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"She Thinks It Was A Bad Date, A Bad Evening."
Matthew Weiner: "Who Says Joan's Coming Back?"
Mad Men's Appeal Is All About Joan
Mad Women Experience Frequent Aftershocks
Mad Men: It's All Fun & Games Until Someone Loses A…
Mad Men: "It's A Dead Man's Hat. Take It Off."
Where The Wild Things Are
Mad Men's Christina Hendricks Loves Curves, Hates Boning
New Crop Of Mad Men Photos Is Chock Full Of "Spoilers"
My Mad Men Avatar Is Awkward And Drunk

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rumpelshowsskin
10/26/09

In reply to "She Thinks It Was A Bad Date, A Bad Evening."
I love the point Christina Hendricks makes that if Joan was a modern-day character we would not view her so triumphantly. I think that point cannot be made enough. That is exactly the way I feel and i love her as a character.

Mad Men resonates so much with me because it lets me see how differently things move in different parts of the universe. The stuff that goes on in MM is sometimes so identical to how suburban life, office dynamics, gender politics, sex and power work in the business world of my home that it gives me goosebumps. And so I know Joan. Personally. Four, five, six times over. My best friend from elementary school is exactly like her. And the ways in which she is forced to navigate her universe make me feel sad for her not empowered.

I love to see Joan fight back and utilise her skill and work her universe to advantage as much as the next girl. But there's a big part that always wishes she didn't have to and wishes she wouldn't play the game because she can't dismantle the master's house with the master's tools. #madmen
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la vie en hypnose
10/26/09

@rumpelshowsskin: she can't dismantle the master's house with the master's tools.

Madame, I do believe I've just hearted you. #madmen
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FrannyR
10/26/09

In reply to "She Thinks It Was A Bad Date, A Bad Evening."
Sounds like what millions of other women would do. It infuriates me that the court systems and society at large are so behind on this. They still cling on to some idea that if it's a "real rape" a woman will behave in a certain way. i.e. kick, scream, and then be visibly shocked and traumatised afterwards. If someone gets up, brushes off and goes on with her life like it didn't happen, ppl will claim that it wasn't rape. (Especially if it's someone who exudes confidence in other areas of her life, because we are all consistent in every aspect of our personality, right?) Which means that if a woman is ever raped, she shouldn't act according to her instincts, but according to some warped hollywood-script if she wants to be believed. Kudos to Christina Hendricks for this realistic interpretation of Joan's response to the rape. #madmen
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la vie en hypnose
10/26/09

@FrannyR: Word. Also can we discuss the terms date rape/ acquaintance rape? Lets call a spade a frickin' spade and just call it rape. I feel like often times these stupid qualifiers are used as a means to lessen the severity of the rape. Like somehow if the woman knows the person or is on a date somehow she deserved to be raped or there's inherently ambiguity involved. Fuck that noise! Rape is rape, whether it's by some psycho hiding behind a bush or by your best guy friend of several years. #madmen
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Lymed
10/26/09

@la vie en hypnose: The term date rape is really important in order for people to understand it is rape. It is not meant as a qualifier. It is meant to make people understand you can be raped by your date or somebody you are in a relationship with. That term is one of the reasons so many people today watched what happened to Joan and called it rape. #madmen
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la vie en hypnose
10/26/09

@Lymed: I understand that, but at least from conversations that I've had with people it also used to mitigate rape as well.
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Edited by la vie en hypnose at 10/26/09 5:52 PM la vie en hypnose was starred

LouisiAnna
10/26/09

In reply to "She Thinks It Was A Bad Date, A Bad Evening."
My schedule is too tight to catch Mad Men a lot, and I think I'm more waiting to get the whole season all at once from Netflix, but anyway...when did this rape occur? What were the horrific circumstances? #madmen
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willwriteforfood
10/26/09

@LouisiAnna: It was toward the end of Season 2 and the circumstances started out entirely banal, which made the subsequent act that much more horrible. Greg came to visit Joan's office, they ran into Roger and Roger's behavior made Greg think Joan had a history with the guy. That put his ego into overdrive and he cornered her in Don's office while she poured him a drink. She fought him for a bit but clearly knew it was going to happen. It's so awful, that scene. She just...gives up fighting and looks like she went into shock. Brace yourself. #madmen
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The Queen of No
10/26/09

@LouisiAnna: To add to "willwriteforfood"'s explanation, the night before this incident Greg and Joan were about to make love but he said he was too tired. She told him she would take over and got on top of him. He asked her: "where did you pick that up?" He was obviously put off by her having quite a bit of sexual experience, even though she explained that she loved him and they didn't mean anything in comparison. He was very visibly upset and just turned over in bed and went to sleep. #madmen
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Doreen DelPurgatorio
10/26/09

In reply to "She Thinks It Was A Bad Date, A Bad Evening."
The article (on a separate page) includes an animation of the vase incident:

[nymag.com]
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curiousgeorgiana promoted this comment Edited by Doreen DelPurgatorio at 10/26/09 5:05 PM

curiousgeorgiana
10/26/09

In reply to "She Thinks It Was A Bad Date, A Bad Evening."
I've never admitted this before, but my (ex) boyfriend raped me on Valentine's Day-- I was a virgin, it was my first time, it was Valentine's Day. We had a really nice dinner, went dancing, and then he spiked my drink.

I lied to myself for over a year-- it was too horrible. It was easier to just tell myself I was a little tipsy and didn't remember all the details too clearly. That I had been planning on sleeping with him anyway, so how nice that it was on such a memorable day and that I just got it over with etc etc..

The ability of our brain to shut out painful things, particularly when the hurt comes from those we love and trust, is truly astonishing. #madmen
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yvanehtnioj
10/26/09

@curiousgeorgiana: God, I'm so sorry. Internet hug. #madmen
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winner
10/26/09

@curiousgeorgiana: What a fucker! I'm sorry you had to go through that. How old were you? Did you ever end up discussing it with him? #madmen
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BeckySharper
10/26/09

@curiousgeorgiana: I'm so, so sorry. Your response is totally understandable, for all the reasons you describe. Having your trust betrayed is so hard to tackle emotionally. #madmen
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NoelleBlue
10/26/09

@curiousgeorgiana: Oh, I'm so sorry, lovely. It's true - our minds are a powerful thing, and sometimes it shuts down certain experiences until, perhaps, we're ready to deal with them. What you say about those we love and trust is so very true. #madmen
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Lymed
10/26/09

@curiousgeorgiana: I'm so sorry. But thank you for sharing. I'm sure your comment is going to help more than one person cope themselves. #madmen
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curiousgeorgiana
10/26/09

@winner: I was 18, he was 21. He became outright abusive soon after that one "incident" but he never admitted what he did. It was/ is infuriating.

@all: Thanks so much for the warm wishes. You're the best. #madmen
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Flackette Goes Retro
10/26/09

@curiousgeorgiana: I totally get what you're saying. Something similar but not as dramatic happened to me (I had consented to sex, but asked for him not to do certain things, which he did anyway). That wasn't even the same, but I really tried to tidy it up in my mind to "he just got carried away" rather than a) admit to myself I was with someone who could be like that and b) that I had been violated in some way. Massive hugs. You have nothing to be embarrassed about. #madmen
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curiousgeorgiana
10/26/09

@Flackette Goes Retro: That's awful. Hugs right back at you. #madmen
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whynotshesaid
10/26/09

@curiousgeorgiana: I am so, so sorry. Kudos to you for being able to speak out about it. #madmen
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justcallmeangel
10/26/09

In reply to "She Thinks It Was A Bad Date, A Bad Evening."
I couldn't watch this scene. I knew what was going to happen and had to leave the room. I have sexual violence-in-media-exposure overload lately and I know I can't handle it. #madmen
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whynotshesaid promoted this comment Edited by justcallmeangel at 10/26/09 4:37 PM justcallmeangel was starred justcallmeangel was unstarred

whynotshesaid
10/26/09

@justcallmeangel: I thought I would be okay watching it because I knew it was coming, but instead, I nearly passed out my heart was beating so hard. It was a really well-done scene, which probably explains why it was so hard to watch. #madmen
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curiousgeorgiana
10/26/09

@justcallmeangel: It was incredibly claustrophobic. #madmen
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Sputnik_Sweetheart
10/26/09

In reply to "She Thinks It Was A Bad Date, A Bad Evening."
I need to start watching this show because that quote hit really close to home. Eeek. #madmen
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heliotrollop
10/26/09

In reply to "She Thinks It Was A Bad Date, A Bad Evening."
I appreciate the ridiculousness of disagreeing with the woman who portrays her, but I think at the time it was happening, Joan was miles past "bad date" and had just mentally checked out of the horror. Maybe later she tried to clean it up in her mind by calling it a "bad date" to herself, but I just can't believe that she was thinking that at the time.

Even though the woman doing the silent emoting just told me exactly what her character was thinking. #madmen
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Lymed
10/26/09

@heliotrollop ... (fka phoebe.caulfield): A lot of people would not consider it rape if that happened to them. It is easy to be on the outside looking it and say it is rape. It is rape. But for that person, to have that happen by somebody you love and trust, it is hard for the brain to call it rape. #madmen
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Maritsa
10/26/09

@Lymed: Especially in 1962, when law enforcement wouldn't have touched this case. You'd had sex with him before? And he was your fiance? Not rape. Of course I'm not sure how much better it would be handled today.... #madmen
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GreyEminence
10/26/09

In reply to "She Thinks It Was A Bad Date, A Bad Evening."
Related question that I've wondered about: was the word "rape" really used back in the 1960s? If someone was attacked and raped in Central Park or someplace, how would the newspapers describe the crime? Would the sexual assault element even be mentioned? #madmen
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otherginger
10/26/09

@GreyEminence: Certainly, being forced to have sex with your fiancee would never have been called "rape" (even though we think of it as such now). #madmen
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la vie en hypnose
10/26/09

In reply to "She Thinks It Was A Bad Date, A Bad Evening."
Don't we know it. Another moment that comes to my mind is when Joan's former roommate/ gal pal comes out and confesses love for Joan. It was so cruel and yet so kind. As a someone who has had SEVERAL unrequited crushes, I know all too well what its like to be so casually rebuffed. I liken it to swallowing a hot mitten full of shards of glass. But considering the time period, the kindest thing Joan could have done was to pretend nothing had happened. Anyone else would have spewed hateful slurs and totally abandoned the poor woman.

So much delicious nuance. God I love this show. :)
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Ailatan promoted this comment Edited by la vie en hypnose at 10/26/09 4:33 PM la vie en hypnose was starred

BeckySharper
10/26/09

In reply to "She Thinks It Was A Bad Date, A Bad Evening."
That's essentially what Betty does as well. It's not like women of Mad Men have much choice--they either have to make concessions or compartmentalize or they'll endanger their mental health (as we saw with Peggy after her child was born). #madmen
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Conchie Birdie
10/26/09

In reply to "She Thinks It Was A Bad Date, A Bad Evening."
Well it makes sense for a woman, back in those days, to try and make an excuse. I think Hendricks is totally spot-on with her character's thinking. Doesn't make me love Joan any less, though. #madmen
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Triana Orpheus
10/26/09

In reply to "She Thinks It Was A Bad Date, A Bad Evening."
I've got to disagree with her on this. Whenever Joan has a "bad evening" she fights back. Whether with an icy stare, a quick comeback or a vase to the back of the head. She relented herself to what he did and she left her body and went somewhere else. Joan recognizes what happened. I'll never get that look she had out of my mind. #madmen
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rah29
10/26/09

@Triana Orpheus: When Joanie smacked Dr Rapist with the vase I actually cheered. Hendricks has the most amazingly expressive face. I know this is a show on which a lot is said by faces and eyes rather than in words, but Joan is the very best at it. #madmen
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rumpelshowsskin
10/26/09

@Triana Orpheus: She fights back, yes, but she is usually not given the agency to name what has happened and feel a particular emotion about it, mainly because she is always denied the agency to even receive the appropriate or commensurate justice.

I think that is what makes it so poignant and triumphant for us who are watching. We are seeing her use the tiny arsenal she has at her disposal in comparison to these men and we are amazed at how much fight she has in her. But at the same time we also all know that anyone of us who was raped now, by someone who in turn just got a vase to the head as his punishment, would feel truly let down by the justice system. A bruised head is not even a remotely appropriate punishment for what Dr Douchebag did. That's the whole point.

To feel triumphant and be able to keep living Joan has to minimise in her own head what his crime was, so whatever small tool of vengeance she has at her disposal will seem adequate.

It's a psychological game she has to play to survive. Hence: "bad date, bad evening". Cognitive dissonance at its finest.
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HistoricUpstart promoted this comment Edited by rumpelshowsskin at 10/26/09 5:49 PM rumpelshowsskin was starred rumpelshowsskin was unstarred

Where The Mild Things Are
10/26/09

In reply to Matthew Weiner: "Who Says Joan's Coming Back?"
I think he means Sterling-Cooper, but I kind of love this quote, too:

Joan made a decision, and we're seeing the decision she made to go with Dr. Greg. She got exactly what she wanted, and like many women of that period, she has done what she's told. She's also like many women of that time: a human being who has tremendous sexual power and tremendous ability and has aimed very low, and is being punished in a way for her competence. To me, that's a story, and it's a story worth telling.

It's been so sad to watch Joan undergo exactly that - being punished for her competence. #matthewweinerjoan
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Lolita Hazed
10/26/09

In reply to Matthew Weiner: "Who Says Joan's Coming Back?"
I'm pretty sure he means to Sterling-Cooper. Who knows? Roger might get her the job somewhere else! I hope so dearly that stupid army boy doesn't fuck it up. I just want her to be happy. #matthewweinerjoan
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