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Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
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ritualtheory
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
Anna, however any/all may feel about Brown, her value system, and her career, your summary is a damn fine one. Thank you for that.
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Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
You know, I have a copy of Outrageous Opinions that I found at an op-shop, and some of that shit was pretty darn progressive. I hate assigning women the title of 'Feminist Icon'- each feminist is different, and should get to choose her own icons.
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rednrowdy
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
the single woman "is engaging because she lives by her wits. She supports herself. She has to sharpen her personality and mental resources to a glitter in order to survive in a competitive world, and the sharpening looks good."

absolutely, 100% true. unless, of course, her daddy is helping her out.
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randomnessish
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
Any woman who says "mouseburger" isn't all bad in my book.

Generally, even though her "brand of feminism" is outdated and overly shallow, I DO think that while she isn't a "feminist" in the normal sense, she did champion the modernization of women's roles. She popularized being single and individualistic, and even though there were some very bad things about the way she did it, and some bad things that have grown out of it, I generally believe that she's not some bad witch who pushed back the feminist movement (or whatever the hell you want to call it).
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PhillyLass
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
HGB may claim to be a tireless advocate for the single woman, but she married Mr. Brown at age 37 so she could avoid her "lonely spinter's bed." And she may claim that work should be the center of a woman's life, but she's made a fortune at the helm of a wildly popular magazine. How can a woman making minimum wage scrubbing toilets in a motel turn that into a fulfilling career? I'm all for respecting the dignity of honest work; and any job that puts food on the table serves a vital purpose. But that doesn't make it worthy of being the center of one's life. Careers are the privilege of women with access to education and opportunities. And those are still hard to come by for many. I just don't buy the argument that Brown speaks to women who *have* to work. She, like Friedan, speaks to educated, mostly middle class women. The only demographic difference I can detect is urban v. suburban.
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bluebears
05/04/09

@PhillyLass: "I just don't buy the argument that Brown speaks to women who *have* to work."

I was puzzled by that claim as well. but I just thought, well maybe she did...????
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Diziet_Sma
05/04/09

@PhillyLass: Well, you could argue that a single woman who is cleaning toilets for a living and has the drive to succeed can take classes in business management and work her way up to running her own toilet-cleaning business. Of course, that's probably only viable if she doesn't have a family to support.

I think supporting the notion that you are the master of your own destiny is a good thing, though.

I mean, I hear what you're saying, but I don't think you can write people off just because they have a shit job. Pardon the pun!
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PhillyLass
05/04/09

@Diziet_Sma: Whoa! I'm certainly NOT writing anyone off. Or, rather, I'm writing Brown off for being unrealistic. I'm not saying that a toilet cleaner should feel like shit about her job. (Pardon my pun this time.) I'm saying that she's unlikely to find fulfillment from the work itself and, therefore, is unlikely to make it the center of her universe per Brown's vision. She may take pride in an honest day's work, or being able to pay the bills, or providing for her family. But the actual process of scrubbing a toilet is probably not the source of her pride and self-esteem.

And I'm wary of that "master of your destiny" notion. "Making the most of your options" seems the more sensible approach to life. How much money does it cost to go for business management training? How much energy does it take after spending the day at demanding physical labor? How much start-up money does it take to found a toilet-cleaning business? Sure, some women could pull it off. But they'd be the exceptions.
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Diziet_Sma
05/04/09

@PhillyLass: Fair enough.
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picardia
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
Although I wouldn't consider Brown a feminist, much less a feminist icon, some of the better advice in "Sex and the Single Girl" holds up remarkably well. I happened to read it right around the time I read "The Feminine Eunuch," and I remembered thinking that Brown's work was less dated.
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baraqiel
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
What Brown advocated was the advancement of certain women who were comfortable conforming to her brand of individualism. What feminism advocates is the advancement of women as a class. These two things are not the same by any measure.
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SarahMC
05/04/09

@baraqiel: BAM! Nail on the head.
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baraqiel
05/04/09

@SarahMC: ball-cutting cybersuccubus: @Ionic: Thanks -- it just blows my mind when people identify her as a feminist icon. She spoke all the time about self-advancement by sleeping with married men, and that the wives deserve what they get because they're not being interesting enough. Guess what, Helen Gurley Brown? Wives are women too! Maybe if we're concerned with the advancement of women, we should also spare a thought for the ones that are married! How can we claim this woman is a feminist icon if she bases half her philosophy on taking advantage of a patriarchal system to fuck over other women?
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Ailanthus-altissima
05/04/09

@baraqiel: I'm just commenting so I can hear a bit more of your monologue against HGB. It needs to be said and you're putting it well.
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baraqiel
05/04/09

@Ailanthus-altissima: Aaah, I'm supposed to be doing work! But I can never resist flattery. ^_~

I'm certainly not the first to say that most of what Brown did was take women out of one box and put them into another box. Her vision leaves behind the women who want to get married, who don't want a career, and who aren't that interested in sex. It even leaves behind the women who are interested in sex sometimes, or often, but not the kind of sex that Brown thinks is the right kind to have -- sex in which the male orgasm is the primary goal and the female orgasm mostly serve to validate "what a good, generous lover your man is!", in which women need to police our every noise and facial expression and make sure to suck in our stomachs the whole time, just to make sure that we look as sexy as possible for the (presumably married) man that we're really only having sex with so he'll buy us things. The ultimate problem with Helen Gurley Brown's philosophy, and the problem with calling it feminism, is that it *still* argues that a woman is only a person of worth dependent on what choices she makes. That's not what feminism is about. Feminism is about saying women are valuable by virtue of being people, full stop.

I guess that there are some women who find a lot of validation in Brown's vision because they relate to it a lot, and that's fine -- we all need heroes that we can relate to. But to say that she championed the cause of all women everywhere is just false. I find that putting her among feminist icons who actually devoted their lives to improving the lot of women as a class is insulting to both the icons themselves and the people who look to those icons for inspiration and encouragement.
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Ailanthus-altissima
05/04/09

@baraqiel: Thank you. I have this mental tension about sex positivism and feminism, and this discussion on HGB has helped nail it down. She promotes a "sex positivism" that to me is just fulfilling men's fantasies, dolled up as feminism.
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baraqiel
05/04/09

@Ailanthus-altissima: It's a combination of that and the fact that there's no choice about it. Sex positivity should really mean being free to choose to be sexual, and for that to be healthy. But not being sexual, or being sexual in different ways, can also be healthy for different people at different times. In Brown's world, it seems, women must be sexy only in the "eating a doughnut off your boyfriend's penis" way, all the time.
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Sputnik_Sweetheart
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
A communication professor of mine once said that none of the advice in Cosmo is for a woman's benefit. While I admire (and agree with to an extent) her views on marriage and career, I can't look past her views/comments on diets, conventional beauty, sexual harassment, sexual roles, etc.
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Slumdog_Mamabear
05/04/09

@Sputnik_Sweetheart: Can I ask which of her views you agree with pertaining to marriage and family?
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SarahMC
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
The "good" done by HGB is far outweighed by the bad. I can't stand the woman. She really cheapens "feminism" as far as I'm concerned.
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Khrushchev
05/04/09

@SarahMC: ball-cutting cybersuccubus: Feminism is a big boat! There's room for everyone! blah blah blah vomit.
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SarahMC
05/04/09

@Khrushchev: HGB drilled a hole in the bottom.
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Newsgirl
05/04/09

@SarahMC: ball-cutting cybersuccubus: Exactly.
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Ailanthus-altissima
05/04/09

@Khrushchev: Don't rock the boat by suggesting that just because a woman does something, that something doesn't automatically become feminist.

OK, now I've made myself sick.
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JerseyGrrrl
05/04/09

@SarahMC: ball-cutting cybersuccubus: My favorite of your transportation analogies was when you said HGB drive women's rights back several decades running red lights on the way. I can't fully capture the genius of the original.

But every once in a while someone makes a comment that sticks in my brain. And that one definitely has :)

Anyway, agreed on both counts.
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SarahMC
05/04/09

@JerseyGrrrl: Haha thanks for the props! I have a thing for transportation analogies.
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Ailanthus-altissima
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
You know, I think I am going to dismiss her. While I appreciate her advocacy for career women, I believe that the sum total of her philosophy and work put women back and reinforced patriarchal ideas of sex and a woman's place.
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Newsgirl
05/04/09

@Ailanthus-altissima: I hearted you again just for this comment.
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Bryn
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
I wonder why "hypocritical" for married women? Wonder what the context was there. "Dull" is easier to imagine...staying home watching a DVD with your honey instead of going out, etc.
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Slumdog_Mamabear
05/04/09

@BrightonShiny: Yeah, that made me stabby. But I was also told this week that being a mother makes me recognizable by feminists but not a part of the movement. *Shrug*
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Penny
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
I think her career advice is brilliant, and considering the fact that all of my girlfriends are crazy smart and career-focused, I would that, no, she should not be dismissed.
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bluebears
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
I find it interesting that certain people seem so invested into turning HGB into some sort of feminist icon. I have admittedly not read HGB deeply but she doesn't strike me as a feminist who made fighting for equality among women a lifes work, she strikes me as a businesswomen who was trying to sell a magazine and appeal to a growing demographic of working and sexually unrestrained women. This is, to me, an important distinction.
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Khrushchev
05/04/09

@bluebears: Does it seem almost defensive to you? I feel like this desire to place her in some kind of pantheon of feminist icons comes partly from this idea that feminism = whatever you choose is valid no matter what.
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bluebears
05/04/09

@bluebears: I would totally agree that she's a CULTURAL icon. but feminist icon? no not really.
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bluebears
05/04/09

@Khrushchev: yes, absolutely. its a pushing back almost, like, "no don't tell me what a feminist is, a feminist is what I want it to be." Because she simply did not have much to say about, actual feminism. For example, I don't love Naomi Wolf, she's not my favorite, but I recognize her as an important feminist, ie she's studied and devoted her career to examining issues relating to womens equality.
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Khrushchev
05/04/09

@bluebears: Right. What bothers me is that this notion of her being a feminist icon is becoming more and more accepted. And like it or not that only validates the truly crap magazine she produced.
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bluebears
05/04/09

@Khrushchev: it's the whole "Girl Power!" versus actual feminism. Of course Girl Power is winning. HGB is like the modern precursor of Sex in the City where self centered materialism is dressed up as strong independent woman.
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Cimorene
05/04/09

@bluebears: Exactly. It completely defangs any actual power that feminism can have. When I say that I'm a feminist, sometimes men cringe. Those men are clearly to be avoided or shamed, depending on my mood--they cringe because they think feminism is scary, a threat to their privilege, and reasonably assume that I will not acquiesce to them simply because of my vagina. It is that response that I want when I tell people that I'm a feminist, because I should be scary. I hate the current patriarchal state of our culture, and I want to fuck it up. As Susan Faludi wrote, "The opponents of women's liberation are girding for the next assault by American Women. They seem to believe it will be an assault on the world as it is. We can only hope they are right." I mean, fuck yeah--the world as it is totally sucks for women.

When HGB becomes "feminist," my word of power ceases to be powerful, because suddenly "feminist" means "I'm really good, and really proud of my ability, at sucking dick." And being great at blow jobs is a wonderful thing, I'm sure, but that's not the message that I want to convey when I talk about feminism. I don't want people to assume that feminism condones "a little anorexia" as a way of living, I don't want people to think that feminism is pretty, feminine, sassy, or sexy. I want people to think that feminism is a powerful socio-political movement that seeks to liberate women from male oppression, end the sex/gender system as we know it, and generally stop the hierarchy and oppression that face minorities all over the world.
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Lulupasternak
05/04/09

@Cimorene: But why is your definition of feminism the "right" one? Because you took a women's studies class? HGB paid more dues than just about any other woman in the popular press.
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Newsgirl
05/04/09

@Lulupasternak: "HGB paid more dues than just about any other woman in the popular press."

Seriously? What do you mean by 'popular press?' Because you can't possibly be saying she paid more dues than, say, Helen Thomas or Katherine Graham.
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brendastarlet is on it
05/04/09

@Leslie: Helen Thomas and Katherine Graham are/were JOURNALISTS. No one would accuse HGB of that and she'd never claim it.

I join those sticking up for her. I grew up in a small town where the only woman role models we saw were on TV. The other magazines for women were either focused on fashion, or marriage, or recipes. Not a one of them directly talked about sex. Cosmo gave me a lot of information I couldn't find elsewhere. I read it cover to cover every time I babysit for the family that had a subscription.
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Newsgirl
05/04/09

@brendastarlet is on it: " No one would accuse HGB of that" .... Accuse her of being a journalist? As if that's something bad to be accused of? I'm a journalist.

Lulupasternak said 'popular press,' which is a broad term basically meaning widely read printed materials. I asked for clarity because Thomas and Graham are in that category, and as far as I'm concerned, have done exponentially more for women - in the media and otherwise - than HGB.
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bluebears
05/04/09

@Cimorene: awesome comment! I love it.

@Lulupasternak: thats what you got from that comment? wow.

@brendastarlet is on it: HGB was part of the popular press just like Katherine Graham etc...but that still doesn't make her a feminist.
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YourScreenplaySucks
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
I think Helen really missed out on an opportunity to market "I Can't Believe It's Not Feminism!", the feminism substitute made from a non-nutritious blend of anorexia, martinis, and nipple rouge. I'm pretty sure she could have even used Fabio as the spokesperson.
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ritualtheory
05/04/09

@Your Screenplay Sucks: She still has time, if we can push Candace Bushnell out of the way...
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NefariousNewt
05/04/09

In reply to Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown: Maybe Not Such A Bad Girl After All
She has her place, no question, but for all the steps she took forward, she took a great many back. Women should not have to lie to men -- men should have the stones to take the truth like a man. Men are going to keep asking women to stroke their vanity at the expense of an honest and trusting relationship as long as women feel compelled to do "whatever it takes" to keep a man attracted to them.
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