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New York, 3:56 AM
Wed Nov 11
68 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Image of If_I_Had_a_Poodle If_I_Had_a_Poodle
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    Oy vey. 10 Jews, 50 opinions. My people, my people. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    If_I_Had_a_Poodle was starred If_I_Had_a_Poodle was unstarred
    Image of PetiteGal PetiteGal
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    I feel very badly for non-white Jews (especially Chinese adoptees) who already face issues with their Hebrew school classes and synagogue. What happens if they decide to go on such a trip? Will people there have issues with them eventually marrying the boys (because these girls aren't white)? I mean, in the west, you're more likely to find a Chinese female who is Jewish than a male. Or do they not have issues with ethnicity as long as said individual is Jewish. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Trulymadlyme promoted this comment PetiteGal was starred PetiteGal was unstarred
    Image of HidingInCanada HidingInCanada
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    Couldn't there be a little bit of confusion of cause and effect here?

    Those who go take the Birthright trips generally tend to already be more religious than other Jews, and more religious Jews are more likely to marry within the faith than non-religious Jews. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    NellMood promoted this comment HidingInCanada was starred HidingInCanada was unstarred
    Image of NellMood NellMood
    10/26/09

    @HidingInCanada: I dunno, the few people I know who took the birthright trip took it mostly for the free trip and aren't very religious at all. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    NellMood was starred NellMood was unstarred
    Image of winner winner
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    Can someone explain something to me? If a woman is Jewish, converts to Catholicism, and raises her daughter as a Catholic - does the daughter have to convert back to Judaism before giving birth for her children to be considered Jewish? I guess what I'm asking is whether the religion or the ethnicity is given more credence. And the woman vs. the man as the propagator of the ethnos? I'd appreciate clarification on that too. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    winner was starred winner was unstarred
    Image of dj_chick dj_chick
    10/26/09

    @winner: Generally speaking, no, she's Jewish. She might want to go through an Intro to Judaism course to get a nice grip on things, but would she have to go through the whole process? Nope ... unless she's got some wacky Rabbi. (If anyone wants to correct me on this, I won't be offended.) Plenty of Reform and Reconstructionist congregations will accept someone who had a Jewish father, but not a Jewish mother, without conversion. The whole thing can get so very complicated. I converted, so my children, no matter what, will be considered Jewish. Unless you talk to an Orthodox Rabbi. Even though did everything required for conversion, they would most likely say that mine isn't valid. Personally, I'd say that's between me and G-d, but whatev. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    dj_chick was starred dj_chick was unstarred
    Image of Tchotchke Tchotchke
    10/26/09

    @winner: Oh, and the woman as the propagator of the religion thing is very archaic and dates back to a time when it was (sometimes) difficult to determine the lineage of a child. Without genetic testing, it was easiest to say that if a mother was Jewish, then her children were as well. It's more difficult to use that logic if you're using the father's lineage. So, basically, women are skanky skanks, so who knows who the father is? Better go with the mom. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Trulymadlyme promoted this comment Tchotchke was starred Tchotchke was unstarred
    Image of winner winner
    10/26/09

    @dj_chick: Interesting - that seem sto be in line with what I've heard. It's actually my grandmother who converted from Judaism to Catholicism pre WWII when her parents moved to Italy. A friend who converted to Judaism for marriage was trying to tell me that I would be looked upon more favorably even though I was raised Catholic. Another (Jewish) friend disagreed. Thanks for helping to clear that up!

    @Tchotchke: Hahaha - skank you very much! I figured it was dated but have heard it perpetuated by many of my Jewish friends - and then only because they'd heard it from someone, most likely a parent or relative. Thanks for the clarification! #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith promoted this comment winner was starred winner was unstarred
    Image of Trulymadlyme Trulymadlyme
    10/26/09

    @Tchotchke: actually a big reason for this was due to nomadic culture and the divide between men who herd and women who farmed on land. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Trulymadlyme was starred Trulymadlyme was unstarred
    Image of Tchotchke Tchotchke
    10/26/09

    @Trulymadlyme: Ah, I'm sure that's part of it. Would you mind telling me more about that? It sounds really interesting.

    The books that I have read on Jewish conversion, and what a Rabbi told me, concerned the question of genetics and how it was more practical to use the mother as a means of classification. But! I am sure that isn't the whole picture. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Tchotchke was starred Tchotchke was unstarred
    Image of Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
    10/26/09

    @winner: Ooh, my friend's Italian Catholic mum converted to Judaism to marry her Russian Jewish dad, and as such, my friend is and was raised Jewish. Her identity problem is fascinating: despite her mother's conversion and her Jewish upbringing and her father's Jewy (her term, not mine) European background, she is hesitant to identify herself or even be identified as Jewish. Apparently she had a childhood of being told by other kids that she wasn't Jewish enough cos her mum was a convert. So she feels torn between what she 'is', and what she feels she 'should be'.

    Kids can be such dicks, and it sucks when they pick attitudes up from their parents and repeat 'em. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith was starred Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith was unstarred
    Image of Trulymadlyme Trulymadlyme
    10/26/09

    @Tchotchke: I am East African and (full disclosure) Muslim.

    My tribe which lived in East Africa forever was indeed Jewish at a certain point and I am oddly, Jewish, in terms of Genetics. Which for the fucked up racist Western issues I add.

    I learned this because of participating in a medical study that involved in this. [en.wikipedia.org]

    And if my wonky heritage can cure this, more power. I just try to balance it with Ethiopian Jews who have gotten the shaft.
     Reply
    Edited by Trulymadlyme at 10/26/09 10:58 PM Trulymadlyme was starred Trulymadlyme was unstarred
    Image of roxythekiller roxythekiller
    10/27/09

    @Trulymadlyme: The way Ethiopian Jews are marginalized is shameful. And, hey, fucked up genetics is what makes a Jew a Jew and a Muslim a Muslim. When it comes to racist Western issues, many Westerners just don't understand that "Muslim" and "Jew" intersect in countless ways. Heck, even our religions, foods, and religious languages are related.

    The result is people reducing Middle Eastern politics to a football match. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Trulymadlyme promoted this comment roxythekiller was starred roxythekiller was unstarred
    Image of Trulymadlyme Trulymadlyme
    10/27/09

    @roxythekiller: It's sad. What I found really interesting is that the genetics really do intersect among the people living in the Horn of Africa and the Middle East in such a way that we could all be related. Adds a whole level of sad to it. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Trulymadlyme was starred Trulymadlyme was unstarred
    Image of dj_chick dj_chick
    10/27/09

    @winner: I really think it would depend on the denomination (Reform is much more liberal on these issues, as we are on most everything) and even the Rabbi/congregation. You would likely to be welcomed with open arms into my congregation. In another congregation, they'd ask you to convert for full privileges. IMO, It's more about how YOU feel. Sure, I could have continued going to synagogue without ever converting, but I wanted to BE Jewish. I wanted to be able to touch the Torah when it's brought around on Yom Kippur, fully participate in all holidays, etc.

    @Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith: That's why I prefer not to tell people that I converted, though it can be hard to keep it a secret. It's no one's business if I'm "Jewish enough". If I had been born Jewish, but was still exactly as observant as I am now, it would be all good. But as a convert, people who are more observant can often be a bit judgy. :-/ #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    dj_chick was starred dj_chick was unstarred
    Image of winner winner
    10/27/09

    @dj_chick: Lucky for me, I have no interest in being ANY religion. :) #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    winner was starred winner was unstarred
    Image of dj_chick dj_chick
    10/27/09

    @winner: This, too, is an option. ;) It's good that you're keeping track of it though, in case your children or grandchildren someday decide to pursue Judaism. Besides, it's a little bit of your heritage. Nice to acknowledge it. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    dj_chick was starred dj_chick was unstarred
    Image of roxythekiller roxythekiller
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    It's no secret that Birthright Israel encourages people to "marry Jewish"--- being shocked at this is like being shocked that Christians who go to Christian clubs are more likely to marry Christians, or that people who visit the Pope are more likely to marry Catholics. No one is shocked that Muslims who go on pilgrimage to Mecca marry other Muslims, and "Birthright Israel" is no different.

    Most Jews who enter inter-faith marriages don't stay Jewish, which is why these programs exist in the first place. Everyone has the right to practice and maintain their cultue (I come from an inter-faith family, and have grown to understand the importance of this right through firsthand experience.) #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    clevernamehere promoted this comment roxythekiller was starred roxythekiller was unstarred
    Image of clevernamehere clevernamehere
    10/26/09

    @roxythekiller: The analogy doesn't quite work because Birthright is open to completely secular people of Jewish heritage.

    Also, the article says that 60% of intermarried Jews in the Boston area are raising their children Jewish. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    clevernamehere was starred clevernamehere was unstarred
    Image of roxythekiller roxythekiller
    10/27/09

    @clevernamehere: Stress "in Boston." The East Coast has historically been a center for strong religious Jewish communities, but this is not the case all over the United States. Here are statistics derived from studies done by the National Jewish Population Survey: [www.simpletoremember.com] Just to be clear, the survey does not say that Jewish activism is weak--- it isn't. It just shows that the number of Jews doing Jewish activism and religious activity are declining. I'm a supporter of inter-marriage and "doing your own thing," but I'm not for abandoning your roots--- and social activism is part of those roots.

    Where I'm from, many Jews are turning away from Judaism just to fit in with non-Jewish relatives or circles. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    roxythekiller was starred roxythekiller was unstarred
    Image of Pantani Pantani
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    I went on Birthright a few years ago and am surprised to hear about the lottery. The reason I ended up going was because I was walking down my campus quad and someone was signing people up to go on Birthright, so I put my name down. There was an application to fill out where I had to put down the name of my Rabbi, but it was pretty easy to do, so I was kind of astounded when a couple months later I was boarding a plane to Israel for free.

    The trip itself was amazing, considering it was free, but I didn't like the people I met very much. They were very cliquey and kind of stuck-up and they took Judaism so seriously that it kind of creeped me out (could be just my trip though, it was a Hillel group) . My father is not Jewish, but my mother's parents were Orthodox and I was kind of raised Reform, and nothing about my experience thus far as a Jew really applied to that sort of atmosphere. The parts I found most creepy were the speeches at the end where they talked about "Jew haters" and the pamphlet someone gave me called "Why Marry Jewish."

    With that said, four years later I am seriously dating a nice Jewish boy and have started taking my faith more seriously. Anecdotally, I have heard that many people who went on Birthright came back and became more religious/broke up with their bf or gf. One girl I heard broke up with her Jewish boyfriend because he wasn't religious enough for her.

    I think that besides the proselytizing, being in an environment where you can see and meet so many Jews who embrace and celebrate Judaism sends a very powerful subliminal message. A lot of Jews are the product of a diaspora who grew up without a sense of religious community, or the pressure of social conformity, so they began to see Judaism as out-of-date and backwards, especially the part about marrying within the faith. Bagels and lox and making fun of your grandma aren't enough to keep you from marrying someone you love. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith promoted this comment Pantani was starred Pantani was unstarred
    Image of Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
    10/26/09

    @Pantani: My friend recommends taking the Birthright: Unplugged tour, or something similar. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith was starred Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith was unstarred
    Image of Pantani Pantani
    10/26/09

    @Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith:

    Yeah, I'm sure I would have had a very different experience on a different trip. For one thing, a lot of people on my trip knew each other already because it was a university Hillel group and I had never set foot in the building until the trip.

    Sadly, I'm 26 now so I think I missed the cut off for future trips :( #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Pantani was starred Pantani was unstarred
    Image of TurnItOff TurnItOff
    10/26/09

    @Pantani: I'm just glad to hear I'm not the only person who didn't like anyone else on their Birthright trip. i didn't go on a very religious trip, so idk how much competing there was about how "jewish" we were, but the kids were so awfully clique-y and mean and totally focused on being popular and getting wasted the entire time. It was awful. If I hadn't extended my trip and had a chance to hang out with extended family and take side trips to other areas/meet other cool people, I would have given up on the Jewish people completely. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith promoted this comment TurnItOff was starred TurnItOff was unstarred
    Image of daradoodle daradoodle
    10/27/09

    @Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith: Birthright Unplugged is really cool, but its separate from the regular trip, and costs money, although it seems totally worth it. There's a birthright trip run by the Union of Progressive Zionists that's way more left-wing/open minded/not focused entirely on drinking and making Jewish babies, but still completely free. I'm not eligible, but I have heard that its awesome. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith promoted this comment daradoodle was starred daradoodle was unstarred
    Image of Pantani Pantani
    10/27/09

    @TurnItOff: You're lucky to have extended family there to visit, that would've been so much of a better experience. My mom actually lived in Israel for 7 years or so, but I had no one to visit.

    Actually, the fact that I heard so much about Israel growing up and then my first trip there was so odd...it made me sad that I couldn't have had more of an "organic" experience. I mean, they wouldn't let us leave the hotel at night and we had to sit around having kind of psychobabble group discussions about Judaism. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Pantani was starred Pantani was unstarred
    Image of Jorie Slodki Jorie Slodki
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    No joke, on my birthright trip they told us that if you meet your spouse on a trip they would pay for your honeymoon in Eilat. Later I actually went to Eilat and found it to be a dogshit ridden Las Vegas on the Red Sea, so I'm ok that I didn't find my spouse then.

    I had the "Don't marry non-Jews" message grilled into me in Hebrew school and it made me really uncomfortable. My teachers and my mom didn't understand my objections. When I said that it was equivalent to saying "don't marry non-whites," my teacher responded that I could find black Jews. When my brother got engaged to a Christian, he felt the need to sit down with my parents and reassure them that they weren't bad Jewish parents because of it.

    I figured that if I dated a Jew, it would be because I'm passionate about my religion and involved in Jewish programs, both attending and leading, so my chances of dating a Jewish guy would be statistically higher. It worked--I met my boyfriend last year at a Hillel event. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    clevernamehere promoted this comment Jorie Slodki was starred Jorie Slodki was unstarred
    Image of TransFat TransFat
    10/26/09

    @Jorie Slodki: They told us the same thing. I wonder what kind of proof they need? They certainly didn't need any proof when my friend, who has no Jewish relatives or ancestry, came with me based solely on his "jewish" sounding last name. Hysterical. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    TransFat was starred TransFat was unstarred
    Image of PrincessOfPower PrincessOfPower
    10/26/09

    @TransFat: one of the founders (i.e. major donors) of birthright used to offer a free honeymoon to people who met on birthright and got married. this happened to a former coworker of mine, and she was offered a trip to one of his vacation homes in the bahamas or some such area. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    TransFat promoted this comment PrincessOfPower was starred PrincessOfPower was unstarred
    Image of bigapplemama bigapplemama
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    It is not an issue of keeping bloodlines "pure." It is the very real threat of being assimilated out of existence which would be a tragedy for any culture. If people are committed to raising Jewish children and passing on the joy of Jewish traditions I don't care who they marry. This is a very touchy topic for people but if we truly value diversity we have to maintain diversity. The world would be a much less interesting place if we were all the same. Birthright (and most other outreach programs) are trying to help Jews find a compelling way to connect to Judaism. I applaud their efforts and feel thankful that there are people willing to use their money to give Jews a positive "Jewish" experience. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    bigapplemama was starred bigapplemama was unstarred
    Image of Fizzy77 Fizzy77
    10/26/09

    @bigapplemama: Thank you. It's not about "bloodlines" it's about beliefs and keeping a culture alive. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    BeckySharper promoted this comment Fizzy77 was starred Fizzy77 was unstarred
    Image of BeckySharper BeckySharper
    10/26/09

    @Fizzy77: If it were just about maintaining Jewish religion and culture, rabbis would perform Jewish marriages for an interfaith couple who was willing to raise their children as Jews. However, they do not. Not in the Orthodox movement, and not in the State of Israel.

    I've been a practicing Jew my entire life, had a bat mitzvah, am an active member of my congregation. I could not be more culturally and religiously Jewish, yet Israel does not recognize me as a Jew--solely on the basis of bloodlines. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    BeckySharper was starred BeckySharper was unstarred
    Image of Fizzy77 Fizzy77
    10/26/09

    @BeckySharper: You are a practicing Jew yet you haven't converted? Your father was jewish but not your mother I assume. If you convert then they will recognize you. And there's no bloodline involved. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Fizzy77 was starred Fizzy77 was unstarred
    Image of JosephFinn JosephFinn
    10/26/09

    @Fizzy77: She shouldn't have too; she was raised by a Jewish parent (I assume), has been a Jew her entire life, and the Orthodox considering a her a non-Jew based on her mother's bloodline is ridiculous. The idea of her "converting" to what she already is is a farce. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    BeckySharper promoted this comment JosephFinn was starred JosephFinn was unstarred
    Image of BeckySharper BeckySharper
    10/26/09

    @Fizzy77: To say I have to convert to Judaism when I was born into a Jewish family, raised Jewish and practice the Jewish faith is fucking ridiculous.

    It's like telling me I need to apply for US citizenship when I was born here and so were the past 5 generations of my family.
     Reply
    Edited by BeckySharper at 10/26/09 10:14 PM BeckySharper was starred BeckySharper was unstarred
    Image of goodcheapfun goodcheapfun
    10/27/09

    @bigapplemama: How do you separate the bloodline from the culture considering that being Jewish rests in the mother's bloodline and not in religiosity (being an atheist does not remove one's Judaism). #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    BeckySharper promoted this comment goodcheapfun was starred goodcheapfun was unstarred
    Image of HereComesMyBaby HereComesMyBaby
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    Eh, marrying Jews is boring.

    I will now share my favorite graffiti that I see around Tel Aviv: "Make beautiful babies; marry an Arab!" #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    HereComesMyBaby was starred HereComesMyBaby was unstarred
    Image of daradoodle daradoodle
    10/27/09

    @HereComesMyBaby:

    That is my icon. and also my favorite graffiti/life motto.

    (A close second, although it was actually a sticker- 'lama lo beivrit', written out in English letters. My friend stole it from outside the column that music store on Sheinkin. I died.) #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    HereComesMyBaby promoted this comment daradoodle was starred daradoodle was unstarred
    Image of HereComesMyBaby HereComesMyBaby
    10/27/09

    @daradoodle: Ah! If you mean Krembo, I love that music store and it reminds me of John Cusack's music store in High Fidelity. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    HereComesMyBaby was starred HereComesMyBaby was unstarred
    Image of daradoodle daradoodle
    10/27/09

    @HereComesMyBaby: Yes! I always get it confused with Haozen Hashlishit, next to Dizengoff Center, even though they are completely different. It does remind me of High Fidelity, I think thats why I love it so much.

    I just reread my previous comment. I fail at grammar. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    daradoodle was starred daradoodle was unstarred
    Image of HereComesMyBaby HereComesMyBaby
    10/27/09

    @daradoodle: I had a bunch of American friends visit me this summer, and I took all of them there to get yelled at by the blond John Cusacky guy and the other dude, who often recommends you shitty music in order to test your reaction and see if you're worthy of actual good music.

    A choice convo at the store:

    (After telling the dude that my friend's dad, who she was buying a CD for, likes the musical Hair): "Hair, what are you talking about, pubic hair? Just choose a goddamn CD already! What's your problem?"

    I love him. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    HereComesMyBaby was starred HereComesMyBaby was unstarred
    Image of daradoodle daradoodle
    10/27/09

    @HereComesMyBaby: That's adorable. I had a long conversation with one of them (I can't remember which, it was during the summer, and I probably had mild heatstroke) about Hakeves Hashisha Asar. I asked about where it was, and he pointed me to it, and then as he was ringing me up he explained to me why this was a very important CD for me to own. I told him that I already did, and that it was a gift for a soon to be born child, and we enthusiastically agreed thats its an essential part of any child's cultural education. Only in Israel could 2 music dorks have an extensive conversation about children's music. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    daradoodle was starred daradoodle was unstarred
    Image of HereComesMyBaby HereComesMyBaby
    10/28/09

    @daradoodle: I personally can talk about Israeli children's music all day. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    HereComesMyBaby was starred HereComesMyBaby was unstarred
    Image of rachellavery rachellavery
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    I went on birthright 10 years ago - as a child of an interfaith marriage i was probably one of their top "targets." The trip really did create in me a love for the country (and this can co-exist with criticsm of its politics) and a renewed emphasis on my jewish background. And i just got engaged to a nice Hindu boy, so....
     Reply
    clevernamehere promoted this comment judgingnora approved this comment rachellavery was starred rachellavery was unstarred
    Image of LadySublue LadySublue
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    Isn't this kind of sad? I mean, being proud of your culture is okay, but to deliberately shut out most of the world as potential mates just doesn't seem right to me. How are Jewish folks allowed to get away with this, when if some other group thought this way, we'd be reaming them right now? #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! promoted this comment LadySublue was starred LadySublue was unstarred
    Image of Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
    10/26/09

    @LadySublue: Ever been to Quebec? I guess the thinking is that if a group has been trod upon enough, they deserve to be overprotective of their heritage or whatever. To be honest I don't think they're the only religious or ethnic group that feels this way, they're just unabashedly vocal about it. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was starred Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was unstarred
    Image of RubyPenelope RubyPenelope
    10/26/09

    @LadySublue: I think a lot of people are reeming them in this comment section right now. No one is forcing anyone from limiting their mates and plenty of people only date people with similar values to them (i.e. vegans who only date other vegans or religious christians who only date religious christians) why is it wrong and offensive when some Jewish people decide to only date other Jewish people who also have strong connection to their faith and culture? #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    clevernamehere promoted this comment RubyPenelope was starred RubyPenelope was unstarred
    Image of Sputnik_Sweetheart Sputnik_Sweetheart
    10/26/09

    @LadySublue: Oh no! Not reverse Anti-Semitism! #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Sputnik_Sweetheart was starred Sputnik_Sweetheart was unstarred
    Image of Evie Havok Evie Havok
    10/26/09

    @LadySublue: Not really. This is sort of like people who don't want to interracially marriage (of which there are many since 90% of us are going to end up with people of our own race, anyway) . I'm one of those people who willfully chooses not to be romantically involved with those outside of my race because I want to preserve my traditions, values, and ethnicity. That won't happen if I marry outside of my race. I think it's the same for (some) jewish people. Because of their low population in the US they want to conserve and make their religion/culture thrive. There's nothing wrong with that although it does limit the pool of men/women you can date. *shrugs* Let's not be hypocritical, either, most of us, in the end, will wind up with people like ourselves (of the same race, culture, socioeconomic level, etc.). #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Evie Havok was starred Evie Havok was unstarred
    Image of BeckySharper BeckySharper
    10/26/09

    @Evie Havok: There's a big difference between "winding up with people like ourselves" and being forbidden to have relationships with people who aren't. #birthrighttrips
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    BeckySharper was starred BeckySharper was unstarred
    Image of CrabbyPants CrabbyPants
    10/26/09

    @Evie Havok: I have a similar perspective. As a very secular Jew with a mother who converted to Judaism, I wouldn't particularly limit people I would date based on their religion, but if I were to get married and have kids, I would certainly raise them Jewish. And the truth is, most people I know who were raised in half-Jewish families revert back to the majority religion (Christianity here) because it's easier/it's what everyone else is celebrating. I don't think it has anything to do with "racial purity" as someone said down below, but a desire to ensure that Jews survive, something that is actually seriously in question. Marrying into the majority, in the United States or in Israel (where the majority is Palestinian) means that Jews become a further divided and voiceless minority. I don't want to be alarmist, really, but assimilation is not the answer. At least if you agree with Hannah Arendt in the Rise of Totalitarianism. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    clevernamehere promoted this comment CrabbyPants was starred CrabbyPants was unstarred
    Image of clevernamehere clevernamehere
    10/26/09

    @RubyPenelope: I don't think anyone objects to any individual Jew choosing to marry within their faith.

    What people are bothered by is that there is an educational/cultural group that pushes in group marriage. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    clevernamehere was starred clevernamehere was unstarred
    Image of clevernamehere clevernamehere
    10/26/09

    @CrabbyPants: Do you mean The Origins of Totalitarianism? Arendt's point was that Judaism served as a proxy for a lot of anger, but it could have been anyone.Assimilation in Nazi Germany mainly consisted of giving up outward manifestations of Judaism while often remaining a distinct community, assimilation through intermarriage is a different beast. If lots of people have cousins who are married to someone from a minority group it could be protective. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Edited by clevernamehere at 10/26/09 6:30 PM clevernamehere was starred clevernamehere was unstarred
    Image of PrincessOfPower PrincessOfPower
    10/26/09

    @LadySublue: Your comment is ignorant and offensive. Please go read something about the history and culture of the Jewish people, before you make blanket statements like this after reading a 2 sentence sound bite posted on a blog about "celebrity, sex, and fashion."
    Also, do you honestly, truly believe that people in other religions don't encourage/force/kindly suggest that their kids marry others in the same group? Have you been living under a rock?
     Reply
    Edited by PrincessOfPower at 10/26/09 6:45 PM PrincessOfPower was starred PrincessOfPower was unstarred
    Image of rikki-tikki-tavi rikki-tikki-tavi
    10/26/09

    @PrincessOfPower: Just because other people do it, doesn't mean it's right.
    Then again, I might be totally biased because I come from a interracial and interfaith marriage (parents from completely different cultures) and I've loved every moment of it and cherish all the traditions. Plus my relatives have never said anything negative to my parents about their marriage even though they come from traditional and religious backgrounds.

    If some one criticizes white people for being against interracial marriage, it doesn't mean their argument is invalid just because there are plenty of black people who are also against interracial marriage. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    That_little_attention_whore promoted this comment rikki-tikki-tavi was starred rikki-tikki-tavi was unstarred
    Image of Julie Bertrand Julie Bertrand
    10/26/09

    @Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!: Um, what? I say (and repeat) for what feels like the 100th time: not all French Quebecers are proud rabid separatists who have Bill 101 tattoed on their biceps. Quite a few of us (and you'll find it's a growing albeit quiet majority) think that the PQ and the OLF and the other nationalistic movements/societies need to seriously dial it down. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    That_little_attention_whore promoted this comment Julie Bertrand was starred Julie Bertrand was unstarred
    Image of RubyPenelope RubyPenelope
    10/26/09

    @clevernamehere: Its also a group that pushes for inclusion of inter-faith families. It isn't a crazed group shoving jewish fundamentalism down people's throats. They are just encouraging what they believe in to young people and they are not even doing it overtly. they are really just providing an opportunity for young Jewish people to meet eachother and hope they fall for eachother or the culture. I just feel we are misrepresenting the mission here #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    RubyPenelope was starred RubyPenelope was unstarred
    Image of That_little_attention_whore That_little_attention_whore
    10/26/09

    @Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!: As a French Canadian, my parents have actually been against (albeit jokingly) us marrying fellow frenchies on the grounds of "inbreeding is bad, mmm'kay?"

    I can understand why someone would want to marry someone within their religion - faith is important to a lot of people, and the idea of marrying within the faith is by no means unique to Judaism. I think the problem is the combination of marry in the faith + dwindling population (you think the Jews have it bad, you should check out the numbers for the Parsis!)

    So, really, it's more about keeping a community intact or even growing. If that's the case, why limit your options to someone in the community when you can bring in some new blood, and make the world your dating pool?

    Or as they say in Utah, you gotta flirt to convert.

    Hey - if it works for the Mormons, I say give it a shot.

    No seriously - in the mind of your average LDS guy or gal in Utah, the fact that the nice young man/young lady you have your eye on happens to be a gentile is not going to stop you from your dream Temple wedding - au contraire, it's up to you to use your charms to bring them to the light.

    Converting to French Canadian is a bit of a long shot (it is a complicated ritual involving maple syrup, hockey sticks, and a tub of poutine. I personally am unqualified to administer it - I think it's because I'm a Leafs fan - but I digress) but converting to Judaism is, for some people, a realistic option (some sects are more accepting of converts than others, I realize that) and could address both the relatively small dating pool for the marriage-minded AND help counter the problem of declining numbers.

    (And seriously, talking of LDS conversion, I knew people who converted, not because their significant other wanted to raise their kids LDS - which they could do regardless - but because their significant other wanted a Temple wedding - which their own relatives would be unable to attend. Anyway)

    I'm not saying the Jews should start sending off their young men to bring in new souls (not that I would object if some cute Jewish boys showed up at my door, arr arr) but maybe the concept of marrying within the community could be augmented with the option of bringing someone new into the community. But, this would also involve a conscious effort to be welcoming and accepting of converts, and treat them as equals to anyone else in the community. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    That_little_attention_whore was starred That_little_attention_whore was unstarred
    Image of That_little_attention_whore That_little_attention_whore
    10/26/09

    @Julie Bertrand: Yeah, I'm sick of "French Canadian = separatist moron" stereotypes. Let's stick to something more accurate like "French Canadian = rare genetic disorders." #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    That_little_attention_whore was starred That_little_attention_whore was unstarred
    Image of CrabbyPants CrabbyPants
    10/26/09

    @clevernamehere: Yes, I mean the Origins of Totalitarianism. Silly me, I was not paying attention. I was talking more about how she talked about how there was no entire identity or power as a group, although they were distinct, which left them vulnerable to persecution. The Jews are and will be a minority; And if intermarriage means more Jews and more exposure to the Jewish faith, that's great and I mean it. I am especially all for conversion if one feels so minded. However, marrying into the majority for many Jews does not carry on the Jewish faith or customs. I know plenty of people whose grandparents were Jewish but have now reverted to Protestantism or whatever is the majority belief system of the area. If everyone's cousin was married to someone Jewish, would the faith continue or would it be so blended into the Christian majority as to be meaningless? I already know plenty of full Jews with Christmas trees.The desire to remember or pass on a set of beliefs or traditions based on a religious background is not meant to be based on race or prejudice, but a desire to pass on beliefs that were important to you to your grandchildren. I think that we should be able to accept such a view and such a choice; this is a choice like any other, that has to do with a system of belief. I don't know what choices I would make, nor would I judge someone for marrying outside their faith, go for it. Rather, I think these people are not just crazy racists, but they have a legitimate point that I shall not damn them for introducing to others. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    CrabbyPants was starred CrabbyPants was unstarred
    Image of Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
    10/27/09

    @Julie Bertrand: I meant that as, not quite the opposite, but not exactly in the spirit you seemed to take it. Certain laws in Quebec would be unthinkable if they weren't created or enforced to preserve Canada's French-speaking minorities, just as Jewish people may get more of a pass when they argue against inter-faith marriage than people from religions or cultures with less of a history of oppression and being the target of bigotry (not to mention genocide). Which may explain why the two groups tend to butt heads in Montreal when it comes to culture and language. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was starred Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was unstarred
    Image of clevernamehere clevernamehere
    10/27/09

    @CrabbyPants: I think there are two issues though- ethically Jewish and religiously Jewish.

    I don't think intermarriage risks a second Holocaust. I generally agree with Arendt that the isssues that lead to genocide have little to do with the race, religion or culture of the scapegoated. Also, in Nazi Germany, intermarriage was protective. Intermarried Jews had a very high survival rate and many managed to make it through the whole war openly living in Germany.

    The fact that Birthright includes completely non-religious Jews makes it more ethnically based than religiously based. Its a little like if some Irish organization was giving free trips to Belfast in the 80s to encourage marrying Irish people and supporting the IRA. Obviously the IRA and the Israeli government aren't really comparable and the the situation in Northern Ireland had a significant religious component, but its the closest situation I can come up with.

    On the religious side, the article actually says that in Boston, intermarried couples were more likely to raise their kids Jewish than anything else (60%). I'm also not so sure the majority culture is the reason so many intermarried Jews do not raise Jewish children. Up until fairly recently, intermarriage was so frowned upon that intermarried children weren't welcomed. There is still an element of this- I just heard of a wedding between a man who was raised Modern Orthodox and a non-Jewish woman- half his family refused to come to the justice of the peace wedding, her entire family was supportive. I would be surprised if whatever children they have are raised Jewish since the whole incident must have been very alienating. Also, if you're intermarrying you're probably not super religious to begin with.

    As for the co-mingling of cultures- its inevitable. Judaism has already been influenced by other cultures. Food is an obvious example- a lot of what is considered Jewish- bagels, lox, challah, etc. is related to what gentiles were eating in Eastern Europe.

    I don't think Birthright is evil, but I do think there is an off putting undercurrent. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    clevernamehere was starred clevernamehere was unstarred
    Image of Superrrdupa Superrrdupa
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    This past summer, one of my best friends was dumped after her boyfriend of almost five years came back from his Birthright trip. Although he says he didn't mean it, at the time he did tell her that the fact that she wouldn't raise his children Jewish and that she was not Jewish herself meant that he could not marry her.

    Maybe I'm stupid, but I was shocked! My boyfriend is Jewish, and he says that this is what these trips are "for"... I really don't want to believe that, but it's hard to ignore! #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Superrrdupa was starred Superrrdupa was unstarred
    Image of Superrrdupa Superrrdupa
    10/26/09

    @Superrrdupa: By the way, after reading some other comments I would like to add that both my boyfriend and my friend's ex-boyfriend are not religious Jews and do not keep kosher in any way.

    I can understand why someone would want to keep their religion and cultural heritage alive, but if you yourself aren't connected with Judaism beyond blood, why would it matter if your wife was Jewish/raised your children Jewish? Forgive me if this sounds patronizing; it's an honest question. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Superrrdupa was starred Superrrdupa was unstarred
    Image of FotoVerite FotoVerite
    10/26/09

    @Superrrdupa: Birthright can be very insidious. I say this as a Jew who's been on this. There a lot of cultural and familia pressure to keep pure and be part of the family. Bunch of bullshit. I actually came back wanting to be less of a Jew.

    Just look at Glee. Any other race or culture and it would be incredibly racist. Because Puck's a Jew it's funny.
     Reply
    Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! promoted this comment Edited by FotoVerite at 10/26/09 6:00 PM FotoVerite was starred FotoVerite was unstarred
    Image of Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
    10/27/09

    @FotoVerite: Word on the family pressure. Especially for the sons. I've had friends go through this, and it almost always seems like a lame excuse. Like they were okay having lots of sex and going out for months or even years, but then they remembered the whole heritage thing – kind of makes me wonder if it's just another version of the secular stand-bys 'We want different things' or 'I'm not ready to settle down.' #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was starred Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was unstarred
    Image of TransFat TransFat
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    This is absolutely, one hundred percent true. I went on Birth Right, and left calling it, Birth Rate (clever I know). There is a function during the trip where every single group touring Israel at the time converge at a convention center in Jerusalem for a "concert" and party. The introduction speaker not so casually mentioned that the program (funded almost primarily from individual donors and not, say, the country or jewish federations) was started to increase the population of Israel. The thought is that if you meet someone on the trip you'll make bitty-Hebrews and move back to Israel. Think of it like a giant J-Date mixer in the homeland.

    We even had a group "Judaic Activity" where we had index cards with life aspirations and had to put them in order of priority. Every group but mine put, "marry a jew" or "raise my children jewish" at the top. It got very heated. Kids were saying that, even if they met and fell in love with someone outside the faith, it could never be serious. Fucking infuriating. Not because I seem to attract ex-Catholics, but because it seems absurd to limit your heart to happiness for any reason.

    And don't even get me started on their views on homosexuality. There were two lovely boys on my trip who kept their relationship secret so they could share rooms as a couple. I was one of a handful who knew about their ruse and it made me so proud that they were giving a big fuck you to the program.

    But hey, this spiritual agnostic got a free trip to a gorgeous country by virtue of the religion of her mom's vagina, so I can't complain can I?
     Reply
    Edited by TransFat at 10/26/09 5:14 PM TransFat was starred TransFat was unstarred
    Image of FotoVerite FotoVerite
    10/26/09

    @TransFat: I complained in a previous post. But even I didn't find my experience that bad. Our group was one of the more conservative type. Mayonat. But we missed the giant mixer because of how late we came in. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    TransFat promoted this comment FotoVerite was starred FotoVerite was unstarred
    Image of TransFat TransFat
    10/26/09

    @FotoVerite: Really? That's actually the one I went on. And it's a Modern Orthodox trip (I later found out). When did you go? What bothered me was the constant questioning of my beliefs. One of my leaders took every dinner as a chance to hold a theological and moral debate. It "made her sad that I couldn't embrace MY religion and that I went on the trip because it would bring out my faith. "No" I would say, "I really do not consider myself a Jew religiously though I cannot escape that it is my heritage (not that I'm in any sense trying to)"....A free trip to Israel, even my goyim friends wouldn't balk at that.
     Reply
    Edited by TransFat at 10/26/09 6:09 PM TransFat was starred TransFat was unstarred
    Image of Sputnik_Sweetheart Sputnik_Sweetheart
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    Anyone been on Birthright? One of my friends who did it felt that everyone put blinders on when it came to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, something that frustrated her to no end. I've also tried to talk to a few other people who have gone on Birthright (including my brother) about the conflict and couldn't get an answer more in depth than "Israel is the land of the Jewish people. I got to ride a camel!" I'm curious to hear other people's experiences on the program.

    I'm also going to go ahead and say I am not knocking the program or anyone who goes on it. what I hear about the program is generally very positive. I apologize if I offend anyone.
     Reply
    Edited by Sputnik_Sweetheart at 10/26/09 5:08 PM Sputnik_Sweetheart was starred Sputnik_Sweetheart was unstarred
    Image of HereComesMyBaby HereComesMyBaby
    10/26/09

    @Sputnik_Sweetheart: Birthright glosses over most problems in Israel, but there is one progressive Birthright trip that's worth going on. There are different companies that put on Birthright trips, and they all focus on different aspects of Israel.

    If you're thinking of going, go on the progressive political trip. I don't remember the name of the company, but... google it? #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    HereComesMyBaby was starred HereComesMyBaby was unstarred
    Image of BeckySharper BeckySharper
    10/26/09

    @Sputnik_Sweetheart: There's an excellent program called "Birthright Unplugged" that offers a more balanced, less propagandistic experience--particularly where the Palestinian community is concerned. I'm a big fan of it.#birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Edited by BeckySharper at 10/26/09 5:15 PM BeckySharper was starred BeckySharper was unstarred
    Image of Sputnik_Sweetheart Sputnik_Sweetheart
    10/26/09

    @HereComesMyBaby: I think it is the New Israel Fund. The NIF is an awesome organization that supports progressive issues in Israel and they do run Birthright trips.

    I have at this point aged myself out of the program. I did decide a while ago that I was not going to go to Israel before there was a resolution to the conflict, though. I did try to explain this to a Birthright alum and I might as well have told him I eat babies. He just couldn't understand why I wouldn't want to go on Birthright/to Israel. I was trying to explain my position very politely and he still walked away from me in mid conversation.
     Reply
    Edited by Sputnik_Sweetheart at 10/26/09 5:21 PM Sputnik_Sweetheart was starred Sputnik_Sweetheart was unstarred
    Image of Trulymadlyme Trulymadlyme
    10/26/09

    @Sputnik_Sweetheart: "Israel is the land of the Jewish people. I got to ride a camel!"

    Can I hug you. Because that made me laugh so hard, having literally had the same conversations with friends who as teens went on these trips.

    And even ignoring Palestine, I do have to give a holla to my Ethiopian Jewish peeps who are currently suffering some serious discrimination and strife in Israel, which oddly never was mentioned to my friends during the (~25 people) trips. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Trulymadlyme was starred Trulymadlyme was unstarred
    Image of claraleah claraleah
    10/26/09

    @BeckySharper: I have to disagree that Birthright Unplugged provides a less propagandistic experience. It's still propaganda, just from a more leftist, Palestinian-friendly view point.

    I can only speak for my trip, but we definitely discussed the conflict and the many contradictions inherent in the land of Israel. Did the organizers have an agenda to push? Of course, but the trips are offered to encourage young Jews to be advocates for Israel and to propagate Judaism (by having babies.)

    I also have to disagree that the trip participants are screened and selected based on how receptive they would be to the message. I know unaffiliated, half-Jews that were selected and synagogue-going, full Jews that were wait-listed. If anything they would be more likely to select the unaffiliated, as they are the ones who the organization wants to reach the most.

    It might seem unbelievable that a ten day vacation could be life-changing, but it certainly was for me. After my trip, I decided to return to Israel and am currently working on my master's and studying Hebrew and Arabic. I wasn't brainwashed, but my trip really made me want to explore this beautiful, tragic and often infuriating part of the world. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    meritxell: an erotic life promoted this comment claraleah was starred claraleah was unstarred
    Image of meritxell: an erotic life meritxell: an erotic life
    10/26/09

    @claraleah: I got rejected during the screening process for Birthright and I'm pretty sure it was because they figured I wouldn't be receptive to the message. I can't blame them as I all but said that I'm an atheist, my (Jewish) dad is an atheist, my goy mom is an atheist, and I am just applying because I want a free trip to the Middle East. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    meritxell: an erotic life was starred meritxell: an erotic life was unstarred
    Image of PrincessOfPower PrincessOfPower
    10/26/09

    @Trulymadlyme: it really depends on the trip and it depends on who the counselors were. i was a counselor on 2 trips, and we had basically complete freedom to lead any discussions we wanted to, whether it was about politics, the treatment of minorities, etc. to be honest though, the VAST MAJORITY of trip participants spent every free second drinking themselves into oblivion, and thus couldn't care less about having a serious discussion about anything. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Trulymadlyme promoted this comment PrincessOfPower was starred PrincessOfPower was unstarred
    Image of Trulymadlyme Trulymadlyme
    10/26/09

    @PrincessOfPower: Yeah, this was my impression. While there are indeed groups that seem to focus on the religion and social justice aspect, every single one of my friends who did these sorts of trips made it seem like it was crazy boozing, partying, and hooking up. And I'm not throwing stones, y'all! My Chinese-American roommate and her sister were sent from Oklahoma to Taiwan for cultural cruises, which she dubbed "The Love Boat." While there was language and cultural instruction, a big part of the trip was just kicking it. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Trulymadlyme was starred Trulymadlyme was unstarred
    Image of HereComesMyBaby HereComesMyBaby
    10/27/09

    @Sputnik_Sweetheart: Hmm, may I ask, why not come to Israel until the end of the conflict? You could go to Palestine too if you wanted to support the Palestinian economy.

    I personally like to travel to areas of conflict, but that's just me! #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    HereComesMyBaby was starred HereComesMyBaby was unstarred
    Image of claraleah claraleah
    10/27/09

    @meritxell: an erotic life: Did you get outright rejected? Or did you get waitlisted? I know they have a lot more people applying than there are spots to fill. I do know they ask that people who apply not be practitioners of other religions even if they have Jewish heritage/ blood. To be honest, I don't understand the assertions that Birthright only wants affiliated, practicing Jews on their trips. It wouldn't make much sense to "preach to the choir." In fact most, affiliated, practicing Jews don't even qualify because they've already been on organized trips to Israel. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    claraleah was starred claraleah was unstarred
    Image of Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
    10/26/09

    In reply to No Such Thing As A Free Trip
    I had no idea people were changing their views in between riding camels, dressing like douchebags and videotaping every fucking thing. #birthrighttrips
     Reply
    Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was starred Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was unstarred
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