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clickable
08/11/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
One of the few times I wish I had a lot of money, so I could make the grand gesture of donating money to the State of California to pay for Ms Atkins' medical care so her continued incarceration won't cost more than releasing her to die at home and her husband can STFU.
Also, Mr. Susan Atkins? Your whining is getting on my nerves. It's a good thing I'm nothing like your wife.
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whynotshesaid
08/11/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
Between the Manson murders and "Slouching Towards Bethlehem," any romantic notions I once held about the 60s have been obliterated.
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wooden_shoes
08/11/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
Prison is supposed to be a place of both punishment and rehabilitation, and I can't help feel that all these women were rehabilitated, but have they been punished enough? I'm inclined to say yes, and that they should be granted parole, but I'm also inclined to say no, due to the horrific nature of the crimes. I'm actually quite torn.
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truckasaurus
08/11/09

@wooden_shoes: I can see why some of these women may deserve the sympathy of parole in some ways (specifically Van Houten), but then I remember that the Tate and LaBianca families STILL attend parole hearings and argue against their release. In a case like this, I do believe that the family's wishes should be honored.
I get sick to my stomach when I think of Tate begging for the life of her baby, only to be sneered at by Atkins. Why should she be given any more compassion than what she gave to Tate?
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wooden_shoes
08/11/09

@truckasaurus is jackie jormp-jomp: Because we can not expect compassion when we ourselves are not willing to give it.
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DailyPep
08/11/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
Ya know, in Tex Watson's book, Will You Die For Me, he is very forthcoming about his role in the murders, explaining that he was the one to actually end every life on those two horrible nights. The women did a lot of stabbing, but he finished every one of the victims off... including Sharon Tate, directly contradicting Vincent Bugliosi's account in Helter Skelter. Tex could be lying though. He is a murderer after all. Still, these ladies were bad bad bad bad bad bad news.
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Hooplehead promoted this comment Edited by DailyPep at 08/11/09 2:46 AM DailyPep was starred DailyPep was unstarred

randomnessish
08/10/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
All these comments seem so...judgemental imo. "Their only mercy is that they shouldn't be fried." "I can't believe John Waters would befriend her, that's so sick." That they should rot and die in jail. These women--and all of the other kids in the Family--were cruelly brainwashed. Heaven's Gate? The Branch Dividians? Jonestown? All were cults, in very recent memory--the only difference is that really, none of them ever got up to the point of brutally murdering and robbing innocent people. Except, of course, Jonestown (/the Branch Dividians? I can't remember), but that was at the very end of the seige.
Being young, impressionable, and under the haze of drugs constantly (it's not like I haven't tripped a few times) is dangerous.

Which is not to say that they shouldn't stay there, really--but to mark them as totally evil shouldn't be the answer.
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Edited by randomnessish at 08/10/09 11:54 PM randomnessish was starred randomnessish was unstarred

zoe3225
08/11/09

@randomnessish: The point is that those other cults, as you say, never got the the point of brutally murdering other people. If the Manson Family hadn't murdered anyone, they wouldn't be in jail. If Susan Atkins had shown Sharon Tate mercy, her pleas for a mercy release from prison wouldn't be so offensive. Yes, the difference between those other cults and the Manson Family is that the other cults didn't brutally murder innocent people. That's the whole point.
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smizmar
08/11/09

@randomnessish: I've always thought that judgement has a bit of an undeserved bad rep. I don't think there's anything wrong with judging; it's a natural function of an intellectual, thinking mind.When I start to feel a little too judgey about the Manson family, I remember that they were not above making the judgement call that Sharon Tate, her innocent unborn fetus who was very much wanted, and all their other victims did not deserve to live. (I don't care how young, fucked up, and brainwashed they were; they made an irreversible decision in determining the end of human lives.) And then I don't have any problem at all in judging them.
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Hooplehead promoted this comment Edited by smizmar at 08/11/09 12:57 AM smizmar was starred smizmar was unstarred

Hooplehead
08/11/09

@smizmar: The quote that always gets me is when Krenwinkle was stabbing Abigail Folger again and again and Folger tells her to "Stop, I'm already dead." Their absolute disregard for the suffering of the people they were slaughtering was one of the scariest things I've ever heard.
The LaBiancas, Sharon Tate, her baby and her guests died horrifically violently deaths at the hands of these crazy assholes, all for some crackpot scheme to induce a race war so that Manson could be king of the world. Roman Polanski lost his entire family that day. And for what?
Those actions were sociopathic, and yes, evil. I don't think that people are judgey or small-minded in being horrified by them. I personally have a hard time seeing the good in someone who could do those things and then argue that they have it so rough because they're still in jail. At least they're alive to be in jail, which is a damn sight better than their victims and families are doing.
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morninggloria
08/10/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
... so that's where Clay Aiken got his fashion inspiration.
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Penny
08/11/09

@morninggloria: You're terrible Muriel.....
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ytuhermanotambien
08/10/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
Apparently Charles Manson himself is up for parole every few years too-- but it's pretty clear that they're never going to grant it, luckily.
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electricbubbles
08/11/09

@ytuhermanotambien: Not when he does things like show up to parole court with a swastika on his forehead.
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Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
08/11/09

@electricbubbles: Apropos to nothing, but isn't that swastika a scar?
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Jo Aage
08/11/09

@Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith: No. It started out as a tattooed cross and he later changed it to a swastika. (Don't ask me where I learned that.)
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Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
08/13/09

@Jo Aage: Oh I thought he'd scratched that thing on, rather than tattooing it; didn't the women do something similar in tribute to him or in solidarity or something at their trials?
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BitingThrough
08/10/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
Oh yes, becoming a Christian. So much easier than saying, "The things I did were horrific and I absolutely deserve to spend the rest of my days in jail".
The drug angle? I did a lot of acid back in the day, too. Know what it made me want to do? Play frisbee in the park with my friends. We drank beer and took baths in the rain.
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AllieCaulfield
08/10/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
Way to go John Waters. Golly, you really think leslie looks like Hilary Swank? I think I'm going to be sick.
I recall a terrifying detail the night of the murders: Susan Atkins noted that when she roamed through the house, one of the women (Sharon?) waved to her thinking she was a guest & Susan waved back. The horror of it is unimaginable.
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descent
08/10/09

@AllieCaulfield: I'm curious, is your problem that Waters treats her like a human being when she once acted like a monster, or that he would seemingly trivially compare her appearance to that of a movie star?
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Penny
08/11/09

@descent: Not to answer for Allie, but just to respond to some of the general statements about their friendship--your latter statement, yes, kind of struck me as weird. As if, her looks would somehow impact how we feel about her. I fully believe in rehabilitation, certainly for those who were hopped on on drugs and in a cult. And, as much as I really, really like Waters, it just seems.....almost, like a forced transgression. I don't know enough about the details, but I also don't think it's totally unreasonable to have a somewhat conflicted reaction to their friendship.
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rubyinthedust
08/10/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
For some reason, I had always been under the impression that all the children born during the time "The Family" was active, including any of Manson's biological children, had been adopted out. It's more than a bit scary to think someone with his DNA is out in the world somewhere and was raised by someone that was involved in all of this. People can change, I suppose, but still.
No doubt the government has kept tabs on this Manson spawn for the past 40 years.
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My_Latest_Incarnation
08/10/09

@rbynthdst: knw ths s crl, bt wld nt hv pt thm p fr dptn. wld hv pt thm dwn. Th wrld dsn't nd tht DN n t's gn
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Penny promoted this comment Edited at 08/11/09 8:47 AM

Deaf Mute
08/11/09

@My_Latest_Incarnation: It's not cruel, it's just plain insane.
I'm sorry, I thought I lived in the 21st century where modern science has demonstrated that it isn't your ancestry that determines what kind of person you're going to grow up to be strictly, but your environment and how you were raised, along with some intrinsic personality traits.
I don't know about Manson's ancestors, but do you think they also were psychopaths and murderers? Each and every one of them? Do you really think that if we arrest every bad person, kill them immediately, and their children and anyone they are close to then the world would naturally have only good people in it?
Because apparently people are inherently good or evil, not just people with varying mixes of both?
I bet you that you have someone in your family who has commited a crime, terrible ones in fact. If not now perhaps in your ancestry.
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MagsCO
08/11/09

@My_Latest_Incarnation: Seriously? I can't believe you actually mean that, but just in case...
Charles Manson had a pretty screwed up childhood. His mother was like 16 when she had him, was a major alcoholic who supposedly sold him for a pitcher of beer when he was a baby (a relative later got him back). He was bounced around between different relatives and homes. He started stealing at a young age and ended up in and out of state-run juvenile facilities where he was abused physically and sexually. I am not trying to justify any of his later acts, but just saying it's more than DNA that leads someone to become a criminal. While mental illness can be hereditary, character is not. I am sure if the children were adopted by loving families, they had the same chance as anyone else of growing up to be normal.
As with other famous bad guys such as serial killers and dictators, it's tempting to just label them all as "evil" or "monsters" and blame it on DNA. It's far more frightening to think they were regular human beings (or at least started out that way) and that a human being could be capable of such horrific acts.
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DoctorNine
08/10/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
This is perhaps the best example one can point to, of evidence that it is imperative for women to make decisions for themselves, and not simply follow some lover's directives, however magnetic and compelling those directives may seem.

That, and the other rule: one should never take LSD with a homicidal maniac.
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Penny
08/10/09

@DoctorNine's D9 Cat: My dad once showed me a photo from his bachelor party (a bunch of guys hanging out and drinking) and said they had ALL died from either drug or alcohol related issues. One of them killed his grandparents with a hammer while tripping on LSD. That shit is not to be messed with.
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little_librarian
08/10/09

@DoctorNine's D9 Cat: Agreed. Manson completely treated them all like shit basically, and preached that all women were good for was sex and making babies.
I remember watching some documentary where he said he didn't care about them at all, the girls that had killed for him. The lack of self esteem they all had is very sad.
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vanka-vstanka
08/11/09

@Penny: My parents graduated from high school in 1969 and the number of people in their graduating class who either died or just completely messed up their lives because of drugs is staggering.
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BytheSea
08/10/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
John Waters was interviewed on CNBC or sommat regarding Van Houten. (I watched it at the gym.) He said she said, "I've spend the last 40 years of my life becoming the person I would have been if I'd never met him." Waters says she can't make parole because Charles Manson has "become Freddie Kreuger." She qualifies, but it's the specter of the epicness of the crime that's keeping her in.
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keldo
08/10/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
Tracie - Amazing job on summarizing the women behind Charles Manson. So incredibly tragic for everyone involved.The fact these these girls look so wholesome and all American makes this double chilling.
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Edited by keldo at 08/10/09 9:55 PM keldo was starred keldo was unstarred

Niphil
08/11/09

@keldo: What does all American mean here?
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foodandshoes
08/11/09

@Niphil: White, middle-class women. You know; not those people who commit crimes.
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keldo
08/11/09

@Niphil: I meant stereotypically wholesome, girl next door, applecheeked, cheerleader...I think you get my point. Not someone who would fillet you with a knife.
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Yitzhak
07/10/09

In reply to Jessica The Domesticated Hippo Mothers Puppies
You're alright John Waters, but I like to leave the telling of my hippo stories up to little french girls.
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Ultraprison!
07/10/09

In reply to Jessica The Domesticated Hippo Mothers Puppies
Wait, these people have puppies AND an adorable loving hippo? Can I move in with them??? Hippocam!
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