Issues like this really cement why reproductive choice and access have to remain front and center in feminism. Until women can count on retaining their jobs, not going broke and having partners share child care, there is absolutely no way to both gain full equality and keep the human race going.
It also makes me even angrier when people think they should decide whether or not women should be forced to give birth, when even professional, upper class women in secure relationships get a raw deal. How do they think Wal-Mart employees who broke the condom during a one night stand will do?
Lets not even consider the stay at home mom back to the law factor...
Lawyers view you as a traitor if you leave the law. I know because I did this and have been rejected for any legal job I've applied to. Granted, there could be any number of things - but having spoken to others, I've shown my lack of loyalty to the field by choosing to do something else for awhile. Lawyers are cliquey like that, and in this economy its even more pronounced. Even with connections. At least in an oversaturated market like the one where I live. Blah.
And the fun part is? Even staying in my current field (within the publishing industry) is rough because HR screeners throw out my resume because of the law degree. I've tested it: only call backs I've ever gotten for non legal interviews came when I've left off any traces of law degree.
@tankearae: I hear you loud and clear. My experience was, graduate from law school, job at firm, hate it - try for years to get out of law (believing the whole "you can do anything with a law degree" advice I got). One person actually called me and said, I'm not calling to offer you an interview, just wondering why in the world you are applying for this job you have a law degree.(no joke!)
Finally, I went BACK to school again, to switch to planning, start with an entry level job and I'm SO glad I did, have no desire to go back but I still get the questions.
A few years ago, I got laid off from one planning job and was going to temp agencies and two of them suggested I leave the legal experience off the resume!
I think that law is a weird world and peopel outside of it dont really get why a lawyer wouldnt want to work as a lawyer (they think you just need a job until you find one at a law firm) but also that so many people go to graduate school now that people look for specific degrees if you want to change careers without starting at the bottom again.
I always thought I would opt out for a few years when it came time to have kids but I ended up staying. Its such a personal decision, there is no right answer except what feels right for you.
@didntmeanto: The entire "do anything with a law degree!!" line is just...so...the opposite of the truth, and its bitten many people in the ass, including me who weren't really sure why they went to law school in the first place. I certainly don't have anyone to blame but myself for this, but I find it funny that I seem to be being punished by other potential employers for what was really a misguided decision.
I've joked that some people get a DUI when young and stupid...I did worse by getting a J.D.. ;p
This whole aside, well, aside..agree w/the on point point at the end of your point. Wow. I'm not much for words this am...
Making the choice to stay home with the kids sometimes is more complicated and difficult than this story or some commenters believe. A good friend did choose to stay home, after considering that with day care and commuting costs, she'd be just above break even. The little bit of money was hard to justify that much time away from her family. In the end, she decided it was not in the best interest of her family to continue working. Yes, she tried freelancing, but again without babysitting she couldn't find time to fit in the work and often the work barely paid for babysitting. Add a second kid and it is that much more complicated--and expensive. In an ideal world, people wouldn't have to trade family for work or vice versa. Until that happens, women will continue to have to make such choices.
@Rooo sez BISH PLZ: Good point. Men I know don't see it as their problem. And it largely isn't. Men who have kids don't face the scrutiny women do. I wasn't put on a trial out of town because I have a baby - no one cared about putting a guy with a baby one month younger than mine on a different out-of-town trial.
@Rooo @Maritsa: That's why I have trouble seeing "opting out" as a real choice. Because it's not men who are deciding to stay home and raise kids. By and large, it's the people who are always held responsible for caring for children. And now these women are finding that it's not so easy to start over, which of course sucks, but I feel like they wasted the past few years in the sense that they allowed themselves to believe that they were lucky. When instead they could have hitched their wagon to the cause shared by single moms, working-class moms, and the rest of the people who wish women could have it both ways like men do. Basically, my hope is that now that they see how hard it can be, they will use some of their remaining power and influence to get other powerful and influential people to realize that working mothers get a raw deal. Instead of just helping themselves to whatever is left.
what doesn't get mentioned a lot: when opt-out wives are in shitty marriages they'd like to leave, but have a depressingly good idea of the economic struggle awaiting them, so they stay and put up with their husband's crap. Now I don't know Jenny Sanford's story, but I'm wondering if her "integrity" only kicked in when her husband's affair became public and they separated. Lots of women turn a blind eye prior to infidelity if they feel financially unable to leave.
This is the kind possibility feminists like to discuss in the endless SAHM debates, but so many women don't want to hear it. When your loving husband promises to support you and be faithful forever and forever, of course you believe it, you don't have a time machine to see 20 years into the future. But financial inequality can cause one nasty power imbalance in a marriage gone sour.
@Pantra: I know a couple like this. It's awful to watch. Actually now that I think of it, I know two. I don't specifically know that it's the financial situation causing them to stay with men who cheat on them (which they are doing), but I have to guess it's a part.
I would love to stop working until my kids are in elementary school and stay home with them. But I haven't done so for this very reason. Dropping out of my field for 5-6 years would be career suicide, and would greatly affect my family's income for many years beyond that.
@Rosie's Revenge: I think this just proves that despite all the talk about family values and all the comments about the importance of mothering, our culture does not really value families or mothers or even simply parents and children.
@banana_grabber: That. In the proverbial nutshell. Without decent childcare or parental leave policies, any "family values" talk is just a lot of noise.
That's not exactly a comfortable discussion, though, in American politics. Even in progressive circles, there's a lot of rhetoric, but no actual progression. Funny, that.
This is why, if I can help it, I would never leave the work force to stay home and raise kids. Besides the fact I would go crazy being home all the time, I learned from my divorced mom (and plenty other personal cases) to NEVER depend on anyone for your financial security. you make your own money, you spend your own money. point blank.
@bess marvin, girl detective: This is something I learned from my mother as well. NEVER DEPEND ON A PARTNER'S salary. I don't care if he's a gazillionaire it could all go up in smoke at any moment. I wonder how many women who choose to stay at home came from parental situations that were extremely stable. I've never met a girl from a single parent household that would ever dream of being a SAHM.
The bottom line is never depend on a man for your financial security. Even if you are happily married to the most wonderful guy on the planet (I am, by the way). Never in a million years would my husband ever leave me, but I could support myself should something unforseen happen. I wish they would teach girls to be self-sufficient even if they have children and the husband/father decides to up and leave. It's definitely not ok for the husband/father to one day just drop his responsibilities. However, I know many women who spend way too much time and energy complaining about the "deadbeat bastard" that left them rather than builing a life and career that will benefit her and her children. This is also why I think public education should extend further than high school.
@queen_caribbean: True, but if you lose your job and cannot get another one, you have to rely on your spouse. I am in that situation and it sucks, but luckily, my husband is supportive, not just financially, and understands my frustration. These hard times are testing a lot of relationships and it is tough for many.
@MissFiFi: right. I mean obviously sometimes you have no choice. But there are women out there (I'm friends with one on facebook!) who intentionally quit to be stay at home. I'm not judging that choice, but I do think that can be a perilous choice to make.
@MissFiFi: but these stories don't touch on women who lost their jobs so much as women who made the conscious decision to stop working for an extended period of time thus making their reentry into the work market harder.
@bluebears: I have to admit it is hard for me to muster up a ton of sympathy for those women, absent a radical change in circumstances like a spouse leaving you.
The difficulty of getting back into the workforce should have been something they thought about then. I would think most of them did and decided it was worth it to them. You can't, unfortunately, have it both ways. I work, and therefore I don't get to spend all the time I want with my kid. They don't work, therefore, they are going to face some negative consequences to their careers should they choose to resume them.
@Maritsa: I sympathize in that I understand that it is an extremly difficult situation to be in. But I don't think it's inevitable, or even particularly unfair. If I'm doing the hiring, it is perfectly reasonable to go with the candidate who has spent the last few years performing the job duties that I am hiring for, rather than somebody who spent the last however many years driving kids around. Thems the breaks.
My mother actively shunned work while she was married to my dad. She thought being a wife and mother were full-time occupations. My dad wanted her to pull in some income (we were poor), and she refused. They got a divorce, and she was stuck with no career training, no marketable skills, and no plan. Suffice it to say, I am intimately familiar with the taste of government cheese and peanut butter.
@Maritsa: It is about choices, some forced on you and some you consciously make. I cannot imagine having no skill set whatsoever and then being forced to find work. That would suck.
@bluebears: I agree. I have seen some Christian Woman blogs who talk about taking care of the home & kids. It is great, but you can't get paid for it and employers do not look at child rearing as needing special skills. Though they should to some extent.
@MissFiFi: I agree, I'm specifically talking about the "opt out" people, who were highly educated and qualified women who chose to leave the workforce to raise their kids. They had valuable skill sets that have now become somewhat outdated, and they have big gaps in their CVs - that wasn't exactly unforeseeable.
I do have some sympathy, but I just don't see it as particularly unfair. If, for example, a woman left a BigLaw job, it's naive to think she could just slip back in, because there are better candidates out there (especially now). She's probably going to have to go to a non-profit, or maybe local government or a very small firm to rebuild her skills.
@queen_caribbean: I've just started re-evaluating my thoughts on salary-earning in marriage, and started looking at the fact that I may end up taking some time off work to be with kids (still in the future, at this point, all hypothetical).
I always assumed I'd never depend on anyone for an income or financial security, and thought that was very important. But I've ended up with a man who has more earning power than I could ever dream of or aspire to in my field (and enough to quite easily support a family), but conversely, less time to be there for a family. When I pictured myself working, I pictured myself and my spouse each doing their bit with the raising of the kids. But if he's always on call, I want to be able to provide a source of constancy in my kids' lives.
So I've started playing with this idea, and, let me tell you, my friends look at me like I have two heads or that I've suggested that, really, having the vote is a big strain on the female mind. It's not an arrangement I'd enter into lightly, and I'd ensure that we had some sort of binding legal agreement in place before I tendered resignation, but I tend to think people have started to demonize the idea of viewing marriage as an actual partnership... I know it can end badly, but I'm hesitant to enter into it with that view to the end...
@JoStockton: My husband is actually in your position. He was laid off in December and we decided to have him stay home part-time with our son while he goes back to get a master's. My earning capacity is a lot more than his - when he was employed, I earned four times his salary.
Marriage is a partnership and if you decide that you staying home is what's best for your family, that's not crazy. But you (general "you," not you specifically) have to take care of yourself.
@Maritsa: I'm really thankful that my partner is really aware of what goes into both his career and the ramifications of my staying home on my earning power. And he is already very open to a legal arrangement where a set amount of money would go into a separate RRSP for me, because i have a deep and paralyzing fear of being old, divorced, and without a pot to piss in.
It's a delicate balance between "I love you and want to do this because it's what is best for us and our future" and "Girl's (75 year old self) gotta eat". The conversation isn't without it's landmines.
@JoStockton: That is so great. It's really making me think. We need to roll over my husband's 401(k) into an IRA and put money into it every year. I would want that for me or any woman I care about.
I hate the fact that he sometimes refers to it as "my money." It's OUR money, but I know it's hard for him to adjust to the situation.
See this is kind of where I'm at as well. I do have a bit of sympathy in the sense that women, ideally, shouldn't be punished for what they choose to in their relationships, or the choices they make for the benefit of their family. However, as a business woman, I understand why they're not getting hired, and I agree with it.
I wonder if this has anything to do with my mom becoming a teacher. Probably not, but she did often remark on how she liked having summers off with her kids. And she could usually pick me up after school, since we got out at the same time. Although she often had a lot of work to do after the kids left, and sometimes had bus duty. But for several years I was on the same campus as her, and other times I could ride the bus to her campus and then sit and read or whatever until she got done.
What I'm trying to say is, I wonder if one reason so many women go into teaching is because it's a "pink-collar" job. My mom busts her ass, but it wouldn't surprise me if some people see it as a "mom job," where you can bring in a check without "neglecting" your kids. I think that's bullshit. I also think that no matter what you do as a mom, society at large will make you feel guilty about it.
I think this show is an interesting concept, but I'll be really curious to see if she stays or leaves her husband. A lot of wives, political or not, wouldn't be able to jump back into work and would have to stay with the cheater for the income. But that's moot in this case because he resigns and goes to prison, right?
@lalaland13: My mom was a single mom and a teacher. I think being a teacher allowed her to have the same schedule as her kids. We had the same days off and I could go to her classroom after school to wait for her (when we were at the same school). The summers spent together gave us all an oppotunity to spend quality time doing things other than school work. Stuff she wanted to do with us, not that she had to do. Sure we didn't have a lot of money but we were together which even as a kid I understood was more imporant. I always thought that if I was a single mom I would go into teaching for this same reason.
My father never missed or was even late with a child support payment; in fact, he kept them up right through my college graduation. It saddens me that more men don't follow his example for their children.
I understand having children is the main reason women leave the jobmarket, but a career break due to ill health, redundancy or to care for an elderly parent or ill relative can have devastating effects on job prospects too.
All of these things are likely to increase in the current economic climate, so I hope women work together on combatting discrimination instead of seeing this as a mom/non-mom thing.
@gherkinfiend:
What is the "discrimination"? Unless a potential employer is penalizing you specifically because you were out of the workforce to raise children vs illness or other reasons, there's no discrimination.
My mom had to work really hard after my parents' divorce, but she did have a pretty nice settlement to help her out with that. She worked her way through nursing school on a tiny teacher's aide salary, and now she's doing nursing full time.
Another, unrecognized group, are the middle aged women who dropped out of the workforce to take care of sick family members. In this economy, it's impossible to opt back in. Mrs. Sanford is fortunate to have a story to sell. No one is interested in my story (taking care of sick husband) or the stories of many of my friends (taking care of parents or other family members). I'm not famous, so no one gives a shit about the fact that I've been out of work for nearly 2 years, can't find a job, and now have not only my debt, but my late husband's debt to deal with.
And you're so right. She is probably getting paid a huge advance for her "story" as well as a huge settlement plus child support if they divorce. Not saying she doesn't deserve it, but she's definitely not the norm here. It's incredibly difficult to transition back into the workforce.
@PaintedTrollop: That's awful, I'm sorry. The only way my mom was able to stay employed was because she has her own business with a partner. She took a drastically reduced salary for the two years my dad was sick, but she had something to go back to at least.
09/23/09
It also makes me even angrier when people think they should decide whether or not women should be forced to give birth, when even professional, upper class women in secure relationships get a raw deal. How do they think Wal-Mart employees who broke the condom during a one night stand will do?
09/22/09
Lawyers view you as a traitor if you leave the law. I know because I did this and have been rejected for any legal job I've applied to. Granted, there could be any number of things - but having spoken to others, I've shown my lack of loyalty to the field by choosing to do something else for awhile. Lawyers are cliquey like that, and in this economy its even more pronounced. Even with connections. At least in an oversaturated market like the one where I live. Blah.
And the fun part is? Even staying in my current field (within the publishing industry) is rough because HR screeners throw out my resume because of the law degree. I've tested it: only call backs I've ever gotten for non legal interviews came when I've left off any traces of law degree.
09/23/09
Finally, I went BACK to school again, to switch to planning, start with an entry level job and I'm SO glad I did, have no desire to go back but I still get the questions.
A few years ago, I got laid off from one planning job and was going to temp agencies and two of them suggested I leave the legal experience off the resume!
I think that law is a weird world and peopel outside of it dont really get why a lawyer wouldnt want to work as a lawyer (they think you just need a job until you find one at a law firm) but also that so many people go to graduate school now that people look for specific degrees if you want to change careers without starting at the bottom again.
I always thought I would opt out for a few years when it came time to have kids but I ended up staying. Its such a personal decision, there is no right answer except what feels right for you.
09/23/09
I've joked that some people get a DUI when young and stupid...I did worse by getting a J.D.. ;p
This whole aside, well, aside..agree w/the on point point at the end of your point. Wow. I'm not much for words this am...
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Exactly. It's like changing your last name's a choice. I'll believe it when the people making the choice are men half of the time.
09/22/09
This is the kind possibility feminists like to discuss in the endless SAHM debates, but so many women don't want to hear it. When your loving husband promises to support you and be faithful forever and forever, of course you believe it, you don't have a time machine to see 20 years into the future. But financial inequality can cause one nasty power imbalance in a marriage gone sour.
09/22/09
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That's not exactly a comfortable discussion, though, in American politics. Even in progressive circles, there's a lot of rhetoric, but no actual progression. Funny, that.
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09/22/09
The difficulty of getting back into the workforce should have been something they thought about then. I would think most of them did and decided it was worth it to them. You can't, unfortunately, have it both ways. I work, and therefore I don't get to spend all the time I want with my kid. They don't work, therefore, they are going to face some negative consequences to their careers should they choose to resume them.
09/22/09
My mother actively shunned work while she was married to my dad. She thought being a wife and mother were full-time occupations. My dad wanted her to pull in some income (we were poor), and she refused. They got a divorce, and she was stuck with no career training, no marketable skills, and no plan. Suffice it to say, I am intimately familiar with the taste of government cheese and peanut butter.
09/22/09
09/22/09
09/22/09
I do have some sympathy, but I just don't see it as particularly unfair. If, for example, a woman left a BigLaw job, it's naive to think she could just slip back in, because there are better candidates out there (especially now). She's probably going to have to go to a non-profit, or maybe local government or a very small firm to rebuild her skills.
09/22/09
I always assumed I'd never depend on anyone for an income or financial security, and thought that was very important. But I've ended up with a man who has more earning power than I could ever dream of or aspire to in my field (and enough to quite easily support a family), but conversely, less time to be there for a family. When I pictured myself working, I pictured myself and my spouse each doing their bit with the raising of the kids. But if he's always on call, I want to be able to provide a source of constancy in my kids' lives.
So I've started playing with this idea, and, let me tell you, my friends look at me like I have two heads or that I've suggested that, really, having the vote is a big strain on the female mind. It's not an arrangement I'd enter into lightly, and I'd ensure that we had some sort of binding legal agreement in place before I tendered resignation, but I tend to think people have started to demonize the idea of viewing marriage as an actual partnership... I know it can end badly, but I'm hesitant to enter into it with that view to the end...
09/22/09
Marriage is a partnership and if you decide that you staying home is what's best for your family, that's not crazy. But you (general "you," not you specifically) have to take care of yourself.
09/22/09
It's a delicate balance between "I love you and want to do this because it's what is best for us and our future" and "Girl's (75 year old self) gotta eat". The conversation isn't without it's landmines.
09/22/09
I hate the fact that he sometimes refers to it as "my money." It's OUR money, but I know it's hard for him to adjust to the situation.
09/23/09
See this is kind of where I'm at as well. I do have a bit of sympathy in the sense that women, ideally, shouldn't be punished for what they choose to in their relationships, or the choices they make for the benefit of their family. However, as a business woman, I understand why they're not getting hired, and I agree with it.
09/22/09
Also, I think there are both socio-economic AND generational issues at play.
09/22/09
What I'm trying to say is, I wonder if one reason so many women go into teaching is because it's a "pink-collar" job. My mom busts her ass, but it wouldn't surprise me if some people see it as a "mom job," where you can bring in a check without "neglecting" your kids. I think that's bullshit. I also think that no matter what you do as a mom, society at large will make you feel guilty about it.
I think this show is an interesting concept, but I'll be really curious to see if she stays or leaves her husband. A lot of wives, political or not, wouldn't be able to jump back into work and would have to stay with the cheater for the income. But that's moot in this case because he resigns and goes to prison, right?
09/22/09
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09/22/09
All of these things are likely to increase in the current economic climate, so I hope women work together on combatting discrimination instead of seeing this as a mom/non-mom thing.
09/22/09
What is the "discrimination"? Unless a potential employer is penalizing you specifically because you were out of the workforce to raise children vs illness or other reasons, there's no discrimination.
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And you're so right. She is probably getting paid a huge advance for her "story" as well as a huge settlement plus child support if they divorce. Not saying she doesn't deserve it, but she's definitely not the norm here. It's incredibly difficult to transition back into the workforce.
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I'm on the other side, and have had to drop out of the workforce to be sick.
Caregivers are heroes, seriously.
09/23/09
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