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Lesbianism: Sexual Orientation, Political Choice — Or Both?
Lessons in Good Parenting
New York, 10:33 AM
Tue Dec 1
67 posts in the last 24 hours
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Lesbianism: Sexual Orientation, Political Choice — Or Both? |
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02/03/09
Non-feminists of any sex are kind of repugnant, aren't they? And feminists in general are pretty attractive...
This bothers the hell out of me.
02/02/09
Men commit murder 8 times more often than women. It's foolish to pretend that women need to fear violence from other women. They just don't. Even when a crime has a female perp, the victim is five times more likely to be male than female. Feel free to consult the US Department of Justice's stats on this. It is not "demonization" to point out that you're a lot physically safer in an all-female environment.
[www.ojp.usdoj.gov]
The women in the "womyn's land" piece were victims of sexist, homophobic discrimination that is largely unimaginable to women who didn't grow up in the same era.
Bindel's piece is irritating... but Jezebel tying it to womyn's lands is intellectually unconscionable.
(I still love Jez. And men.)
02/03/09
I don't think that anyone was arguing that fact. but to imply that all men are violent, as the tone of the womyn's land residents did, or to imply that any man is violent PURELY because he is a man is what I had trouble with./ I'm a feminist, dammit, and I don't want to have to keep explaining that I'm not some savage who is going to drag my woman by her hair back to my cave. It's just really disappointing that, after so many years of this movement, we're still here.
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02/02/09
It's only hard to get in bed with a man after "fighting the patriarchy" if he's one who is contributing to the problem. She fails to see that there are a lot of men out there who respect women and believe in gender equality, and so no, it's NOT hard to get in bed with them if they support what you're doing. After all, men are victimized by the patriarchal system too, in different ways.
I don't see why we're giving this idea so much attention. It's so small-minded and bigoted and goes against what feminism actually stands for (which is gender equality, not female superiority over men).
02/02/09
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02/03/09
I kid, I kid. It's what I do.
02/03/09
I was one of (surely) many who sent this in as a tip, because I was intrigued and somewhat ambivalent about the whole separatist idea. I understand the impulse, and there's certainly something admirable about the way these women faced down a hostile society, but I think Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon, who didn't go off and live on a farm in the country, but stayed around in society fighting for change, will always be more admirable in my mind than these separatists. But of course fighting's not for everyone, and you can't blame them for just wanting to go somewhere with friendly faces and be left alone. So shades of grey, yes, many of them, and sometimes tiring.
02/02/09
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02/02/09
i know nothing is really expected, but i can't help but feel like a bad feminist sometimes when i think about how i like relationship sex and want to be married and have babies. and yea we're supposed to be past that in modern feminism but it crops up everywhere!
sorry for the rant.
02/02/09
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02/02/09
You should have sex with people you have desire for, full stop. Anything else, over the long haul, is too much work. And if there's one thing in life that shouldn't feel like work, it's sex.
02/02/09
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02/02/09
Women still do, all the time, put up with a TON of sexist shit in their lives, and although I don't know that I'd choose separatism as a way to react to it, I understand the impulse. It is my job, as a feminist, to understand the impulse and discuss it RATIONALLY.
02/02/09
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02/02/09
I think a lot of the reactions to this article are because of a generational disconnect. The changes in society since these women decided to separate themselves from it leave the (generally) much younger audience here baffled at how they came to that choice. Which is something that might be seen as a positive sign, were one so inclined, although it can cut both ways.
02/02/09
02/02/09
I have to ask, because I usually thoroughly enjoy your comments, if you are not also attempting to shut down the discussion in this comment?
Battling to frame a discussion is no discussion at all.
02/02/09
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02/02/09
I'm not interested in revisiting old sawhorses, in short, in the name of "discussion."
02/02/09
And then I finally get over myself and read to page four, and here you are. Thank you.
02/02/09
I don't even know where I should start or how to frame my response but essentially you are criticizing a group of women for criticizing a group of women.
I'm sorry but from reading the article the women of LYE come off as very narrow minded to me. They talk about sexuality being a choice but in reality they are saying that hetero/feminist women should choose to be lesbians. I can't imagine how they would react if a member decided she wanted to be with a man, they would probably perform and intervention. Maybe the article would have gotten a better response if the women of LYE had talked about their experiences and why they joined instead of saying that hetero women are completely misguided. I know I would have had a better reaction and so would have many of the other women here, they got defensive because they were offended, as they should be. It is quite alright to say this is my experience, it is not alright to say this is how it should be because this is what works for me.
02/02/09
02/02/09
"Your demand that they address you in a manner that makes you feel comfortable about your own choices is an exercise of heterosexual privilege."
What the hell are you talking about?
Is it okay for conservatives to say all people need to practice abstinence becauase this is what works for them, and those who don't need to see the light? And if I call them out on it am I exercising liberal privilege.
Sharing your experience about being a lesbian by choice and telling women they should be lesbians, are two different things and guess which one is going to get a better response, this has nothing to do with "hetero privillage" it has evrything to do with framing your argument well.
Why is it okay for these women to make generaliztions about sexuality and gender but wrong for people to call them out on their judgements? Do we all have to hold hands and dance just because these women call themselves feminists, does it make me an anti feminist because I don't support all women and their ideologies.
If LYE really wants women to "jump in beacause the water's fine" then they need to find a better way to get their message across other than judging women for their choices.
Maybe I shouldn't have responded to you because I'm guessing you just wanted everyone to agree with you and apologise for being bad feminists.
02/02/09
02/03/09
Here's the deal: I'm an honors science student. What this means is that I have precious few opportunities to take classes outside of my department. I have absolutely no formal training in women's studies, the feminist movement, or even anything vaguely sociological. Part of the reason I spend time on Jezebel is because this site is a fascinating, broad-spectrum, accessible introduction to a lot of the major feminist ideas.
What I ask of you is, instead of calling us out for being less educated on some of the deeper or more complex issues, help us out! Start a discussion of something new and different. We're here to talk and we're here to learn, but alienating us will accomplish neither.
02/03/09
02/03/09
God, must we have a discussion like this every time anything even remotely second-wave-y comes up?
02/02/09
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02/02/09
This makes me really uncomfortable. Isn't one of the biggest tenets of the feminist movement that women are unique individuals who should have the right to make decisions on their personal feelings? Lumping all men together as evil just seems like placing them under the same stereotype women are trying to escape.
Also: thank you, Anna, for pointing out the choice vs. non-choice of sexuality debate that this sparks. There's a lot I could say about this, but I feel like I'd be preaching to the Jezebel choir here =)
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Their choice does not infringe on mine. I wish them well.
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