lisaappignanesi

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Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
What Do Bradshaw, Plath, And De Beauvoir Have In Common? An Addiction To Egotistical Men
In Post-Industrial Society, Women Are Either "Princess Crazy" Or Her Handmaidens

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Shelwood
09/09/09

In reply to Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
I am currently being treated for depression and PTSD. Initially I was in a coed CBT-based program. Three weeks ago I started in a women-only DBT program. I balked against it at first, but I made some adjustment, and, remarkably, the staff did too. The entire staff, except for our temporary primary psychiatrist, is female: therapists, social workers, nurses, pharmacists, everyone. A lot of us are trauma survivors, and it's an amazingly safe and non-judgmental place to be.

The attitude of the program is that mental illness is treated 60% with meds, 40% with skills and processing. Most of us are on SSRIs, many on other psych meds like Abilify, Depakote, whatever helps. They work with the physical, too, giving us appropriate pain meds if needed and offering yoga and relaxation sessions.

We do 2 hours of group therapy daily, at least 1 hour of art therapy, plus journaling skills, emotion mgmt, medication education, nutrition (daily for those that need it). We meet weekly with both our therapist and with the primary dr (2 separate hours/wk).

If you need it, a program like this is phenomenal, and the concept (DBT) was developed by and for women.
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OneTwoPunch
09/09/09

@Shelwood: That sounds kick ass! Best of luck to you. I applaud you for doing the hard work to great health, plus your courage in facing your challenges head-on.

I've seen sufferers so deep in denial that they walk away from help and/or committing to the process because they wouldn't admit to themselves the reality of their situation.

May I digitally shake your hand?
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holden caulfield's (canadian) female doppelgänger
09/09/09

@Shelwood: I also want to say this sounds amazing, and has gotten me interested.

I've got anxiety and depression and there have been recent times I feel lost enough that whatever help I'm trying to give myself is not enough, like I haven't got enough hands to juggle it all.

is this a day program, or do you stay there? I really like the sounds of the relaxation/yoga, journaling, and art therapy, and the nutrition skills - along with acceptance of meds.

I am honestly kind of jealous of this. how on earth do you find programs like this?
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Shelwood
09/09/09

@holden caulfield's (canadian) female doppelgänger: It's a day program, either whole or half day, some go 2-3 days/wk, I go 5 days full day. I lucked out and it was associated with the hospital I initially went to for headache and depression.

It's in NJ, Princeton to be exact. They are about to add a second site in Hamilton later this month, and a third in New Brunswick in January. Any Jezzies who want more info can email me.
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La_Panique
09/09/09

In reply to Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
There's an interesting book to be written about how fads in mental treatment have harmed and helped women's bodies and minds over the past two centuries. Mad, Bad & Sad is not that book.
Elaine Showalter's "The Female Malady" IS that book.
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Flackette Goes Retro
09/09/09

In reply to Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
This is why I requested a female therapist.
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andBegorrah
09/09/09

In reply to Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
Couldn't it just be titled The Madness, Woman and Civilization's Attic?
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y0shimi
09/09/09

In reply to Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
Psychotherapy, whoever is getting it, has precious little scientific or clinical basis.... I'm surprised it's working for anyone at all. Of course it's more likely to be afflicted on a woman for doing nothing more than behaving the way a male psychotherapist believes is not "normal".
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mbprice
09/09/09

@y0shimi: Ummm... what? No scientific or clinical basis for psychotherapy? May I suggest: [www.apa.org] [www.ajp.org] [www.springer.com] + lots and lots of other things you can google? Psychotherapy has a very rich scientific (as in, experimental, double-blind, etc.) tradition. It's not with its faults -- it's currently playing catch-up when it comes to culturally sensitive, culturally inclusive treatments -- but it's far from smoke and mirrors.
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Edited by mbprice at 09/09/09 4:19 PM mbprice was starred mbprice was unstarred

colormeroutine
09/09/09

@y0shimi: did you maybe mean psychoanalysis?
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y0shimi
09/09/09

@colormeroutine: @mbprice: sorry, yes I'm thinking specifically of psychoanalysis. Oops. Difficult to believe but I have a BSc Psychology and ought to know the difference....!

(I like the fact that the comment with the mistake is my first comment to get noticed here :)
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mbprice
09/09/09

In reply to Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
My first thought was, I bet she's British! And I'm right. For various reasons, the British (as a stereotype) are far, far more skeptical of mental illness and treatments thereof than Yanks. How different cultures, even those as superficially similar as the British and American cultures, interpret mental illness and other types of cognitive states is incredibly interesting to me.

Anyway, I'd say it's basically impossible for someone without a mental illness to understand what it's like for people who do. The whole "whaa whaa, it's all in your head, get over it!" mentality comes out of this.
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msAnthrope
09/09/09

In reply to Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
"It's clear that aspects of mental illness are culturally determined — there's a reason why the diagnosis and even the symptoms of hysteria were prevalent in one century, BPD in another..."

i keep wondering: has there been an astounding uptick in the number of people on antidepressants? or is it just that people talk about it more openly now? there seem to be so many jezzies who need these, and i wonder if its cultural? environmental? a combination?
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Penny
09/09/09

@msAnthrope: I think it has a lot to do with societal messaging, personally. And advertising. So, to that degree, it's very much cultural.

I come from a perspective of having refused and hated the thought of medication for depression (like, from the age of 13 to 28) until it got bad enough to land me in the hospital. I am still working out if they are necessary for me, personally. But even though I think they are over-prescribed, I try to leave that conversation for the advocates. I'd rather err on the side of caution and not make anyone taking meds feel shitty. It's not the patients, it's the industry.
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gerbilsoutofexile...is cheap and easy
09/09/09

@msAnthrope: My journey with antidepressants started with post-partum depression. It lasted through 11 years and six different types of medication, until I chose to withdraw cold-turkey (not recommended on Cymbalta) this winter. It was brutal and wrenching, but necessary, and I don't regret it.

There is a long history of depression in my family, and I strongly believe that it was hereditary. Unlike my Grandmother, who was thrown into a mental hospital for a period of time after the birth of her fifth (and final) child, I was cognizant of what was happening to me and was lucky enough to have drug therapy available.

Do I think they are over-prescribed? Absolutely; a large number of drugs are. Are they necessary? Absolutely; they saved my life.
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msAnthrope
09/09/09

@Penny:

and you were so young when you were first aware that you were depressed. that's what i'm wondering. it's clear from its duration that you weren't just going through bad moods! was the messaging so prevalent even back then?
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Penny
09/09/09

@msAnthrope: To be fair my parents refused to put me on meds so it wasn't really my choice at the time....
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msAnthrope
09/09/09

@gerbilsoutofexile...is cheap and easy:

that had to be horrible, going through withdrawal from that stuff. but i agree with you that there's a percentage of people for whom depression is hereditary, and so clearly it's chemical and requires medication to balance.

i mean, the worst i ever have is during my period when i get these weird crying jags for absolutely no reason. i know there's nothing wrong, but i still feel down and sad. but when my period's done, so is the mood. so that's the most experience i have, but on even that level i can empathize with anybody who goes through this for months and months and months.
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Penny_Esq
09/09/09

In reply to Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
Sounds like Scientology propaganda.
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FrannyR
09/09/09

@Penny_Esq: Just what I was thinking! The scientolonuts are against psychiatry because of what psychiatrists did in the past. By that reasoning, there are quite a few things we should avoid. The history of dentistry is disgusting, but mental illness is probably more titillating.
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Penny_Esq
09/09/09

@FrannyR: Haha, with all those famous people involved there's no WAY Scientology could go after dentistry.
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OneTwoPunch
09/09/09

In reply to Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
Freud (if I remember correctly) had an extremely low success rate with his mostly female patients. I question how much this ratio has improved. I see women in my day to day life who are mentally ill, and are doing the typical combos of pills and talk therapy with some improvements, but very rarely resulting in a cure. It's about time someone explored why this is.
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colormeroutine
09/09/09

@OneTwoPunch: Oh my god I cannot even wrap my brain around how someone decrying poor treatment of women could support Freudian theory or practice.
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wtfox?!
09/09/09

@OneTwoPunch: My first question would be if they're getting the help they need (or if they can). Some people go through several therapists before they find one approach that works, because *gasp* everyone is different. Second, depending on insurance (oh, insurance), companies will often have a cap on the number of talk therapy sessions a patient can attend, while emphasizing drug treatment; this isn't of much benefit to people who don't need drugs but need other forms of help a therapist can provide. Lastly, in some cases... You're not looking at a "cure" for mental illness or distress. The best you can hope for is management and alleviation of symptoms. This isn't always true, but it is for some people.

(Also, in this day and age, I highly doubt many people seek out Freudian psychoanalysts; there are far more modern therapeutic models out there that don't have anything to do with Oedipus.)
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Edited by wtfox?! at 09/09/09 4:13 PM wtfox?! was starred wtfox?! was unstarred

OneTwoPunch
09/09/09

@wtfox?!: Thanks for your comments. All your points are good ones. This subject is not my forte, so too often when I encounter mental illness in those around me, I often feel adrift on how best to address this topic and/or their concerns.

My comment about Freud was a musing about how vast and long-lasting his influence was (or is) upon the psychiatric community based on the author's explorations . Glad to hear that you perceive it as of little or no relevance.
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Penny
09/09/09

@wtfox?!: Everything you've said applies to me. I haven't been able to find a therapist who works for me, and my insurer will only pay for one session a month, when I have been advised to go weekly.
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FrannyR
09/09/09

@colormeroutine: How familiar are you with Freud's theories? Other than "it's all about sex" or gems such as "penis envy", which is what most ppl think of when you mention Freud. Have you read Freud's actual writings, or just other ppl's opinions and (mis)conceptions about freudian theory?
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colormeroutine
09/09/09

@FrannyR: I have read them. I was a psych major, and I actually took a class in psychoanalytic theory taught by a current practitioner of psychoanalysis. Believe me, I formed my own opinions on the matter
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Penny_Esq
09/09/09

@Penny: I pay for my therapy out of pocket, and I know I'm in liberal commie Portland, but I bet if you found a therapist you clicked with (easier said than done) you might be able to negotiate with her. My therapist bills the insurance companies 50% more than she charges me, and I pay her once every three sessions. I don't go every week, but I can afford every other week and it's DEFINITELY better than none at all. (Although again, it's tough to find a therapist you click with and therapy with anyone you don't click with is a waste of time and money.)
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Penny
09/09/09

In reply to Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
The crazies (I say this as a crazy, so don't take it the wrong way) have always been treated badly, male or female. I think what's interesting about women is that "nervousness," "fragility," and the like were thought of as symptoms of mental disorders, not reactions to a stifled life with no opportunities outside of the wifely/mommy box. These women's "illnesses" were either a direct result of societal pressures or their disorders were heavily exacerbated by them. It is a shame that she was not able to better track the "trends" of disorder diagnoses, because it is very interesting how that occurs, not only because of what's happening in society but also as understanding about disorders evolves and new ones are named.

After reading this, I pretty much want to go home and read The Yellow Wallpaper. This is why I minored in women's literature, talk about a lens into some fucked up environments.
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JilliefromChile
09/09/09

@Penny: The fuzzy boundary between non-conformity and mental illness has long been discussed, but it seems the lesson never sinks in. A couple modern day examples brought up in my Technology and Society class were ADD and the medicalization of menopause. ADD as a diagnosis would not exist if people were not required to sit in a classroom or work at a desk for hours on end, which only recently has become the case in human's evolutionary history. Furthermore, cross cultural studies have indicated vast differences in experience of menopause. Here in the west some doctors will start their female patients on hormones as soon as they reach menopause, whether they are experiencing inconvenient symptoms or not. As menopause is defined as, and treated like a pathology, it seems more western women experience unpleasant symptoms. In many African and Islamic countries, however, menopause is a time of increased freedom. In these cultures, restrictions on seclusion, dress and male company may be relaxed. In these countries, there is a much lower reported incidence of unpleasant psychological and physiological symptoms.
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EmpressZombie
09/09/09

@JilliefromChile: AAARgh and the well worn bloody ADD argument that it's only to do with the classroom.
NO! It's a problem with planning and structure. ADHD doesn't just affect me academically, it affects my social skills, it affects my romantic life, my friendships, everything. Even my sleep! I'm in a frigging brain daze all the time.
I'm of African descent, I was born in Africa before I moved to Europe and I had ADHD although it was more manageable when I was younger thanks to my photographic memory.
Doctors have recognized ADHD in the past, I think even Hippolytus described some similar symptoms (don't quote me on that though).
I bet 50,000 years ago, there was somebody in the tribe who was always dreamy and taking incredibly stupid risks and just pissing everyone else off.
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Mmmmkay (gellin' and Jezebelin)
09/09/09

In reply to Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
Mad, bad and sad? Just Eat, Pray and Love. Ta da! all better.
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FattyCatty
09/09/09

@Mmmmkay (gellin' and Jezebelin): But if you do that, you might get Committed!
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Omitofo
09/09/09

In reply to Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
well, there are FAR too many people today hooked on SSRI drugs. any book that promotes awareness of that is helpful in my opinion. too bad she's too jumbled to cut a clear message or make a clear point.
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LaComtesse
09/09/09

@Omitofo: ... except most research shows SSRIs are non-habit forming. They're really not drugs that get you high or even do much for you if you don't need them.
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Penny
09/09/09

@Omitofo: People don't get "hooked" on SSRIs, sorry.
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deltabella
09/09/09

@Omitofo: Yeah, I have a terrible addiction to my SSRIs that keep me from being either manic or suicidal. I really should look into a twelve step program for that.
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purpleshoes reminds everyone to take typing breaks and stretch, ow
09/09/09

@Penny: True, and this poster does not have science to back her up if she's going to sling acronyms around without fact-checking them.

SNRI withdrawal is one of the scariest things I've ever seen.
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cate3710
09/09/09

@deltabella: Yeah, my addiction lets me get out of bed in the morning and helps me make it through the day without bawling at the drop of a hat. Fucking SSRIs.
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Penny
09/09/09

@purpleshoes reminds everyone to take typing breaks and stretch, ow: No one should stop taking SSRI/SNRIs without a doctor's help.
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gerbilsoutofexile...is cheap and easy
09/09/09

@purpleshoes reminds everyone to take typing breaks and stretch, ow: I've done it and it was horrid. Some days, I wasn't sure I could get through another day like it.
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Flackette Goes Retro
09/09/09

@Omitofo: Yeah, and diabetics are hooked on insulin - they really should stop taking that stuff. And my dad is really hooked on his high blood pressure meds.
As a taker of SSRIs, let me assure you that a you don't get "hooked" on them. They are non-addictive. Now, if you stop taking them you do have to step down slowly or risk withdrawal symptoms. But you don't jones for them like you would heroin, or a cigarette, or a diet coke. They answer a physiological need for me - my brain does not process serotonin properly, and they correct that.
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Omitofo
09/09/09

@Flackette Goes Retro: "my brain does not process serotonin properly." Well, that certainly makes you feel depressed. but is that what CAUSED the depression or is it a sympton? that is what is still very unclear to science, though the pharma companies are obviously successfull in advertising your belief as the truth.
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Shelwood
09/09/09

@Omitofo: Chicken or egg? Two people can go through the same experience, and the one that has the brain with faulty serotonin processing gets depressed, the other is fine. All the talk therapy and skills therapy in the world wouldn't have helped me w/o the meds I needed to get my brain functioning enough to do the the therapy.
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DudleyHeinsbergen
09/09/09

@Omitofo: I try to refrain from commenting on these articles because I have such an unbendable stance but this comment became impossible to ignore. WHat caused my chemical imbalance? Nothing. I have one. I was born with it. Like my Dad. Like my Grandmother. Like my Great-Grandmother. Like my Great-Great-Grandfather. Are you insinuating that we all had the same experience that would cause an imbalance, and that it couldn't ::Gasp!:: be genetic?
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Omitofo
09/09/09

@ethelinefourteen: well unless you were adopted...environmental factors/psychological conditioning would be passed down from parents-to-children.
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DudleyHeinsbergen
09/09/09

@Omitofo: This is why I refrain from these threads usually and will now return to that. My father didn't know any of the other people mentioned. So that puts a hole in your air tight theory without me being adopted.
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Edited by DudleyHeinsbergen at 09/09/09 10:35 PM DudleyHeinsbergen was starred

traumamama
09/09/09

In reply to Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
My favorite is when vibrators were invented to alleviate "nervous tension" and "hysteria" in female patients. The doctor's hand would get tired...thus the first vibrators were invented.

Prefer THAT to the boner-killing effects of SSRI'S anyday.
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colormeroutine
09/09/09

In reply to Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy
There is also the fact that treatments for physical ailments at the time were not much more logical, reasonable, effective, or sensitively administered
You can't completely discount the huge advances in science and medicine in the last few decades by going "well those guys in 1910 were wrong, so the ones now probably are too"
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Edited by colormeroutine at 09/09/09 3:48 PM colormeroutine was starred colormeroutine was unstarred

Penny
09/09/09

@colormeroutine: A resounding yes to your last point.
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lalaland13
09/09/09

@colormeroutine: Exactly. It is still by no means perfect-I wanted to cry in frustration last time at the doctor-but it's a helluva lot better. 50 years ago, my grandmother was given things like electroshock therapy and other somewhat ineffective treatments. She killed herself before she was 60. My mom says the difference between her treatment and mine is remarkable, and I plan/hope to be around a while.

I am trying to get a talk therapist, though. My prescribing doc alone isn't cutting it.
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rah29
09/09/09

@colormeroutine: It's a shame if she doesn't track the trends in wider medicine at given times, because I think that misses out on some of the most interesting and nuanced stuff. I'm not an expert on 19th century medicine, but the scientific climate at that time did tend toward 'medicalisation'--seeing everything through the lens of 'science'. Surely we have to think about how to contextualise the treatment of women in a time when, for example, phrenology is all the rage? It's not too useful to look at it through a contemporary lens (and then to apply that same flawed logic to contemporary therapies).
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mbprice
09/09/09

@lalaland13: You might already know about this resource, but if not: [locator.apa.org]
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Flackette Goes Retro
09/09/09

@lalaland13: My great-grandmother was pumped full of sedatives and "nerve pills". Her marriage was unhappy, but she stayed in it and filled what I guess she saw as her responsibility. She died in a horrible traffic accident, likely caused by being doped up by her doctors. Today I can take a zoloft (which has no apparent side effects for me) to stave off anxiety attacks, talk to a therapist about my problems, and not have to sedate myself to get through a day without crying. I'd say things have improved somewhat.
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Edited by Flackette Goes Retro at 09/09/09 4:27 PM

xgurl3eb
09/09/09

@lalaland13: my neighbor was given shock therapy "treatments" about 5 years ago, it aged her 20 years and ruined her mind completely. I can't believe this crap still has people pushing it, ridiculous.
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funzette
09/09/09

@xgurl3eb: Electroconvulsive therapy has a wretched history, but has good evidence for it. The cognitive changes rarely persist, and if you have depression with psychotic features, it can be a really effective (not first line!) treatment, and should be used with caution, just like medications and hospitalization.

I'm so sorry your neighbor had a terrible experience, but saying "I can't believe this crap still has people pushing it" isn't fair to people who have struggled with mental health issues and may be considering ECT, people who have benefited from ECT, and reasonable clinicians who weigh the risks, benefits, and patients' values to provide good treatment. Psychiatrists can be good or bad at their jobs, but they certainly aren't pushing ECT for shits and giggles.
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lalaland13
09/09/09

@mbprice: Bless you, wise bearded one. I appreciate it greatly. My current doc likes to go off on tangents that have nothing to do with me. And I'm thinking "Dude I did not just pay my co-pay to talk about what you think about the price of eggs in China." But I may have found someone anyway.

And to Flackette and xgurl, thanks to you, too.
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Edited by lalaland13 at 09/09/09 5:06 PM lalaland13 was starred lalaland13 was unstarred

CherylDiane
09/09/09

@xgurl3eb: I've had clinical depression since childhood. I'd been using anti-depressants successfully for many years, until 8 years ago when I had a complete breakdown. I literally could not move I was so depressed.

After many medicine tweaks, my doctor offered the alternative of electroconvulsive therapy. I was pretty desperate, so I went through with it. I can honestly say it saved my life. I was able to go back to work and take care of my son.

It was not without side effects, including memory loss of events within months of the therapy, but I have to say it was worth it.

It's my understanding that this treatment is actually being used more frequently and is quite successful. I'm sorry that your neighbor had such a bad experience, but it really helped "reset" whatever imbalance I had in my brain and it didn't "ruin my mind" in any way.
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Shelwood
09/10/09

@funzette: agreed. I mention above that I'm in an outpatient DBT program that's relatively cutting edge. The very same hospital routinely offers ECT to patients with non-responsive depression (meds and/or therapy aren't bringing them out of the hole). It's always voluntary, the technology has greatly improved, and for some patients it works wonders. Some do have bad reactions (just like with meds or talk), some have a single bad session and then go on to respond... it has a bad rap, but ECT does seem to have a place in the psychotherapy toolbox.
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Mad, Bad & Sad: History Of Female Mental Illness Turns Into Indictment Of Psychotherapy

What Do Bradshaw, Plath, And De Beauvoir Have In Common? An Addiction To Egotistical Men

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