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Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
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sciencerules
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
I can't count how many times I heard that girls couldn't or shouldn't do science or math in elementary, middle, and high school. Even to this day, my parents and community back home could not give two shits about what I do, because I'm a woman who's just marking time till I get married and pop out some babies.

Then, going to college in a very supportive physics department but with classmates who were predominantly male and predominantly unsupportive, then switching to biology only to be derided for opting out of the "hardcore" physics and into the "girly" biology....I am tired of this argument, and delighted to see some research that upholds my experience--that success in math and the sciences is due more to work, like all success, than innate ability, and that men and women are both equally capable of doing so.
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brinkswomanship
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
The part about negative stereotypes affecting performance is so incredible. Remind a woman before a test that she is female, and she'll perform worse. How do you even turn something like that around? Dammit, we should be proud of being women!
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daisen-in
06/02/09

@brinkswomanship: The seriousness of "stereotype threat" was actually first discovered in a study about race and performance in the 60's, although it holds true for gender stereotypes as well. It really is an incredibly poisonous thing!
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JP Meyer
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
How elite is elite?

I realize this is an anecdote, but when I took AP calculus AB, the class was about 75% girls. AB was the highest level math course at my high school (and was taught by a woman!) However, we had two boys in my grade that were way above this. One took the BC test on a whim and easily got a 5, and another was taking differential equations at the local college.

[www.marginalrevolution.com]
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daisen-in
06/02/09

@JP Meyer: Well, if 25% of the class was only two boys, then I'd say you can't draw many conclusions from a class of only 8 students total- small number statistics and all that.
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JP Meyer
06/02/09

@daisen-in: It was more like 15/4, but yeah hence my "this is an anecdote."

The Marginal Revolution article still remains, however.
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daisen-in
06/02/09

@JP Meyer: I made a comment upthread about the variance argument, particularly with respect to IQ. The assumption that higher IQ correlates with success in science (specifically, innovativeness and creativity), an argument which Pinker and Summers frequently cite, was tested and proven false by Terman years ago. He followed something like 1,500 of the brightest students in the state of California for more than 30 years, and found that the students that enjoyed the most academic success as adults were those who lied more in the IQ ~ 120 range, well within the area where men and women are equally likely to reside. Extremely high IQ score did not correlate with innovativeness or creativity, much to Terman's surprise. Similarly, the assumption that high SAT math scores (where boys historically have dominated, though that gap is closing) correlate with success in math and science- obvious as it may appear- was also proven false. This is a point frequently made by scientists like Ben Barres against the Larry Summer hypothesis.
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JP Meyer
06/02/09

@daisen-in: The studies regarding variance don't use IQ, though. They use all sorts of different kinds of tests, since IQ is a problematic measurement to begin with.
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daisen-in
06/02/09

@JP Meyer: Fair enough. My point is that the basic assumption is problematic: that larger variance in men's science and math performance explains the huge gender gaps in science. It's an assumption taken for granted in that article you linked to (which directly predicted gender ratios in science departments from the variances)- but it is untested.

To the contrary, in the case of IQ, the assumption has been proven totally wrong- and it's also wrong in the case of SAT math scores over 700 as well, which many folks also believe a priori correlates with success in math careers.
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cellydevil
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
I'm a math teacher and I've been involved with several programs created to increase the number of girls in engineering and math. Girls in the US tend to outperform boys in the elementary grades, but it's when Algebra skills start to be introduced around the 8th grade that girls fall behind. There's alot of research that shows it's the way the problems areclassroom based rather than subject matter. Around 8th grade girls are more likely to have a male teacher, or a teacher who teacher procedure over meaning. Male teachers in math are more likely to say just do it, while female teachers are more likely to take the time and explain why a problem works. Girls need meaning-literal meaning, more than boys for comphrehension. There's also research that shows boys will tend to push for a more procedure style of teaching, and the girls will not feel comfortable enough to ask questions. And then begins the culture of girls feeling "dumb" in math and not persuing math related subjects. Several schools are trying to seperate the girls from the boys in math, and finding doing such improves scores dramatically.
I always have at least one female student who breaks my heart each year. She's usually perfectly fine in her skills, but has no confidence. Does well--or even outperforms--on homework, but give her a test and she bombs. I try to build confidence, but it can be so ingrained.
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the dodo, the cuckoo, and the nene
06/02/09

@cellydevil: This sounds exactly like what happened to me. I was a top student in math throughout elementary school. It wasn't until I began algebra in 7th grade that everything came crashing down. I had a male math teacher in 6th grade (pre-algebra) and I always felt uncomfortable in his class. I was a shy student and he was a loud teacher who did problems on the board and assumed everyone understood. I think that is what began my downfall.And yeah, I always did well on homework, but when it came time to take the tests, I did terribly. I never got worse than a B in math, but I always felt so inadequate and intimidated by all of the boys who seemed to pick up the concepts so quickly. I entered college as a chem major and switched to history within 2 months once I realized that it was pretty much all math. I am ok with that, as I am now happy in my career, but I wonder what would have happened if I had stuck with the chemistry.
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PreposterousHypothesis
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
I think math is an area where the quality of the teacher is extremely important, because you're dealing with explaining something 1) very detailed 2) by its nature, theoretical, especially in the higher levels 3) not something that's totally every day.

Probably every child reads something every day, a lot of times per day. Most other subjects (history, English, even foreign language) are based on reading comprehension. You probably do some basic addition/subtraction every day, but that's the extent of everyday math. For the limited amount of exposure you get, you need a teacher who can very clearly and effectively communicate math concepts.
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emilyanne
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
Hmm because the most recent OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-Operation and Development ) Survey published last week found that the UK is one of only six OECD countries where girls do worse than boys at both maths and science and that only 10 per cent of girls will take either subject past the age of 15 (GCSE level where they have to do them). In fact that survey argued that culturally the UK is terrible at encouraging girls to do maths or science subjects and is facing a serious crisis in education at higher level because of it.

So er you can find the stats to fit any argument?
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emilyanne
06/02/09

@emilyanne: actually this is odd because I then read the link and it's the same study but the thing is I've seen the published report and it clearly states that girls in the UK underperform and attributes this to cultural issues. However what it does say is that if you are a girl doing maths in the UK you will match your peers BUT very few girls in the UK er do maths. Am i making any sense here - it just seems to me that to make a point that blog has taken the UK stat at least out of context.
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Casquivana
06/02/09

@emilyanne: You do make sense. What I got from it was that female students in the UK underperform due to lack of encouragement, etc. But the small number of them that manage to overcome that perform as well as their male counterpart.
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Glitterbug (likes life shaken, not stirred)
06/02/09

@emilyanne: As always, it depends on where you are. At my old school, I'd say around 75% of the girls (it was all-girls) did maths AS or A level (as in, past 16). At my Sixth Form, which is about 75% boys, you're lucky to have two girls in a maths class (I don't do it but that's because I like biology and history/english lit). I think it's telling that in the predominantly male environment, more of the girls stick to stereotypically "female" subjects.
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emilyanne
06/02/09

@Casquivana: yay exactly. And from my own personal experience this is true - there is as much of a cultural divide in the UK as in the US where maths and science subjects are concerned. And it's believed to be worsening - certainly 10-15 years ago far more girls went on to read maths at university than do so now.
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emilyanne
06/02/09

@Glitterbug (likes life shaken, not stirred): true although i was at an all girls school where barely anyone did maths past GCSE. So it probably is as specialist as it depends on the strengths of the teachers at the school as much as anything else. The thing i do remember though, and this has changed, is that the reason a lot of people at the all girls school dropped maths wasn't because they hated it but rather because you were discouraged from cross-pollinating your a-levels ie they didn't like people doing maths and history and english say or maths and latin and french. There was no reason for this ever given but my sister for example switched schools because she wanted to do maths, art and latin and wasn't allowed.
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zombies.like.lattés.too
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
I can only speak for myself, but my problem with math in grade through high school was word problems. That and what I viewed to be a lack of practical application. Nobody would satisfactorily answer my questions as to why I had to learn things like the rate at which a ladder angled at a certain degree would slide down a wall.

It is a downward spiral for those of us who aren't confident with math. If you don't master the basic concepts, you can't build on them and learn more math.

A shaky mathematical foundation compounded by (at least for me) a lack of interest in the subject matter (freakin' word problems!) led me farther and farther down the rabbit hole...
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Flackette Goes Retro
06/02/09

@zombies.like.lattés.too: I loved word problems! They didn't have one set way to solve them, so you could use whatever method worked for you. Regular calculations, on the other hand = tedious. That was my downfall, as I triumphed in Algebra but hit a wall when I got to Calculus.
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the dodo, the cuckoo, and the nene
06/02/09

@zombies.like.lattés.too: I hated word problems too. They seemed completely irrelevant and a waste of time. I hated staring at the paragraph and the empty white space below it...I was never a bad math student, mostly Bs, but in comparison to my other subjects, which were a breeze, I felt I was stupid at math, and didn't care to try. So by the time I reached senior year of high school, I was through with math. I ended up taking Calculus in college, and I actually loved it because for the first time, the numbers and graph seemed to represent something real!

Of course, that was 8 years ago, and I haven't taken a math course since. Nor do I plan on taking any.
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TheFormerJuneBronson
06/02/09

@zombies.like.lattés.too: I feel the same way about application. It doesn't even have to be practical application. I just want to know what things are used for. I ate up a book about cryptography, and I love the show Numbers. I just want to know that what I'm learning is going somewhere. I still don't really know what Algebra II was for. And no, "to prepare for trig" is not an adequate answer. I remember wondering if all the other kids knew and I somehow wasn't paying attention when it was explained. I know exactly what geometry is for, and I was always good at it. Still use it.
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zombies.like.lattés.too
06/02/09

@TheFormerJuneBronson: Geometry I probably would have liked if my teacher hadn't been terrible and using a 70's style feel-good grope-your-way-through-shapes teaching style.

You know those pieces of wax paper that come between frozen hamburger patties? They're called Patty Paper, and each is a 5.25" square.

This was THE learning staple of my geometry class. I shit you not. It was all about folding this stupid piece of wax paper to learn about triangles. It was just awful...
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TheFormerJuneBronson
06/02/09

@zombies.like.lattés.too: OMG. How can he possibly have thought that was the end-all-be-all of math instruction? It's no wonder we have some issues here.

I suspect I date my issues with math, other than the unfortunate junior high incident, to Algebra II because of my teacher that year. I had a woman, which seems like it could have been good, but she clearly thought I was stupid. I wouldn't have put in an extra effort to understand anything for her.
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Flackette Goes Retro
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
I wonder too how many girls are good at math, but for whatever reasons - cultural or otherwise - choose not to pursue it. I was actually pretty good at math, but knew I didn't want a career in the sciences so I quit taking it as soon as possible to concentrate on history and lit. If my high school had required me to take math beyond Algebra II and geometry (which I finished in my freshman year, because I had been tracked into accelerated classes) maybe I would retain more of it today. As it was, it just wasn't as interesting to me as other things, and for me it was about interest, not ability.
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Flackette Goes Retro
06/02/09

@Flackette Goes Retro: (It's still hard for me to remember that I won the award for best Algebra II student that year, as I feel like I've lost at least half of what I knew at the time, just through lack of caring).
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Dodgergirl
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
This deals mostly on the problems of racist stereotypes, but it touches on the gender issues, too, and is a pretty interesting look at the issue: [blogs.wnyc.org]
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Triana Orpheus
06/02/09

Yep. We're hurting ourselves by continuing to perpetuate the myth. The U.S. can't compete in academia anymore because instead of growing up to be physicists, kids want to grow up to be on American Idol.
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greengrey
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
I read something a while ago that said young girls are never interested in math because the way the problems (especially word problems) are stated. It's always about trains, tools, cars, football etc. They always make it about a "male dominated" activity. But on the other hand, there are girls who DO enjoy the more male dominated stuff. I'd like to see what would happen if it was more "neutral". I mean, I can't tell you how many times I had to solve a problem about Mike and his soccer team.
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Flackette Goes Retro
06/02/09

@greengrey: I think there's really something to that. My brother has Math Issues, I think bordering on a phobia. But if he has to figure out something like engine pressure, he can do it because he's interested in it. The reverse would probably apply to girls who are not interested in football or whatever.
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Ailanthus-altissima
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
Pinker and Elizabeth Spelke had a great debate about this. The idea isn't just that boys are on average better than girls at math, but that boys are able to achieve on a level girls can never reach. This means that the calculus enrollment means nothing to Pinker - what does mean something is PhDs, papers, and awards.

I am taking the qualifying exam for my graduate program tomorrow. The program is in biology, but with a heavy emphasis on mathematics. There are nearly equal numbers of men and women in the program, which is heartening. Right now, we still see a gap in many mathematical programs, but it's diminishing. Right now, women are still treated like academia is an "old boy's club," but that's fading. In a few years, Pinker and Summers won't have a leg to stand on in this debate.
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NefariousNewt
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
This is true in anything, not just mathematics. A girl's or boy's aptitude in any subject is based on the knowledge they are exposed to, the reinforcement of parents/teachers, and the perception of people in a field (science, math, language, history, etc.). There's no gross distortion of the brain between males and females that could make such a distinction based on gender alone.
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daisen-in
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
I've heard the IQ bell curve argument- that men are more likely to populate both the high and low IQ wings of the curve, which explains why men dominate the upper echelons of math and science- addressed another way, too. There is no demonstrated correlation between IQ and success in science and math at the high IQ-end- that assumption (that higher IQ=more likely to excel in science) is totally false. The arguments that men are biologically disposed to be better at math and science are typically riddled with poor assumptions and cherry-picked data.
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Paul.B.Dodd
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
Once again a redundant study proves that Asians are good at math and in the top 1% of Asian math wizards, women outperform men. Thanks for the great work. For once anecdotal evidence proves to be true.
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Fridge Hussy : Is finally heading back to uni!
06/02/09

@Paul.B.Dodd: Oy! I'll have you know that I'm shite at math!

Or maybe I'm the wrong kind of Asian for that stereotype? Or I'm not Asian enough for that sweeping generalisation?
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Breamworthy
06/02/09

@Paul.B.Dodd: The entire point of that study was that these things are cultural, not biological. It's not that "Asians are good at math", it's that asian culture doesn't characterize math ability as gendered, whereas North American culture does.

This is by no means specific to Asian culture. The same is true in France, for example. Do you have a racial stereotype you can pull out to explain that one?

I'm currently doing my PhD in math education, so I usually try to avoid topics like this lest I get too frustrated - but I can't let this go.
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hortense
06/02/09

In reply to Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology
"U.S. culture instills in students the belief that math talent is innate; if one is not naturally good at math, there is little one can do to become good at it."

Oh, this hurts, and is too familiar. "Don't worry, you're good in history and English" never took the sting out of being completely helpless at math for me.
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Sandicomm
06/02/09

@hortense: Same. I winced when I read that sentence. I almost failed algebra in middle school. I went to an all girls high school and aced high school calculus--I could have taken the AP, if I wanted to, but I very politely declined. In other words, based on my own personal experience and, I'm sure, many other Jezebelles' experiences, this study was unnecessary.
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vamusical
06/02/09

@hortense: I hate that. If math skill is innate, then explain why I was told how innately good I was at Math until I had a couple of lousy Math teachers, who began telling me what a dunce I was because I didn't get their teaching.
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PrarieMuffin
06/02/09

@Sandicomm: I did fail algebra in middle school, and no, the "well, you draw pretty" didn't help at all.

Other things that didn't help: a clearly sexist instructor who thought girls had no place in algebra class unless he was snapping their bra straps. Fun times.
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Cerridwen
06/02/09

@vamusical: Me, too! A run of terrible teachers and low self-esteem made me give up on math in high school. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy with the route my life and academic career took but I totally relate to this notion that we suppose mathematical skill to be innate. I probably could have rocked math but it was hard and history and literature came more easily to me. I sometimes wonder what path I would have ended up on had I pushed through that wall.
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BlackFrancine
06/02/09

@hortense: You know what's funny? I always thought I was terrible at math. But now I'm an editor at an educational publisher, and I specialize in math and science. Sometimes I kid and say that it's by default, because all my colleagues just suck more than me.

But really I think I underestimated myself all those years. Now that I've slowed down and looked more at the logic behind the math, it makes way more sense to me. I wonder if anyone ever took the time to explain it the way I needed it to explained, or if I just didn't pay attention because I was already determined that I didn't get it.
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Flackette Goes Retro
06/02/09

@BlackFrancine: I write a lot of science and tech articles now (I just interviewed a female mathematician this morning!). Sometimes I also wonder if I underestimated myself. I took advanced math and science in high school, but when I reached college I dropped it mostly out of a lack of interest. Now I kind of wonder if my brain could be re-opened to learn more of it.
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vamusical
06/02/09

@Cerridwen: I want to go back to all those crappy math teachers, the ones who implied I was slow, and show them my economics degree and tell them to suck it.
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Casquivana
06/02/09

@hortense: Oh, man. The "don't worry, you're good in history" argument was one of the things I heard most often through my school years.

And I remember I hated math simply because I always underperformed in it.

Then, in high school, I found a teacher who actually made a great effort to close the gap between the "good in math" and "good in history" kids. And it was truly shocking, as a "not good in math" student, to find out that I could actually perform really well in certain math areas (namely algebra and trigonometry). The sad part? That I still preferred to stay away from it. There's always this innate "fear of math", and a nagging feeling that you're better in other stuff anyway.
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emilyanne
06/02/09

@Casquivana: oh I had that. I not only failed maths GCSE, I failed arithmetic (becoming the only person at my all girls school ever to do so) and later on when i took GRE's i came in the bottom one per cent of the American nation on the maths part (NYU however still accepted me because a) I came in the top one per cent of the country for logic and verbal and b) they accepted that i hadn't done any maths for six years as you can drop it at 15 in the UK.)

But in reality I don't know if I was really terrible at maths - I liked algebra and was good at that but i was also allowed to drop out of the subject by my teachers. That said I was at an all girl's school so I think the issue wasn't girls v boys but rather that the teachers didn't care about anyone who was below the second stream.
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PaintedTrollop
06/02/09

@hortense:

My father was a banker, and told me throughout my childhood that I was bad at math. Dammit, I was! I failed remedial math in my sophomore year - so I never even got to algebra, because I quit school halfway through my junior year.

I got great grades in English and history...before the drugs, that is.
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Chamalla,barren crone
06/02/09

@hortense: When I taught I started a math club for third and fourth graders - most of the members were girls. Some of my first math clubbers just graduated and a handful are going on to major in math or science in college. (I taught in a district where only 25% of graduates go to college at all.) There are teachers out there fighting the good fight - but it's hard to do within the system. It's a shame one has to be a rogue educator to try and inspire girls to develop a passion for the sciences.
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Sorry, Larry Summers: Math Gender Gap Caused By Culture, Not Biology

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