtesse
04/27/09

In reply to You, Madam, Are No Bettie Page
A life based on pretense or, more kindly, "performance art" irks me. In the long-run, if it makes you happy, be my guest, but, in my judgmental, stormy corner of hell, I just feel like it's living a lie and perpetuating the glory of something that was never glorious.
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bklyn155
04/27/09

@LaComtesse Mourns Bea Arthur: I love to visit your judgemental, stormy corner of hell!
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LaComtesse
04/27/09

@bklyn155: I'm always looking for friends over here!!
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