I must be missing something here, because I see the assertion in the body of the post and in the comments - how did Operation Rescue contribute to the George Tiller murder? I thought it was a lone nut.
Also they protested outside of his office every day and called him a mass murderer (even in response to his death), acting as a freaking homing signal for unstable people with violent tendencies, access to weapons, and God Complexes.
@Perhaps Not: short answer: Using eliminationist language against a person every day for twenty years may, unsurprisingly, encourage someone to eliminate them.
@Perhaps Not: His murderer consulted with Operation Rescue's high-ranking members, included a convicted abortion-clinic bomber. Nor was this his first attempt; he tried to break into the clinic the weekend before Tiller's murder.
@Perhaps Not: Cheryll Sullenger, who was convicted---along with her husband---of conspiring to blow up abortion clinics. She initially lied to the cops about Roeder, then finally came clean.
Roeder has an extensive anti-government and I'd say, anti-liberal, anti-humanitarian history. He's a perfect example of how these militia guys aren't just anti-gov't--they're anti-woman as well. It's like...he didn't do anything of note with his life but by God at least he could get a woman pregnant...or something like that. His was and is a life of the lowest common denominator, of defining one's self of...."At least I'm not....." insert group name here.
@Perhaps Not: Freedom of speech has nothing to do with this (though perhaps it should), since the government has done absolutely fucking nothing to infringe upon their freedom to speak.
If a group dubs someone "Dr. Killer", publishes all their personal information, and calls them a mass murderer who should be aborted, it is no surprise that someone might take this as instructive, and kill him. I'm not sure how you can call that nonsense.
@SunburnedCounsel: Murder is the fault of the murderer, period. If you "take as instructive" a non-imperative sentence addressed to the general public, you are schizophrenic. The only valid thing you've quoted here is the statement that Tiller "should be aborted," which is no worse than any number of things that people say about Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. I'll grant you that there's a large percentage of crazies on the right, especially when it comes to abortion, but it's totally wrong to paint this as a conspiracy.
@Perhaps Not: She conspired to do so, was convicted, and had numerous contacts with a guy who harassed and eventually murdered a doctor. Conspiracy to bomb covers a wide range of behavior, up to and including procuring bomb-making material. Not exactly a misunderstood Girl Scout.
@Perhaps Not: "Which is no worse than anything people say about Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh."
Oh, bullshit.
You are being incredibly intellectually dishonest if you dare to imply that Limbaugh or Beck face anything compared to what liberals, etc., etc., face in this country. Tell me, how often did the KKK face bombings, murders, state-sanctioned harassment and torture?
It's not like the anti-abortion movement has devoted years to perfecting their harassment techniques, up to and including murder, terrorism, and various other acts intended to intimidate or subdue people. Yeah, uh huh. Jane Fonda is going to be knocking on your damned door and demanding you sign that petition.
The idea that murder is the responsibility of the murderer alone is simplistic to say the least. Conspiracy to commit murder, aiding and abbetting, accessory before and after the fact----these legal terms and realities destroy the notion that murder is the act of one person.
Right wing assholes kill people. Left wing assholes kill SUVs and break windows.
@SunburnedCounsel: I suspect it's a viewpoint impervious to fairness and honesty. It wasn't just "Dr. Killer"---it was years of harassment, nuisance lawsuits, terroristic threats, burglaries, harassment of workers and workers' children, the publication of workers' addresses along with veiled threats, the rejoicing at the murders and assaults committed by the likes of Paul Hill and Shelley Shannon, and the incitement to murder committed by people like Neal Horseley.
Bill O'Reilly made it a point to spread the most grotesque lies about Tiller and has blood on his hands, morally, if not legally. The campaign waged against abortion providers in this country---and by extension, against womens' rights----is an example of sheer hatred.
@Ginmar Rienne: Exactly. I can't make someone believe in systemic behavior, or the power of culture, or hell, the power of words, if they are being willfully obtuse. Saying "murder is the fault of the murderer. Period." is a handy way to let a whole lot of people who perpetuate hate off the hook.
@Ginmar Rienne: Lordy, take a correction, would you? You said "convicted abortion-clinic bomber." You were mistaken. At what point did I say she was Mother Teresa?
@Ginmar Rienne: Yeah, and if there was anything approaching "conspiracy to commit murder" here I would certainly take your opinion more seriously, but there doesn't appear to be. I don't mean to be disingenuous, but I'm interested in the facts, whether or not they support the behavior of people who share my convictions. In Operation Rescue, there's clearly a culture of hatred and a lot of vile language being tossed around, but in point of fact the laws about conspiracy to commit murder are designed expressly to distinguish hateful people who say, "Man, I wish he was dead" from de facto murderers who say "Go kill that guy." Because it is not a crime to be hateful and say horrible things.
And honestly, "Right wing assholes kill people. Left wing assholes kill SUVs and break windows?" Do you seriously think that? As ridiculous as it was when everybody jumped on Obama for being connected to Bill Ayers, the Weather Underground was not a joke. [en.wikipedia.org]
Granted, this was a while ago, but there are much more extreme groups outside the US - FARC (in South America) is horrible, the Basque nationalists have killed something like 800 people in Spain, and the list goes on.
I'm sure it's comfortable for you to lump everybody even slightly more conservative than you in with the Klan, but fortunately that is not the way political alignment works. Obviously.
@SunburnedCounsel: This is so hugely passive-aggressive and catty and makes such disgusting assumptions about me personally that I'm horrifying myself by even dignifying it with a response, but "the power of culture?" Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, Michael Medved, and any number of other right-wing pundits would wholeheartedly agree with you. We should blame everyone who encourages bad behavior for the behavior itself, yes, definitely. String 'em up, and start with Martin Scorsese for shooting Ronald Reagan!
@Perhaps Not: Dude, I'm not interested in wasting my time on somebody who so strenuously avoids any sort of media at all and has managed to ignore the development of sarcasm as well. If I thought for a second you'd be intellectually honest enough to put up a pretense, I'd waste the pixels, but....It's obvious you've got your mind made up and nothing will change it. Ta ta!
@Ginmar Rienne: You've used hyperbole, not sarcasm in that case. Wikipedia has a sister site, Wiktionary, too! Isn't the internet wonderful? This is sarcasm. As is this: [en.wiktionary.org]
But I thank you from the bottom of my heart for avoiding me and I trust that you will continue to do so in future. Good luck with all forms of the your favorite phrase "intellectually dishonest," which appears to mean "not in total agreement with everything I say."
@Ginmar Rienne: I mean, again, you're factually mistaken on a number of points. I'm sorry for your sake that Wikipedia has the right answers, too, but it does. If my using it makes me lazy, what does that say about your not even bothering to use it or anything else to research your arguments?
@SunburnedCounsel: That's very gracious of you. You may be right about our not sharing enough vocabulary, but I hope not. I would like to be able to honestly discuss (among other things) abortion and the problems around it on both sides of the political divide without e-screaming, but that rarely seems possible. Jezebel is frequently a good place to engage with bright people who hold opinions that are A) extremely influential, at least high-culturally and intellectually and B) deeply out of sync with my own beliefs. At the very least, I frequently find myself able to understand their arguments better, which is very useful and has occasionally changed my mind. Engaging with more liberal minds than my own certainly helped me form a progressive opinion on gay marriage, for example.
Operation Rescue: You know how you could have prevented 'LeRoy Carhart From Taking Tiller's Place As The Nation's #1 Late-Term Abortionist'? Not contributing to the death of Dr. Tiller.
@SarahMC: God. This is what bothers me possibly the most about their logic. They know they would have no ground to stand on if they came out and said what they really think, which is that women who get abortions are baby-killers, so instead they pitch "women as victims" of abortion doctors. Because the doctor is just running around, stabbing pregnant women in the stomach, right?
What about the crime of obstructing citizens of their rightful access to constitutionally allowed medical procedures that may very well be vital to said woman's survival?
Oh, that knocked up whore isn't nearly as important as the innocent life she's carrying? Until that innocent life gets knocked up herself. THEN her life is diminshed based on another potential little soldier.
You make me sick. We should declare war on this lot of pustulant boils on the asshole of the universe.
@BAngieB: Thank you! I was like... where is there language against the intial violence that this poor woman suffered that led to her needing an abortion? And, if she was raped, why did she need a late-term abortion? Why didn't she have resources available to her to make that decision earlier? There are bigger fish to fry here, people!
Jesus, "abortion mill"? Ugh. I hate extreme anti-choice language.
Thank you Dr. Carhart, for sacrificing your ability to live a normal life and risking your own safety to perform a much needed and much appreciated service to women in need. I wish there were more like you and that all the extra precautions weren't necessary to ensure your safety.
@BAngieB: And yet, I have heard some of these idiots argue against abortion because "if it was legal then, Mary probably would have gotten one, she was pregnant and unmarried!" So maybe they would!
@yvanehtnioj: Whaaaaaaaat? But dude, God knocked her up with her consent. And then went and told her fiance, "yo, I'm the babydaddy, so don't beat her". Anyways being betrothed was pretty much the same thing as being married anyways so everyone probably assumed the baby was Joseph's.
I am confused by this argument.
@lalie (apologetic mess): You're confused because you're looking for logic. All you need to look for is Abortion = Killing Jesus. That's the whole point. Blergh.
@supersoygrrrl: She wasn't married when she conceived. (I love how I'm discussing this as though I think it actually happened.) In response to your second sentence: ZOMG GOD IS GAY!!
"Your gift will immediately be put to work where the need is greatest. Currently NAF has several projects that are directly impacting the safety and security of providers as well as ensuring that women can continue to access safe, quality abortion care."
Here's a list of what you can direct your gift towards:
-NAF Hotline
-NAF Rachel Falls Patient Assistance Fund
-Security and Clinic Defense
-Abortion Access/Clinicians for Choice
-Patient Partnership
-Pro-Choice Advocacy
-International Support
and the description: "NAF's security experts are available to our members 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for emergency support. When a crisis occurs, we send emergency response teams to clinic sites to provide immediate, on-the-ground assistance. We perform security assessments at the clinics and homes of our members, and train clinic staff in practical, day-to-day procedures that could save their lives. We also meet with key law enforcement officials to educate them about the security needs of our members, and urge them to investigate and prosecute anti-choice criminal activities."
Hopefully this is what you were looking for.
(I am not affiliated with this organization but I remember reading about it. A quick google search + copypasta et voila!)
Dr. Carhart gave the eulogy for Dr. Tiller at the interfaith memorial here in DC. He is an incredible human being. PBS interviewed him and Dr. Hern for its "Abortion Providers Under Siege" segment: [www.pbs.org]
Also, just a note on language: "late-term abortion" has no medical meaning -- it's another way anti-choicers tie abortion to the idea of a baby (by associating it with birth). The correct term is simply "late abortion." NPR has the explanation: [www.npr.org]
"Doctors refer to term as the end of a pregnancy, when a pregnancy is over and baby is ready to be born. So, late-term would actually mean after a pregnancy is complete - after 39 weeks. So, in fact, doctors who talk about abortion later in pregnancy simply talk about late abortions."
"Americans may support abortion rights, but even 40 years after Roe, we don't talk about it like other medical procedures."
THIS. Right after the assassination of Dr. Tiller, I was in the car discussing it with Mr. Rex's (extremely liberal) father and our toddler-age daughter was in the backseat. FIL Rex opened his mouth to say something, then looked at my daughter and stopped. What he was going to say was simply the word "abortion". I was stunned that he considered the mere word too offensive to say in front of her, as if it were an obscenity. How can we expect abortion to ever be de-stigmatized if even those of us who are firmly pro-choice are hesitant to even use the word?
I'm tired of hearing about how the bloody mechanics of an abortion are being treated like some dirty little secret that pro-choicers are keeping from themselves. Any medical procedure inside the human body is going to be gory and scary, especially to non-medical professionals. (My God, hearing about my sister's emergency c-section haunts me to this day.) Fashion magazines don't get this graphic in their many many articles about plastic surgery. Does Sports Illustrated describe exactly how all those sports injuries are corrected? It bothers me that these writers include these scenes when articles about different kinds of medical issues do not. Tumor removal, brain surgery, abortion: all pretty nasty, all very necessary.
12/04/09
12/04/09
Why favor premarriage counseling for everyone, when it's easier to be against marriage for homosexuals?
Why have a serious conversation about corporate power and job losses when it's easier to bitch about brown people?
In short, any coward can say NO. It takes courage to say YES.
12/04/09
12/04/09
Also they protested outside of his office every day and called him a mass murderer (even in response to his death), acting as a freaking homing signal for unstable people with violent tendencies, access to weapons, and God Complexes.
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
Roeder has an extensive anti-government and I'd say, anti-liberal, anti-humanitarian history. He's a perfect example of how these militia guys aren't just anti-gov't--they're anti-woman as well. It's like...he didn't do anything of note with his life but by God at least he could get a woman pregnant...or something like that. His was and is a life of the lowest common denominator, of defining one's self of...."At least I'm not....." insert group name here.
12/07/09
If a group dubs someone "Dr. Killer", publishes all their personal information, and calls them a mass murderer who should be aborted, it is no surprise that someone might take this as instructive, and kill him. I'm not sure how you can call that nonsense.
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
Oh, bullshit.
You are being incredibly intellectually dishonest if you dare to imply that Limbaugh or Beck face anything compared to what liberals, etc., etc., face in this country. Tell me, how often did the KKK face bombings, murders, state-sanctioned harassment and torture?
It's not like the anti-abortion movement has devoted years to perfecting their harassment techniques, up to and including murder, terrorism, and various other acts intended to intimidate or subdue people. Yeah, uh huh. Jane Fonda is going to be knocking on your damned door and demanding you sign that petition.
The idea that murder is the responsibility of the murderer alone is simplistic to say the least. Conspiracy to commit murder, aiding and abbetting, accessory before and after the fact----these legal terms and realities destroy the notion that murder is the act of one person.
Right wing assholes kill people. Left wing assholes kill SUVs and break windows.
12/07/09
Bill O'Reilly made it a point to spread the most grotesque lies about Tiller and has blood on his hands, morally, if not legally. The campaign waged against abortion providers in this country---and by extension, against womens' rights----is an example of sheer hatred.
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
And honestly, "Right wing assholes kill people. Left wing assholes kill SUVs and break windows?" Do you seriously think that? As ridiculous as it was when everybody jumped on Obama for being connected to Bill Ayers, the Weather Underground was not a joke.
[en.wikipedia.org]
Granted, this was a while ago, but there are much more extreme groups outside the US - FARC (in South America) is horrible, the Basque nationalists have killed something like 800 people in Spain, and the list goes on.
I'm sure it's comfortable for you to lump everybody even slightly more conservative than you in with the Klan, but fortunately that is not the way political alignment works. Obviously.
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
My bias is reality. Your leans rather more rightward. Own it.
12/07/09
[en.wiktionary.org]
But I thank you from the bottom of my heart for avoiding me and I trust that you will continue to do so in future. Good luck with all forms of the your favorite phrase "intellectually dishonest," which appears to mean "not in total agreement with everything I say."
12/07/09
12/07/09
And if you'd stop saying stupid shit, maybe I could resist the temptation, but you keep saying the most irresistibly stupid crap one could imagine.
Oh, look, a conservative bingo, too! Let me guess: you troll feminist sites, whining about censorship and syncophants and hive minds, too? So cute!
12/07/09
12/08/09
12/08/09
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/04/09
Oh, that knocked up whore isn't nearly as important as the innocent life she's carrying? Until that innocent life gets knocked up herself. THEN her life is diminshed based on another potential little soldier.
You make me sick. We should declare war on this lot of pustulant boils on the asshole of the universe.
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/04/09
Or, HELL, I killed her. Bring it.
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/04/09
Thank you Dr. Carhart, for sacrificing your ability to live a normal life and risking your own safety to perform a much needed and much appreciated service to women in need. I wish there were more like you and that all the extra precautions weren't necessary to ensure your safety.
12/04/09
12/04/09
#idiotswithmegaphones
12/04/09
I am confused by this argument.
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/04/09
12/05/09
[www.prochoice.org]
"Your gift will immediately be put to work where the need is greatest. Currently NAF has several projects that are directly impacting the safety and security of providers as well as ensuring that women can continue to access safe, quality abortion care."
Here's a list of what you can direct your gift towards:
-NAF Hotline
-NAF Rachel Falls Patient Assistance Fund
-Security and Clinic Defense
-Abortion Access/Clinicians for Choice
-Patient Partnership
-Pro-Choice Advocacy
-International Support
The URL for clinic security specifically: [www.prochoice.org]
and the description: "NAF's security experts are available to our members 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for emergency support. When a crisis occurs, we send emergency response teams to clinic sites to provide immediate, on-the-ground assistance. We perform security assessments at the clinics and homes of our members, and train clinic staff in practical, day-to-day procedures that could save their lives. We also meet with key law enforcement officials to educate them about the security needs of our members, and urge them to investigate and prosecute anti-choice criminal activities."
Hopefully this is what you were looking for.
(I am not affiliated with this organization but I remember reading about it. A quick google search + copypasta et voila!)
12/05/09
08/17/09
Also, just a note on language: "late-term abortion" has no medical meaning -- it's another way anti-choicers tie abortion to the idea of a baby (by associating it with birth). The correct term is simply "late abortion." NPR has the explanation:
[www.npr.org]
"Doctors refer to term as the end of a pregnancy, when a pregnancy is over and baby is ready to be born. So, late-term would actually mean after a pregnancy is complete - after 39 weeks. So, in fact, doctors who talk about abortion later in pregnancy simply talk about late abortions."
08/17/09
THIS. Right after the assassination of Dr. Tiller, I was in the car discussing it with Mr. Rex's (extremely liberal) father and our toddler-age daughter was in the backseat. FIL Rex opened his mouth to say something, then looked at my daughter and stopped. What he was going to say was simply the word "abortion". I was stunned that he considered the mere word too offensive to say in front of her, as if it were an obscenity. How can we expect abortion to ever be de-stigmatized if even those of us who are firmly pro-choice are hesitant to even use the word?
08/17/09
08/17/09
08/17/09
08/17/09