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Gloria Explains It All

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Thealogian
07/11/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
Steinem didn't write "The Feminine Mystique" that was Betty Freidan! Fact check before you blather on for multiple paragraphs, Imjustnotthatintoyou.
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DexterHaven
07/11/09

@Thealogian: That point was made below, so maybe you should read through all comments before you call somebody out in a nasty way?
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Imjustnotthatintoyou
07/10/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
Okay. Please forgive me but I
m going to try to word this the best way I can so that hopefully the comment doesn't get misconstrued. Alright, here goes: I think Steinem is overrated. To me she is not my icon. She is the icon for formerly repressed, middle class white woman in America.

Yes, the Feminine Mystique was groundbreaking in the sense that it challenged society to look at woman as autonomous people, and that we could have other roles in life outside of motherhood. However groundbreaking that everything was at the time..in my opinion it didn't apply to the women of color, or working class women. A lot of black and working class women were already working outside of the home, and taking on roles that included, single mom, father, business owner, working mother.

Ugh.How can I explain this? It seems like sometimes the women's movement was really the white women's movement. From what my mother has taught me, the ideology of working outside your home, and having choices was something that a lot of black woman already knew and had been practicing for decades, even centuries.

I don't know maybe this is just me venting, sometimes I don't feel like women of color are always thought of when it comes to the modern feminist movement. I definitely see more discussion these days, especially at this site, about the uniquely sexist situations that women of color have to go through.... I don't know, I just lost my train of thought. If someone could help me hear, or if you understand the point I'm trying to make then please help me better articulate my point...
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Lin-Z [linguist on duty]
07/10/09

@Imjustnotthatintoyou: This has also been the complaint of many people in the "second wave" of feminism. We needed a new wave (not the one with Tears for Fears) to make feminism more inclusive. Steinem inspires some people, but not others.
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DexterHaven
07/10/09

@Imjustnotthatintoyou: You do know that she didn't write the Feminine Mystique, right? Anyway, if you're interested in reading a bit about some of the tensions in second-wave feminism around ideas of class, race and other things, I highly recommend In our Time: Memoir of a Revolution. It's a great read.
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whynotshesaid
07/10/09

@DexterHaven: I second that recommendation. Great book.
(I knew I loved one of my journalism professors when he told a story about interviewing Susan Brownmiller in the 70s and flirting with her.)
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Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
07/10/09

@Imjustnotthatintoyou: I think much of the problem lies in pinning the movement on one person's actions or words (and Steinem seems to have a problem with this, too). It's part of why some women are reluctant to call themselves feminist, or why we argue over who is and isn't a feminist. It's not a cult – there's room for debate and change.
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Imjustnotthatintoyou
07/12/09

@HeatherNumber1:

This. The fact that even in 2009 thw word feminist is still considered tantamount to a curse word is the problem. I wholeheartedly agree with you.
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MIXED
07/10/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
What a great point, that we need the label of "feminism" and "women's lib" in order to be able to express a new idea, a new point of view, a new lifestyle. Though it should be completely normalized in our society, it isn't yet so we need the words to express it and push it further.
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rednrowdy
07/10/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
On her relationship with her father:
I've only in adult life come to realize how important that was, that I actually saw a nurturing male…Even those of us who intellectualize about it and know how important it is that men become equal parents of children, if you've never experienced it, it's hard to have faith in it. In retrospect, I probably should have thanked my father for this, that he showed me that.

THIS. if only more men would get this. if there's anything that contributes more to the breakdown of the american family, it's not the notion of gay marriage...it's men who generation after generation have opted out of their parental responsibilities. as thankful as i am that i had a close relationship with my father, i'm sad that something like what i had is considered novel and unique when it shouldn't be in the first place.
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whynotshesaid
07/10/09

@rednrowdy: Word. The social ill I always heard about as the downfall of society was divorce, but I came out a good, solid person, and I think it's because I had both a mom and a dad who were awesome, loving and involved.
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kithkin
07/10/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
This interview ought to be played everywhere, the way Christmas music is from Halloween through December in supermarkets and drugstores, until it starts to seem natural. Maybe that will accelerate the advent of the revolution: a constant current of sound undermining the cult of masculinity. Now if only we could figure a way to get the dudes in charge to put this record on repeat.
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Flackette Goes Retro
07/10/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
I just sent the masculinity quote to my boyfriend, who is teaching a college course on constructions of masculinity this summer. I think it sums things up nicely.
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ChuffedLittleMuffin
07/10/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
Granted I don't have the full context for the quote, but that comment about world peace irks me, though I'm rather easily irked. I wouldn't argue that a cult of masculinity doesn't contribute to war, or that war is not gendered, but to reduce war to an issue of parenting is to get rid of a lot of other political, historical, economic factors that go into the production of violence and war. It seems to psychologize things and to make it all about gender, which it's clearly not. It also seems to rely on the idea that if women ran the world, we'd have no war.

There are also things that I agree with!
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Edited by ChuffedLittleMuffin at 07/10/09 2:32 PM

schweppes
07/10/09

@ChuffedLittleMuffin: I agree - - - - is the fact that there seems to be a correlation between war & men really a function of the fact that most countries in history have had leaders who are men and, regardless of the gender of the leader, countries fight. It just seems like a tired line to me.
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Diziet_Sma
07/10/09

@ChuffedLittleMuffin: Yeah, the men/war thing is baloney. History is full of warrior women. Also, in more recent times, let's not forget Margaret Thatcher manufactured the Falklands War and she's a mother (in more ways than one).
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whynotshesaid
07/10/09

@Diziet_Sma: I didn't take it as men=war. She said "masculinity." Just because a woman is a woman doesn't mean she can't buy into the cult of masculinity. I'd say Thatcher is a prime example of a woman who does that.
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Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
07/10/09

@ChuffedLittleMuffin: Steinem's gone on the record before about how women likely have just as much potential to be violent and start wars, but we're not in the position to do so now and likely won't be for a very, very long time, so let's deal with what we have. I don't think she's looking at anything innate, just thousands of years of history.
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SarahMC
07/10/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
OK, here goes. I am dipping my toe into the commenting waters for the first time since yesterday. Phew. There are so many choice quotes here!
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Laulau
07/10/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
The putting the name to a thing is so freaking true. An odd analogy, but quite a few years back I was having these moments where I literally felt like I was going to die and had to get home as quickly as possible or else. It didn't get 100% better once my therapist finally named these episodes as panic attacks, but boy did having a name help me to feel in more control of the situation. I think a similar thing can be applied to feminism and calling out our culture as androcentric - it's not just you getting annoyed at the way you're sometimes treated, or portrayed in the media, or described. It's an endemic problem against which we have made mere inroads.
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LucilleMcGillicuddy
07/10/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
I met her at a party about 10 years ago or so and I talked her ear off and she talked mine
off right back despite the fact that I was just a person at a party. ♡♡♡♡♡♡♡ her.
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Penny
07/10/09

@LucilleMcGillicuddy: I can't imagine running into someone like that at a gathering. I think I would be too scared to speak. Unless I were drunk, I guess.
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LucilleMcGillicuddy
07/10/09

@Penny: wine
definitely helped.
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whynotshesaid
07/10/09

@LucilleMcGillicuddy: Gloria Steinem and Joan Didion are the two people in the world I would be starstruck into speechlessness if I met them.
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sportz.star
07/10/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
But, Gloria, when? When will "feminism" = "life" and can I just come back then? Perhaps it's this cult you speak of that's much of the problem.
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newyorkette
07/10/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
That quote on giving birth to someone else or giving birth to yourself is astounding. What an excellent retort to people who give you shit for not wanting kids.
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schweppes
07/10/09

@newyorkette: I think she was very careful, though, to qualify it as "in my generation." I wonder whether it's an either/or now.
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AuburnPonytail
07/10/09

@newyorkette: I'm definatly going to use that in the future! "Kids? I don't have time for kids, I'm too busy giving birth to myself! Gloria told me to."
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LBB
07/10/09

@schweppes: Yes, it still is, for many women... in addition to the societal expectation that mothers should not take time for themselves, many women don't even have the option because of the long hours they must work to provide for their families.
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schweppes
07/10/09

@LBB: Right, I appreciate that, for some women, you have to choose one or another. But I think that she was careful to make it clear that it's not an either/or for ALL women, like it was a few generations ago.
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Diziet_Sma
07/10/09

@newyorkette: No, no, no - I understand what she means, but I don't like that phrasing at all. It reinforces the 'selfish' child-free thing. Why should one feel the need to justify not having children? Can't you just say, 'I don't want them' and leave it at that?

If pushed, I sometimes resort to 'I don't like children'; which is not true. Of course what I really want to say is 'What's it to you, you nosy cow?'
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fauxfruit
07/10/09

@newyorkette: I whole-heartedly agree it is no one else's business if you choose to have children or not and your reason for that choice, but her quote kind of rubbed me the wrong way. It sounded to me like "I chose to grow as a person and learn about myself as opposed to stunting myself by having a child." You can grow and learn a lot about yourself by having a child, too. If someone told me this and I had children, I would be offended. I don't feel anyone should be slighted for their choice, whatever it may be.
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whynotshesaid
07/10/09

@fauxfruit: If you take the "in my generation" into account, does that change your point of view? Because I have often heard from women of a certain age that exact same sentiment.
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sara-without-an-h
07/10/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
"In my generation it was perceived as a choice: either you gave birth to someone else or you gave birth to yourself."
What a powerful, provocative quote. I was babysitting five kids for a week and it occured to me just how selfless and dedicated parents had to be. I realized then and there that at 23 I had not yet given birth to myself, and I felt so thankful I had the choice.
I wonder how many mothers feel that this alternative is still current.
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Penny
07/10/09

@sara-without-an-h: This resonated with me as well. I think my "birth" happened around the age of 25. It wasn't an "ah-ha" moment as much as, looking back, I really became 100 times more comfortable with myself and tons more self-aware.
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Slumdog_Mamabear
07/10/09

@sara-without-an-h: That statement really struck a chord with me. But my experience has been that becoming a mother resulted in me giving birth to myself again.
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andBegorrah
07/10/09

@sara-without-an-h: What strikes me about that line is it's being in the past tense; I have to wonder if she acknowledges that this either/or construction minimized the "wholeness" or "self-awareness" of women who do choose to have children.
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femaledwightschrute
07/10/09

@sara-without-an-h: I think the word perceived should be highlighted here, as I think the current mindset has been changing about this issue. I think a lot of us younger folk have been led to believe that we can do both - give birth to children and also give birth to an identity separate from motherhood. Another growing sentiment is that a lot of mothers also feel that giving birth to their children has helped them give birth to another version of themselves, a version no less valid that the other.
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schweppes
07/10/09

@andBegorrah: I think it was 100% intentional - I noticed the qualifier ("in my generation") and tense right away. I think she might be awknowledging that today, you can do both, if you want, without the mother being "unborn."
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ccchild
07/10/09

@andBegorrah: I wonder, though, if the (gradual) moment of achieving self-awareness is what she means by that. I took the quote to mean the life-long process of growing and learning, not that you "graduate" into giving birth to yourself, and then you're a complete person. Today, presumably, she means that women can continue to "become their best selves" (really Oprah-y, I know) while also raising children, while back then, it was "Well, now you have to take 18 years off to raise kids. See you afterward!"
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Flackette Goes Retro
07/10/09

@sara-without-an-h: My only issue with that quote is I'm afraid it could be turned on its ear to reinforce the old "childless women are selfish and self-indulgent" trope.
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Penny
07/10/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
Yes, Gloria, you're brilliant. But I am still pissed at you for canceling the speaking engagement I was so stoked to attend.

Amen on the world peace bit. It sounds better to use the phrase "cult of masculinity," rather than saying men have been the main drivers of so much violence throughout humanity.
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CurtCole
07/10/09

@Penny: I think "cult of masculinity" kind of sounds hot, but I'm a perv.
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Trulymadlyme
07/10/09

@Penny: The normalization of violence is one of the most troubling aspects of masculinity in society. I know people hated Faludi's "Stiffed" but I do think there needs to be some reflection amount men (including me) on what sort of partners we ought to be, what sort of fathers and sons we ought to be, and what sort of members of communities we ought to be. We aren't asked to do much by society because everything associated with masculinity is deemed to be good (such as being a work -a- holic). And that's a big problem.
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PilgrimSoul
07/10/09

In reply to Gloria Explains It All
I may not have mentioned this before, but Gloria Steinem hugged me once.
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LadyFabulous
07/10/09

@PilgrimSoul: If I hug you does that mean I hugged her by association?
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Penny
07/10/09

@PilgrimSoul: I was wondering how long it would take you, you got right in there!
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andBegorrah
07/10/09

@PilgrimSoul: bell hooks pinched my ass once. See?! Feminism is multifaceted!
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CurtCole
07/10/09

@PilgrimSoul: Normally I am just jealous of your insightful wit, now I am jealous of your body--way to go!
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GeorgeFayne
07/10/09

@andBegorrah: Mary Daly yelled at me once! Highlight of my feminist life.
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Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
07/10/09

@PilgrimSoul: Were you on a plane, taking pills? Because it could have been a bespectacled teen.
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