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hot_kachina
12/14/09

In reply to Court-Ordered
Let's be clear - Courtney has lost legal guardianship over Frances, and while this may include physical custody, it is not as severe as losing actual custody/parental rights to the state or giving permanent guardianship to other parties. Temporary guardianship has been given to Frances' grandmother and aunt. The guardianship has nothing to do with the significant monies in trust to Frances due her when she turns 18. There is another court date in February, which is only 6 months until Frances turns 18. The court will likely enforce supervised visits between the two up until and possibly after the court date, but Frances' age is a huge factor. They will, as they surely have before, give Courtney a plan to follow: a step-by-step guide on normalizing her legal guardianship over her daughter.

We none of us know how Frances feels about her mother, although I'm sad for Courtney's sake that she's made it so easy for many people to imagine just that, and pass judgment. Much was made of Frances' tweet some months ago about not being able to wait to turn 18, but what teenage girl couldn't? If they have a somewhat healthy relationship - Courtney's [possible] drug addiction doesn't necessarily mean they have an abusive, dangerous one - then Frances will soon be old enough to decide for herself what type of relationship she wants with her mother, if she wants one at all.

No matter the outcome, my heart breaks for Courtney. As awed as I am by her talent - like so many Jezebelles, Live Through This was a watershed moment in my life - it's her intelligence and rawness that speaks loudest to me. I have never read an interview with her where I didn't sense her acute sense of the machine that guided her career and that of Kurt's. I liked to believe that I "understood" her -I'm a mother and recovering drug addict as well, and there was a horrible period in my life when the two intersected. I can't help but never having stopped wanting to be her friend - she can't have many good ones, or at least non-enablers. It's difficult for me to say she's getting what she's deserved, that she's gotten "enough chances." I only hope that she realizes that whatever she's doing, it isn't enough for the courts, let alone her daughter, who will soon be old enough to choose to have her out of her life forever, and no court in the world will be able to force Frances into having any kind of relationship with her then.
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szuperremek
12/14/09

In reply to Court-Ordered
I dislike seeing when Courtney makes the news for things like this.. Not because I necessarily believe that her life is still truly spiraling out of control (I don't get that impression, really), but because it reinforces that 'trashy junkie girl' image that she'll never be able to shake. Without fail, that's going to be the tone that the papers take with stories about her.

'What a fuckup', 'Should never been allowed to procreate in the first place', people will say. Yet, has anyone been following her life more closely lately? She hasn't really been doing anything outlandish or baffling as far as I've heard, so I do wonder what this is all about.

Bet it didn't involve violence, for example, yet she'll continue to be ever more intensely vilified by the general public than, say, the Chris Browns of the world. Sigh.
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SharonTaint
12/14/09

In reply to Court-Ordered
17 years too late.
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5ft of fury
12/14/09

@SharonTaint: Yep. It's hard to feel bad for anyone in this situation, except for Frances.
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5ft of fury
12/14/09

In reply to Court-Ordered
Ok. I want to like Courtney Love. I loved her in Hole. She is clearly talented. But she is a fucked up human being. Normally, I'd shrug and say "well, if she's just hurting herself....". But it's clear that she's not. I don't want to sound like one of those self righteous assholes who holds parents to a higher standard of behavior than everyone else, but fuck it. Parents should be held to a higher standard of behavior than their childless counterparts. Because they have children who are emotionally, physically, and financially dependent on them. So, yeah, Courtney losing custody of her daughter is a terrible thing. But maybe this is the slap in the face she needs to get her shit together so that her daughter will be able to have some sort of relationship with her mother in the future. Oh, and for the commentors who feel the need to snark on Frances because she's 17 and stands to inherit her father's money and is the daughter of two rock legends: go fuck yourselves. So she's 17 and might be a prick. Newsflash: most 17 year olds are. And most of you have no idea how horrible it is to go from being a child to essentially being a parent. I don't feel bad for Courtney, because Courtney has had all of the chances in the world to get her shit together, and yet manages to continually fuck up again. I feel bad for her daughter, who has to live every day with the reality that she is more mature than her mother.
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Bunsen Honeydew
12/14/09

@5ft of fury: I can get behind the beginning of your post - but I'm a bit confused about your hostility. Everytime Frances shows up in tweet beat, I always think "What a hilarious and awesome girl she turned out to be!" and then I look at the comments and it seems like I'm not original in my sentiments. I mean, I guess hilarious and awesome could be construed as hating on someone, if you hate funny, smart and cool things.
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5ft of fury
12/14/09

@Bunsen Honeydew: There were some comments below about how Frances just has to be a pompous ass. I mean, she very well could be, but dude, the kid's 17. I guess I'm also hostile because I have some experience with family members who are total fuck ups regarding drugs and parenting and everytime I hear someone say "oh well so and so is such a wonderful artist, I feel so bad for them that they fucked up their life with drugs" it feels like a slap in the face to me. And I would imagine to most people who felt that they had to become the parent for their drug addled "talented" but messed up parents.
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Tchotchke
12/14/09

@5ft of fury: Those comments about Frances pissed me off because aside from her age, she's gone through a lot more in her 17 years than most people--death of her father, 17 years of drug abuse by her mother, having this all played out in the media when it's hard enough to grow up without extra attention, and so on. Frankly, she comes across as well-adjusted and sage. For my cousins and my friends who have parents with substance abuse issues, acting out and being developmentally-stunted and bitter are par for the course. If Frances has managed not to incur any of those sentiments, then she earns a lot of respect in my book, because it's tough, it's really tough.

Re: Courtney--again, I can only speak for myself, but I have experience with loved ones with substance abuse issues. It makes me angry with I see someone prioritize their addiction over their children, but they're sick. They aren't playing with a full deck of cards and that took me a long time to realize. I totally, totally get what you mean about a slap in the face part. All drug addicts have potential and when someone squanders it away, it's sad to me. I'm sorry, I am probably rambling (my Advil PM is kicking in). I just think that there's a middle ground between sympathizing with Courtney and lambasting her. (For that, see the lovely exchange below!)
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5ft of fury
12/14/09

@Tchotchke: Thank you for being able to understand. I don't hate Courtney, and I don't wish her harm. But I don't think she deserves all of this outpouring of sympathy she's getting, and frankly, it's not going to do her any good. Do we really believe that Lilo or Courtney or Britney are going to get any better just because we want to take them away and be their best friend and feed them cookies? No.
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erinna
12/14/09

In reply to Court-Ordered
Isn't it a little late for this though? She's only a year from being legal anyway- I wonder why she wouldn't get emancipated? I wonder what the differences are.

I feel like this is such a sad situation and I can't help but feel bad for Courtney. She is clearly a very troubled woman with some serious struggles and isn't really equipped to deal with them. And I also feel for Frances Bean who also will have some emotional scars from such a turbulent upbringing. I can only wish the best for them.
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GreyCat
12/14/09

@erinna: She inherited much of her dad's estate. There might be issues about money management at that age.
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Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
12/14/09

In reply to Court-Ordered
Again?
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charliekohler
12/14/09

In reply to Court-Ordered
I feel like I'm the only person on Jezebel who dislikes Frances Bean Cobain. I find her insufferable and pompous.

*I'm not trying to make this situation seem unimportant- it sucks. And I'm sorry Cobain has had such a tumultuous childhood in terms of custody. My parents fought over custody of my brother and me for years (granted, neither of them were batshit crazy drug addicts), and it's no picnic for kids at any age.
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dangerslut
12/14/09

@charliekohler: Eh, she's 17. Weren't we all insufferable and pompous at that age? I know I was.
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BestEuphemismEver
12/14/09

@charliekohler: When I was 17, I was insufferable & pompous - who wasn't? (Not that I think you were trying to make light of the sitch, by the way).
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Being pecked to death by a chicken
12/14/09

@dangerslut: Shit. I'm 39 and still insufferable and pompous ;)
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A Small Turnip
12/14/09

@dangerslut: 28, insufferable and pompous, checking in.
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Scout
12/14/09

@Being pecked to death by a chicken: me too and I plan to become even MORE insufferable and pompous when I turn 40!

so there!
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KLondike5
12/14/09

In reply to Court-Ordered
I didn't get the impression from FBC's old tweets that she lived with her mom anyway, and I did get the idea that FBC lurves her grandma.

So I think it's probably more to do with conservatorship of her money than a major change in the kid's personal life.

Also: I kind of feel bad that I know any of this.
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jenrobe
12/14/09

@KLondike5: Me too. I'm all, oh, Frances seems like a normal teenager, not a bad kid - it's none of my business! Urk.
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hollygirl
12/14/09

In reply to Court-Ordered
Did something new happen? Things have been quiet for her tabloid-wise, maybe Frances asked to be moved?
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judgingamy
12/14/09

@hollygirl: I'm confused about this myself. i wish there were some more details.
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OneTwoPunch
12/14/09

In reply to Court-Ordered
And it only took 17 years to happen. In the media. In front of thousands of peoples' faces. Sad.
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Justine
12/14/09

@OneTwoPunch: Actually, it's happened before.
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OneTwoPunch
12/14/09

@Justine: Losing custody of her daughter?
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thejoyofsound
12/14/09

@OneTwoPunch: A couple of times.
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OneTwoPunch
12/14/09

@thejoyofsound: She's had a court take away child custody a couple of times?
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hej hej
12/14/09

@OneTwoPunch: Courtney lost custody of Frances Bean immediately after she was born. The authorities got involved after the infamous Vanity Fair article which detailed Courtney's alleged drug use whilst pregnant.

Sad stuff, and sadder still that history is repeating itself 17 years later...
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Tchotchke
12/14/09

@OneTwoPunch: Once right after Frances was born. She had stated in an interview with Lynn Hershberg that she had used heroin while she was pregnant--but before she knew. When the article appeared in Vanity Fair, there was a fire storm and Frances was taken away from Kurt and Courtney for a few months.

It happened again a few years ago after Courtney OD'ed on an opiate. OxyCotin, maybe? But in short, yeah.
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OneTwoPunch
12/14/09

@Tchotchke: That's just terrible. I feel awful for her—an article had to come out, that was so widely read in a famous mag, to precipitate such actions against a parent.

She'll be emancipated soon, by the age of 18. I hope she has other family members to rely on for support.
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SomeAuthorGirl
12/14/09

In reply to Court-Ordered
This makes me really sad. I hope Frances Bean just gets herself emancipated, she tweets* like she has a decent head on her shoulders.

*Yes, I realize that a decent tweet does not an adult make, but still...
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KookyMonster
12/14/09

@SomeAuthorGirl: I was thinking the same thing...like "well it's ok because Frances seems really grounded and mature." Then I realized I read way too much Tweet Beat.
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MargaretMoony
12/14/09

In reply to Court-Ordered
I'm just surprised that this hasn't happened sooner.
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greensandbeans
12/14/09

@MargaretMoony: It did happen once before -- a few years ago after Love tried to break into an ex's house and OD'd on Oxycontin a few hours later.
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MargaretMoony
12/14/09

@greensandbeans: Ahhh, well makes sense!
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hollygirl
12/14/09

@MargaretMoony: she was also removed at birth due to CL's talking about using during pregnancy in Vanity Fair.
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Penny
12/14/09

In reply to Court-Ordered
I thought that was Lohan.

At least FBC is nearly a legal adult.
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OldEnough2BYourMama
12/14/09

@Penny: FBC is probably a lot more worldly than my 17 year old daughter but they still need a parent/guardian/voice of reason at that age.
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Penny
12/14/09

@OldEnough2BYourMama: Yes, but what I mean is that at least she's not, like, 7.
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OldEnough2BYourMama
12/14/09

@Penny: Good point. She will be making many of her own decisions when she's off to college in a year.
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CurtCole
12/14/09

In reply to Court-Ordered
I know she's probably bat-shit crazy, and most of America hates her, but I still wish she'd manage to get her act together and makes some awesome music again. Live Through This and Celebrity Skin defined portions of my life.
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Bunsen Honeydew
12/14/09

@CurtCole: I co-sign that. I adore you Courtney, please get better.
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otherginger
12/14/09

@Bunsen Honeydew: Thirding the Courtney Love love. I also think for the short time she was doing it seriously she was a pretty good actress (just rewatched Larry Flynt movie).
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HarpMadness
12/14/09

@CurtCole: I agree. I also wonder sometimes how people would view her if she were a man or even if she HADN'T married Cobain and had just been a musician in her own right without the whole rock/celebrity couple thing.

I think she's got talent. It's too bad other aspects of her life have overshadowed that and I would LOVE it if she could turn it around.
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Tchotchke
12/14/09

@CurtCole: Live Through This was a turning point for me as a kid. It made me realize that a girl didn't have to relegate herself to being a sexed-up poptart, but could actually play with the boys, so to speak. At about 10 years old, that was huge to me. She has talent and she's smart as a whip, but she's also an addict and suffers from many personal demons--and that's why it's so sad.
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BlackFrancine
12/14/09

@CurtCole: I love her, too. Live Through This is still one of my all-time favorite albums. And years ago, when Napster was first being sued by Metallica or whoever, I read an article by Love on Salon.com on file trading and copyright law in music--it was so cogent and insightful that I've sworn to defend her to the death. I'm just sad that she's so troubled.
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CurtCole
12/14/09

@Tchotchke: Isn't it wonderful how music can have such a profound effect on people?
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Tchotchke
12/14/09

@CurtCole: Absolutely. I just wish there were more lovely ladies in music these days (of the non-poptart variety). It seems like we only get one or two every decade, or so.
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FashionZebra
12/14/09

@CurtCole: I kind of end up feeling like that for all the celebrities who end up in train wreck situations due to drugs or alcohol or something else unfortunate. I just want to give them a hug and a cheery sweater vest and tell them that they can pull it together and be positive role models!
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coffee_and_lipstick
12/14/09

@CurtCole: Also, can I point out that if she were a male rock star this probably wouldn't even be in the press.

Yeah, she's smart, creative, and nuts. And self-destructive. She is what she is and I will probably be a Courtney Love Apologist until the day I see her skin live puppies on stage or something.
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Scout
12/14/09

@Tchotchke: I'm old so, for me, it was Joan Jett BUT I remember hearing "Miss World", on KROQ, the day Kurt killed himself (with the DJ saying that the Hole album would be released the following week) and I knew I was going to get it immediately because her voice was so awesome.

Say what you want about who wrote what, Courtney "owned" every song and was a Rock Star in league with the "big boys".
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BlackFrancine
12/14/09

@Tchotchke: Every time--and I mean every single time-- I listen to Live Through This, I start fantasizing about learning to play guitar and starting a band. I discovered (or started paying attention to) Hole a little late, but I'm sure if I had bought and listened to Live Through This when it came out (when I was 14, I think), I would know how to play guitar now. So basically, it did the same thing for me. I just wish I'd found it sooner.
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Tchotchke
12/14/09

@Scout: Her voice can peel paint off of walls--and that's a compliment! She created a distinctive style that remains a (controversial) fashion hallmark of the grunge era, and was great in a few movies.

Besides, just about every book I have ever read on Kurt Cobain refutes the idea that he wrote anything on LTT, aside from perhaps making suggestions. I'm a huge Nirvana fan, and I like Courtney, but there are very distinct compositional differences between the two. Also, "Miss World" is my favorite song on that album! :-)
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Scout
12/14/09

@BlackFrancine: I learned how to play "Doll Parts" because it was the easiest. So my entire repertoire consists of "Karma Police" and "Doll Parts" and that is it.

i'm lazy
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Scout
12/14/09

@Tchotchke: Now I've made my bed, I'll lie in it, I've made my bed, I'll die in it.

sigh

guttural, animalistic, primal scream

I know Brody of The Distillers has a similar voice but I prefer the original of most things.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
12/14/09

@CurtCole: It's hard out here for a Hole fan. Her music still resonates for me. Have you heard the America's Sweetheart album?
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
12/14/09

@otherginger: She's great in Julie Johnson. I don't know how widely released that one was. I saw it years ago at a gay and lesbian film festival.
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CurtCole
12/14/09

@Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole: Yes, while I didn't like it as much, I still appreciated some of the songs, "Hold on To Me" especially.
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otherginger
12/14/09

@Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole: Never saw and will check out. Also, I get a kick out of seeing "used up old slutbag on the pole responded to your post" on the site.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
12/14/09

@otherginger: Lili Taylor's in it too!
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judgingamy
12/14/09

@CurtCole: Yeah this is a disappointment. The woman is very smart and talented. I'm not relishing in this gossip one bit.
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Grrrlfriend
12/15/09

@CurtCole: I've been a fan of Miss Love for 12 years now. She has disappointed me many times. But I've never been through the tragedies that she has been through (and not just Kurt's death) and I have no idea how I would handle all of that either. And, of course I feel sad for Frances. This seems a bit weird and I'm wondering if it was a mutual agreement of sorts because last I had read , Courtney was still very close to Kurt's mom and his sister. I hope Frances is happy with the decision.

There was an interview with CLove in last month's Rolling Stone about her new album. She seemed pretty lucid but also said something about a dispute with Eric Erlandson over the name, "Hole." So, apparently, she's fighting with him as well. It always seemed to me that he was a kind and stable anchor on her crazy ship.

Have you ever listened to "My Body the Hand Grenade?" Lots of great live versions of singles and some really great B-sides. Hole's MTV Unplugged is awesome, too. "Season of the Witch!"
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CurtCole
12/15/09

@Grrrlfriend: I'll be sure to check those out! Thanks!
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wtfox?!
12/08/09

In reply to Political Parties
Is anyone else seriously irritated by the smile on her face? Like, how many gallons of delusion-juice do you need to think that gatecrashing the White House is the most awesome thing EVAR LOL?
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curiousgeorgiana
12/08/09

@wtfox?!: If she was a fraternity/ sorority pledge it would have a greater shot at being charming.

An adult? Not so much.
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Questioning Everything
12/08/09

@wtfox?!: I hear ya. These people are scary pathological .

At first, I misread the posting and though that Anna was also calling Rep. King a fame whore....which he also kinda is.
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