Off-subject, but should she have like, donated the embryos? Or is that a whole 'nother thing? I mean, she makes it sound as though she didn't so much want to have more kids as she didn't want to have the embryos destroyed. I know it's hindsight and the babies are here, but I was just wondering. #octomom
"I know the government says we should marry at 18, but even at 12 or 15, it's difficult to keep a girl's honor. And by 18, if unmarried, they get crazy thoughts."
I think this is it. If only we could make everybody understand that your virginity is by NO means tied to any sort of honor...
Also, I've always been bothered at the fact that losing your virginity is not so much being dishonored yourself, but it's that you're dishonoring the poor men in charge of you. How darling. #childmarriageindia
@The Real Janelle: No kidding. My WTF moment reading the passage you quoted was along the lines of "And why exactly is it so difficult for 12- and 15-year-olds to keep their honor? Is it because people are messing with them who have no right to do so? And why is that the girls' fault?" Sheesh. #childmarriageindia
@The Real Janelle: We've been having a discussion similar to this in my Hebrew Bible class about "The
Story of Dinah." Dinah can't go out and lose her virginity because it's not hers. It belongs to her father since she's his proprietey. The matter of importance in the story isn't if Dinah was raped or not, it's that Jacob's (her father) propriety was violated.
And here at home, the ERA is on the congressional agenda, as it has been every year since 1923. American women are not full citizens with complete rights, either. #childmarriageindia
"In 1992, Bhanwari Devi, a village woman working for a nonprofit group, was gang-raped after she tried to prevent a child marriage. The accused men were acquitted on the grounds that "upper caste men, including a Brahmin, would not rape a woman of a lower caste," according to the court ruling."
Seriously, WTF India? The fact that the caste system is being used as a rape defense shouldn't surprise me, but somehow still does. #childmarriageindia
@Hooplehead: I was under the impression that the caste system had been abolished, and therefore would not be a legally valid defense. #childmarriageindia
@LexiD523: I know someone here in north america that was disowned by her family of doctors after she married an indian guy in IT (not up to par with the doctors caste). Than her family proceeded to send her bills for the education they paid for, since she was not their daughter any more.
I like diverse culture, but hey India, the caste system is fucking stupid. It's alive and well in North America never mind India. #childmarriageindia
@KaneBaker: It's like racial segregation here in America. Sure, it's not legally mandated anymore, but the de facto barriers are still there.
I thought the caste system was gone with the wind too, until I realized all my Indian-American friends (who all come from affluent, well-educated backgrounds) are Brahmins or Kshatriyas.* The lower castes aren't the ones with the resources to make it into the top universities and then get jobs as doctors or engineers in America.
*"Priest" and "warrior" castes, for those not as familiar with Indian culture. The two highest castes. #childmarriageindia
@Erda: My family's from the lowest caste possible in India, and yet they have tons of money in their family. Enough that my great grandfather started a non-profit K-12 and college for underprivileged girls and women, and my father recently paying the start up cost and building for non-profit university for underprivileged Indian children.
There is also laws in lots of places in India which are affirmative action but for low caste students. Mandating that a certain percentage of seats are only given to low caste students.
Your friends being of similar caste has to do more with their family's social circle. I know tons of poor Brahmins and Kshatriyas (just like I've seen very dark Brahmins, and my grandmother is as light as most 'white' women in the US).
Sadly, America isn't as good as it use to be in trying to break the economic ties of professionals. In recent years more students are limited into entering medical and law school from how much money their family makes. #childmarriageindia
@Hooplehead: I'm not surprised. No matter what the Indian gov. says the caste system is alive and well. My husband is a Brahman and his family takes the caste system very seriously and did all sorts of awful things to try to break us up including on the day we got married. They thought they'd get to pick him a Brahman bride from their subcaste and him getting married to a WASP was definitely not what they had planned.
@LexiD523: Caste has been abolished by the constitution, and discrimination is illega. There is also some affirmative action for the dalits, but it's still well entrenched in the culture and Hindu religion. #childmarriageindia
@rikki-tikki-tavi: Sorry for the misunderstanding. I had also been told by my friends that most affluent Indian-Americans are Brahmins or Kshatriyas, so I wasn't just jumping to conclusions, but apparently they were.
It's nice to see that the caste system is not as rigid as I thought it was, though apparently there is still a lot of work that needs to be done. #childmarriageindia
@Hooplehead: Not only that but upper-caste men are ESPECIALLY likely to rape Dalit and other lower-caste women. As we know rape is a tool of exerting power, control and authority over a vulnerable person, that is exactly what this situation was all about. Not to mention the literally countless incidents of gang rape and murder of Dalits by upper-caste people. #childmarriageindia
@Kivrin: I doubt it's the whole "boys take longer to mature" thing - I think that's probably a culture specific aphorism. I don't know, either! #childmarriageindia
The British documentary was on tv here last night, the NY Times guy is in it as well which is all very meta considering this.
To be honest, I have to say after seeing it, I actually gained a new respect for her. She didn't come across as deluded, or insane or some bat-shit crazy mother. Yes, she clearly has issues regarding her want to have even 6 kids as a single mother, but she didn't ask for 8 more nor did she expect it. And she seems to deal with it incredibly well. To see her in this zoo of a house, kids screaming everywhere and yet she stays level-headed and sane, it's quite something.
I still think the children will be awfully fucked up and will all need therapy, I think none of them gets enough attention etc. But I do also think she is truly doing the best she can. Really, her mother (who is a complete tyrant), the weird sperm-donor 'friend' and the doctor who implanted her with 6 embryos rather than the legal 2 should all be examined as well. She didn't get to this situation on her own, which is something people tend to forget. She didn't want 8 kids and even if she did, the chances of 6 embryos all surviving and 2 of them becoming twins is incredibly unlikely.
Whatever the case, I'm dying to see how these children turn out. Particularly the eldest, Elijah, who is literally oiling up the wheels to go off the rails any day now... #octomom
@chancentrate: Yeah, I watched this documentary last night here in Britain too and have to agree with you on all your points.
However I'm wondering why this article keeps mentioning squalor? I thought her house was surprisingly clean and neat considering the 14 kids and 5 adults in it everyday. The kids are clean, well dressed and had a tonne of fancy toys.
I know parenting involves more than just that, but she seemed to be doing well on the practicalities to me. #octomom
@chancentrate: I have to disagree on one point. Any woman who has previously had successful IVF, which she did, and who is still young, which she is, who didn't think 6 frozen embryos would result in multiples IS deluded or at the least incredibly and recklessly misinformed about IVF. Frozen embryos have to the best of the best - clinics only freeze embryos that are top quality - making them more likely to implant and develop.
Of course, had she had a responsibly doctor, it wouldn't be an issue because he wouldn't have transferred 6 and would have explained the risks to her. But she doesn't get a pass on that point. What she did was very reckless and she's lucky that all of the babies lived and none seems to have serious issues. #octomom
@Maritsa: Every other time she had a kid they implanted 5 embryos and only one would result in a child. In one case it became twins. But otherwise, she had no reason to believe the this many embryos would yield any more than one child. #octomom
@gherkinfiend: I totally agree about the cleanliness!! I remember at one point she was int eh kitchen, and she was drying her hand with a paper towel or something, and I remember thinking, christ that kichen is so clean. How does she even have time to re-fill her paper towel holder?? #octomom
@chancentrate: Not true, she previously had fraternal twins, so she may not have anticipated 2 of the 6 splitting into identicals, but she knew there was a risk of at least twins, if not more. Any time you have a transfer of more than one you are at a pretty big risk of having multiples. The twin rate for IVF is about 40%, and that's with most people transferring two or three embryos. And she was a young woman with previous IVF pregnancies, which makes her likelihood of getting pregnant even higher.
I mostly blame the doctor - he's since been expelled from the ASRM for his practices. I'm not trying to condemn her, I don't think she's evil, but I do think she was willfully ignorant, at best. And on a personal level as someone who's done IVF, people like her who abuse it make me insane, because they lead to things like half-assed legislation (see, Georgia) seeking to limit other people's ART choices. #octomom
@Maritsa: well, and then there's the question of selective reduction. So you have a doctor who very irresponsibly implants EIGHT high-quality embryos, and time passes, and you see you are pregnant with eight fetuses. What was the conversation then around selective reduction? The human body is generally meant to gestate one baby at a time - even twins have a higher rate of developmental problems than singletons. Trying to have eight babies at one time is just a bad idea, in terms of their health, not even to speak of the mother's health. If you are a person who KNOWS that you would not take advantage of selective reduction if you were pregnant with more than two embryos, than you should probably never have more than two embryos transferred at a time. #octomom
It's not like stuffing 6 in there increases the chance of any single embryo turning into a baby. An embryo will either continue to develop, or not. Multiple transfers would have been just as effective. She still could have used up all of her embroys, just in 3 transfers rather than one. And frozen transfers, while not cheap, are not prohibitively expensive. #octomom
After reading the full article in the nytimes, I was surprised at how positive a picture they painted of her; one of the filmmakers pointing out that she 'lives in the moment' actually explains her entire situation. She's impulsive, she doesn't think through things, so she ended up with lots of babies.
I don't think she should be judged.
Society's reaction toward her decision reinforces the idea that children are luxuries that only middle class and upper class people are entitled to. We view children as status symbols and extensions of ourselves, instead of living creatures that start off small but will eventually take care of us all.
As long as our society remains child-unfriendly (as in, childcare is too expensive, working mothers get punished in the workplace for being mothers, people are judged if they have kids 'too soon' or wait 'too long'), this endless cycle of judging mothers will never end.
All loving mothers should be appreciated, no matter their circumstances. #octomom
It's getting harder and harder for me to read the Times magazine. It's more of an upscale, sans serif celeb mag on the inside than an old American publication. I think I wish it still embodied its older charm, but they've cut it down and literally cut out a lot of the dry reporting that used to challenge me, at least a little, every Sunday.
It reminds me more of New York magazine in its design, now, and it has that same expose-a-celebrity motive now. Bummer. I'll stick with the NY Times for its newspaper and web slideshows, but the blogging and new "accessible" (my own assessment) is just a little too much.
It's only problematic for me because it's become easier to read. I mean, these pieces about actresses as overturned stones with crawly bugs underneath are well-written and eloquent, but after I'm done.... well, that was it?
Does anyone else feel this way? Maybe what they say is true, the Times has always been written for an 8th grader's reading level. I used to resent that, but now I'm just a little pissed at it. #octomom
It just seems like such a terrible waste to me, which I know is an odd reaction. She clearly can't handle 14 children and ultimately it will be the kids who bear the consequence of that. Someone out there, there are hundreds of well-educated, financially stable, perfectly nice couples who can't have children and would just DIE to have one of these kids and raise him/her as their own.
Love, though central to motherhood, is also blinding. The right decision would have been for her to give these kids up to well-suited families. That would have been the best thing she could have done for them. #octomom
@Birthday Girl: It would be extraordinarily difficult for her autistic son to be adopted, largely because relatively few adoptive parents are interested in kids with disabilities--especially behavioral and developmental disabilities. #octomom
This situation, and picure, remind me of The Simpsons episode wherein Apu and Manjula put their eight kids in a sort of... child zoo? for profit. #octomom
@sailorsong: That literally happened to the Dionne Quintuplets. They lived in a specially-constructed edifice that had a playground which was open for "public viewing". [en.wikipedia.org]#octomom
My grandparents on my dad's side come from families where there were 16 and 18 kids. They were catholic families from the north of England, and had absolutely no money.. they did fine. My point is, if she were catholic and said that she had this many babies for religious reasons, would she be so incredibly frowned upon? #octomom
@philoclea: I mean, some people would indeed frown on that anyway. But the real point is that the comparison is inaccurate. If you have 18 kids naturally, most of them are not born at the same time, nu? The older kids can help take care of the younger ones, they can help with chores, and clothes can be handed down. Having eight babies at the same time is insane, and her oldest daughter is seven, so unlikely to be as much help as even a twelve-year old might be. #octomom
@philoclea: Yes. My grandparents were Lebanese Catholic and each came from families of 10+ children. But one family was extremely wealthy in Beirut, and could afford to send all their children to schools. The other family ran a farm and subsisted mostly off of what they grew themselves. Suleman has neither option, nor do most families in the US. We simply do not live in a world where that many children is sustainable in a household - let alone a single parent household. #octomom
@Habibiti: Thanks -- I was going to add the "farm" idea -- that a lot of kids can actually help with labour around the farm, or do handywork. I guess the only labour Suleman's kids are capable of is the one they're doing -- being actors. #octomom
@philoclea: I agree. Part of being a family is learning to help each other and becoming a team. But Suleman's children are not going to get the option of *learning* how to take pride in being a participating member of a family - she is essentially forcing them to take care of themselves from their birth. I would understand if in the future her children felt resentful of the responsibility she's given them. #octomom
@KnickersFace: catholic families for the most part don't have eight babies all at once. 10 kids spaces out over time might be a lot, but it's far more manageable. #octomom
@philoclea: But that's not raising your children yourself. That's passing on the responsibility to your other children. How is that a good thing? #octomom
@UKinUSA: I suppose you're one of those people who think that children who are not accompanied by their mother 24/7 are neglected, right?
News flash: it's fine for grandparents, neighbours, friends, older siblings, aunts, cousins, nannies, teachers, etc. to have a hand in raising kids. That is the way it used to be done, before some people decided a woman had to be shackled to her progeny until death. Actually, it's even fine for kids to be on their own every now and then.
As for "passing on the responsibility," you are confusing daily chores with the much more serious business of parenting, namely providing the kind of moral, social, and emotional structure and support that children need to become mature and well-adjusted adults. Big sis or bro can watch over the baby of an evening, but the responsibility for both children remains the parents'. #octomom
@UKinUSA: kids that are spaced out in age can watch each other when they get older. also, kids that are spaced out in age won't all wake up for 3am feedings at the same time. #octomom
11/15/09
11/13/09
11/13/09
11/13/09
I think this is it. If only we could make everybody understand that your virginity is by NO means tied to any sort of honor...
Also, I've always been bothered at the fact that losing your virginity is not so much being dishonored yourself, but it's that you're dishonoring the poor men in charge of you. How darling. #childmarriageindia
11/13/09
11/13/09
Story of Dinah." Dinah can't go out and lose her virginity because it's not hers. It belongs to her father since she's his proprietey. The matter of importance in the story isn't if Dinah was raped or not, it's that Jacob's (her father) propriety was violated.
11/13/09
11/13/09
11/13/09
*Every day
11/13/09
Seriously, WTF India? The fact that the caste system is being used as a rape defense shouldn't surprise me, but somehow still does. #childmarriageindia
11/13/09
11/13/09
I like diverse culture, but hey India, the caste system is fucking stupid. It's alive and well in North America never mind India. #childmarriageindia
11/13/09
11/13/09
I thought the caste system was gone with the wind too, until I realized all my Indian-American friends (who all come from affluent, well-educated backgrounds) are Brahmins or Kshatriyas.* The lower castes aren't the ones with the resources to make it into the top universities and then get jobs as doctors or engineers in America.
*"Priest" and "warrior" castes, for those not as familiar with Indian culture. The two highest castes. #childmarriageindia
11/13/09
There is also laws in lots of places in India which are affirmative action but for low caste students. Mandating that a certain percentage of seats are only given to low caste students.
Your friends being of similar caste has to do more with their family's social circle. I know tons of poor Brahmins and Kshatriyas (just like I've seen very dark Brahmins, and my grandmother is as light as most 'white' women in the US).
Sadly, America isn't as good as it use to be in trying to break the economic ties of professionals. In recent years more students are limited into entering medical and law school from how much money their family makes. #childmarriageindia
11/13/09
11/13/09
11/13/09
It's nice to see that the caste system is not as rigid as I thought it was, though apparently there is still a lot of work that needs to be done. #childmarriageindia
11/14/09
11/13/09
11/13/09
11/13/09
To be honest, I have to say after seeing it, I actually gained a new respect for her. She didn't come across as deluded, or insane or some bat-shit crazy mother. Yes, she clearly has issues regarding her want to have even 6 kids as a single mother, but she didn't ask for 8 more nor did she expect it. And she seems to deal with it incredibly well. To see her in this zoo of a house, kids screaming everywhere and yet she stays level-headed and sane, it's quite something.
I still think the children will be awfully fucked up and will all need therapy, I think none of them gets enough attention etc. But I do also think she is truly doing the best she can. Really, her mother (who is a complete tyrant), the weird sperm-donor 'friend' and the doctor who implanted her with 6 embryos rather than the legal 2 should all be examined as well. She didn't get to this situation on her own, which is something people tend to forget. She didn't want 8 kids and even if she did, the chances of 6 embryos all surviving and 2 of them becoming twins is incredibly unlikely.
Whatever the case, I'm dying to see how these children turn out. Particularly the eldest, Elijah, who is literally oiling up the wheels to go off the rails any day now... #octomom
11/13/09
However I'm wondering why this article keeps mentioning squalor? I thought her house was surprisingly clean and neat considering the 14 kids and 5 adults in it everyday. The kids are clean, well dressed and had a tonne of fancy toys.
I know parenting involves more than just that, but she seemed to be doing well on the practicalities to me. #octomom
11/13/09
Of course, had she had a responsibly doctor, it wouldn't be an issue because he wouldn't have transferred 6 and would have explained the risks to her. But she doesn't get a pass on that point. What she did was very reckless and she's lucky that all of the babies lived and none seems to have serious issues. #octomom
11/13/09
11/13/09
11/13/09
I mostly blame the doctor - he's since been expelled from the ASRM for his practices. I'm not trying to condemn her, I don't think she's evil, but I do think she was willfully ignorant, at best. And on a personal level as someone who's done IVF, people like her who abuse it make me insane, because they lead to things like half-assed legislation (see, Georgia) seeking to limit other people's ART choices. #octomom
11/13/09
11/13/09
It's not like stuffing 6 in there increases the chance of any single embryo turning into a baby. An embryo will either continue to develop, or not. Multiple transfers would have been just as effective. She still could have used up all of her embroys, just in 3 transfers rather than one. And frozen transfers, while not cheap, are not prohibitively expensive. #octomom
11/13/09
I don't think she should be judged.
Society's reaction toward her decision reinforces the idea that children are luxuries that only middle class and upper class people are entitled to. We view children as status symbols and extensions of ourselves, instead of living creatures that start off small but will eventually take care of us all.
As long as our society remains child-unfriendly (as in, childcare is too expensive, working mothers get punished in the workplace for being mothers, people are judged if they have kids 'too soon' or wait 'too long'), this endless cycle of judging mothers will never end.
All loving mothers should be appreciated, no matter their circumstances. #octomom
11/12/09
It reminds me more of New York magazine in its design, now, and it has that same expose-a-celebrity motive now. Bummer. I'll stick with the NY Times for its newspaper and web slideshows, but the blogging and new "accessible" (my own assessment) is just a little too much.
It's only problematic for me because it's become easier to read. I mean, these pieces about actresses as overturned stones with crawly bugs underneath are well-written and eloquent, but after I'm done.... well, that was it?
Does anyone else feel this way? Maybe what they say is true, the Times has always been written for an 8th grader's reading level. I used to resent that, but now I'm just a little pissed at it. #octomom
11/12/09
Love, though central to motherhood, is also blinding. The right decision would have been for her to give these kids up to well-suited families. That would have been the best thing she could have done for them. #octomom
11/13/09
11/12/09
11/13/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/14/09
11/14/09
11/14/09
News flash: it's fine for grandparents, neighbours, friends, older siblings, aunts, cousins, nannies, teachers, etc. to have a hand in raising kids. That is the way it used to be done, before some people decided a woman had to be shackled to her progeny until death. Actually, it's even fine for kids to be on their own every now and then.
As for "passing on the responsibility," you are confusing daily chores with the much more serious business of parenting, namely providing the kind of moral, social, and emotional structure and support that children need to become mature and well-adjusted adults. Big sis or bro can watch over the baby of an evening, but the responsibility for both children remains the parents'. #octomom
11/16/09