Intrinsa - Jezebel

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British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
Post-Menopausal Women Can Double Pleasure, Fun With Testosterone Patch
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Dita Dimoné
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
Obligatory self-important comment about my sex drive: I got off birth control and it's like the sun came out. Seriously, shit is poison.
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maneki neko
03/04/09

@Dita Dimoné: Seriously. I know many people who take it for things other than, you know, keepin' the babies at bay, but that was my only reason. And then I noticed that although I wasn't getting pregnant, I also had no desire to have sex whatsoever. Kinda defeats the point - I guess it's doubly effective! I then switched to the NuvaRing and had much better luck.
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MR
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
It's interesting... my partner is trans and on testosterone suppressants and estrogen supplements. Last year, we had some money troubles and she had to go off her meds for awhile. Despite the increase in testosterone in her system, she had NO libido because being off the hormones made her depression worse. When taking the testosterone suppressant, her libido is actually much higher. So, purely anecdotally... I think it is more in your head than your hormones. It seems like the DTB findings support that, at least somewhat.

Although ultimately I think sexual desire is so individual that it would be almost impossible to conduct a study that took all the necessary variables into account.
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rhymeswithfeather
03/04/09

@MR: Excellent points. That's the problem with this study -- it makes a lot of assumptions about what's 'normal,' when sexual behavior and experiences among women are obviously really varied.
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Lulupasternak
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
Does Jezebel employ any post-menopausal women? Perhaps you could find one or two.
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lilad
03/04/09

@Lulupasternak: er, why?
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rhymeswithfeather
03/04/09

@Lulupasternak: Good effing point.
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ihateyourescalade
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
It seems every time the scientific community makes a recommendation or comes out with a study that says something Jezzies don't want to hear (see the post about drinking and sexual assault from the other day), the knee-jerk reaction is "sexism!" This attitude is getting a little silly, honestly.
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Penny
03/04/09

@ihateyourescalade: I don't read every post on health studies, so I can't really comment on an ongoing attitude.

But....this IS sexism, plain and simple. Women's libidos and sexualities are not nearly as important within the medical community. Furthermore, women's sexuality is looked at through the same lens as men, i.e. - give her a pill or a patch or some hormones and she'll be set straight....because there's a pill out there that gives men hard ons? That's ridiculous.

This is not only cultural but has to do with the fact that there are less women in the research community, I would imagine.

So, in this case. Yes, sexism is involved.
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Santos L Halper
03/04/09

@ihateyourescalade: I just read this as trying to define what is "normal" for women as far as libido is concerned. I don't know if sexism is necessarily involved, I'm just uncomfortable with the scientific community delineating what is normal and what is not. Or maybe I'm just a irascible, cigar-chomping reactionary.
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EsmereldaFitzmonster
03/04/09

@ihateyourescalade: Plus Jezebel is a feminist community, so doesn't it make sense that they specifically highlight sexist studies?
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baraqiel
03/04/09

@ihateyourescalade: I'm not sure how the post about sexual assault and substance abuse supports your point. The whole text of the post was the findings of the study, and the only commentary was in the category tag, "Still his fault", which I think is pretty obvious and not calling the study sexist. In this case, the study *is* sexist, since it seems to be assuming what a normal female sex drive is (3 times a month).
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ihateyourescalade
03/04/09

@baraqiel: In the case of the sexual assault/substance abuse post, it was the commenters, not the Jez editors, who got really up in arms.
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rhymeswithfeather
03/04/09

@ihateyourescalade: You DO realize science does not equal god, right? Like, researchers DO have biases, assumptions and agendas, and that the scientific community is primarily male. I'm by no means all "teh science! it hates teh womenz!" or anything, but studies are by no means perfect (as evidenced by all the contradicting ones), and it's up to us to recognize flawed cultural assumptions and not just assume everything published in a medical journal is factual, accurate and thorough in its analysis.
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baraqiel
03/04/09

@ihateyourescalade: Yeah, but I think the sexism the commenters were protesting is sexism in society. Definitely there were some people who protested that the study only covered women, but as the study *didn't* only cover women, they were basing their argument on false premises.

Plus, a lot of time "social scientists" do some sort of bullshit study that says absolutely nothing about anything, and a journalist makes it into a recommendation, and that recommendation is sexist. That's not the fault of the researchers, but the sexism is there nonetheless.
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clevernamehere
03/04/09

@Penny Plastic: But they're not saying give her a pill or patch. They're saying, we tried the patch and it didn't work.

@baraqiel: I don't think they are saying that 3x a month is totally normal, I think they're saying that because they are having sex somewhat often, hormones don't seem like a likely cause.
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rhymeswithfeather
03/04/09

@clevernamehere: But having sex does not equal WANTING to have sex, right? I think that's one of the best points of this post is the researchers' assumption that women's libido must be high because they fornicate. As we've discussed multiple times on Jez, many women have sex out of perceived societal obligation (there was just an article on here about why women 'should' put out yesterday). Whether this desire (or lack of it) is hormonal or not, it still seems unfair to say that women definitely, 100% do not need a patch and/or supplement because they bang 3-times monthly.

Of course, any study won't fully account for the unique and varied sexual experiences and desires of all women, but to draw a conclusion like 'frequency' of sexual encounters (if you can call sex 3 times a month frequent) is indicative of libido seems like bad math, if you ask me.
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DangerMouse
03/04/09

@baraqiel: ""social scientists" do some sort of bullshit study"

Really? You just slurred dozens of research fields???
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baraqiel
03/04/09

@DangerMouse: Not all studies that social scientists do are bullshit. But a lot of them. They're also rarely scientific in any way. To be fair, a lot of hard science studies are also bullshit, but at least they usually have some sort of rigor to them, even if the premise and conclusions are both worthless. The problem is that most useful, rigorous scientific studies aren't interesting in a way that can be written about in the newspaper, because they require too much background knowledge, and almost all useful science is done as a series of small steps rather than one big discovery in one investigation, anyway.
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rhymeswithfeather
03/04/09

@baraqiel: The social sciences are rigorous, too! Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that there aren't bullshit social science studies, but the use of hard data doesn't make a study superior. A lot of postmodern social science disciplines -- specifically, say, feminist studies -- are incredibly rigorous. Are they biased? Absolutely; but they recognize their bias and identify it an examine its impact on results -- something so-called hard science is often lacking. Social science is a massive field and has made many, many important contributions to society and our understanding.
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clevernamehere
03/04/09

@heatherwritesstuff: We really don't know what the researchers assumptions were based on this article, we only get bits and pieces. But from what I read, it appeared that they were questioning the legitimacy of the selection criteria. One of the issues mentioned in the BBC piece is that it was a short survey. So it probably isn't collecting detailed information on other issues, like saying having a 2 year old child with autism that might mean that 3 times a month pretty decent, considering the amount of time devoted to child care.

If you're going to test hormone therapy for low libido, you do want to find people with the lowest possible libido and opportunity for sex (ie a partner you get to spend alone time with).

And they aren't saying women don't need a patch, they are saying women don't need THIS patch. I really don't get why people are upset. Why would anyone want hormones that don't appear to work? The hormone patch is being pushed by big pharma and these researchers are saying it doesn't seem worth the side effects. Not everything is the patriarchy.

@heatherwritesstuff: This isn't even social science research, its biomedical research. I think it is also a randomized control trial, the gold standard when it comes to biomedical research.
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rhymeswithfeather
03/04/09

@clevernamehere: I wasn't in any way implying that THIS is social science research; you're right -- it's not. The above commenter, however, referred to social science, and as I have degrees in sociology and women's studies (though admittedly do not work in a social science field now), I kinda took issue with said assertion that all social science-based studies are 'bullshit.' I learned from, participated in, and observed many social science studies that were of tremendous value to policy makers, development agencies, NGOs, governments, etc etc., as opposed to merely being fuel for journalistic assertions and moral epidemics.

I'm well aware that not everything is the big bad patriarchy out to get me. I loathe unnecessary drug treatments issued without knowledge of long-term consequences, and I distrust big pharma. I think these researchers have every right to be skeptical. I just think that many studies -- including this one -- make blanket statements and unwarranted assumptions regarding female sexuality, and fail to account for cultural assumptions and researcher bias, which, whether it's implicitly explored or not, does exist. But, that's just the bullshit social scientist in me.
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doctorsnowy
03/04/09

@heatherwritesstuff: Thank you!
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rhymeswithfeather
03/04/09

@doctorsnowy: Rock on, social scientist friend. Rock on. ;)
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SylvanSylph
03/05/09

@Penny Plastic: Your assumption that there are less women in the research community should probably be addressed. Because, actually, as far as getting PhD's in biomedical fields go, women significantly outnumber men, and the gap is constantly growing.

Also, I am uncomfortable with Jez's stance on scientific research. I can definitely see an article 5 years from now blaming science for producing a patch that produced horrible side effects and did little in the way of actually improving female libidos. Of course I see your point about sex not necessarily being the same as sex drive, but having no libido plus paying some pharm company tons of money to have acne, depression, and weight gain certainly isn't the feminist approach, right?

All of that being said, Dr. Jezebel, if you would like a scientist on your staff to write posts about these kinds of studies, good and bad, please message me. Because that would be a friggin dream job.
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Penny
03/05/09

@SylvanSylph: Because, actually, as far as getting PhD's in biomedical fields go, women significantly outnumber men, and the gap is constantly growing.

Does this apply to who is actually fronting the research?
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SylvanSylph
03/05/09

@Penny Plastic: Well, it depends on what you mean by fronting the research. Generally a PhD scientist in academia is very much responsible for choosing the subject of and leading her own research, so in that case, yes, it absolutely applies. If you mean paying for the research, then money comes from all sorts of places via grants, often from the government. As far as pharmaceutical companies go, I imagine the sex distribution of their researchers echoes the sex distribution of researchers elsewhere, although of course variation may exist by company. I'm not sure who makes the decisions on what to research in private companies- a board of administrative type people probably. The article this post references is kind of a strange case; I looked it up, and it was put out by the Drug and Therapeutics Bulletin in the UK, which is an independent group that publishes about the safety and effectiveness of pharmaceuticals. It doesn't specifically mention any contributors to the article on the publication or on the site, which is unusual, but it states that it receives significant input from medical professionals including doctors and nurses as well as from scientific researchers.

But in general, yes, there are increasingly more female than male biomedical researchers, and you can be pretty sure that they lead their own research.
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missteenwordpower
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
If I only wanted sex three times a month, it would end my relationship. Not because mrteenwordpower get pissed about the lack of sex, but because I'd freak out so hard I'd be insufferable. Where's my patch for THAT?
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baraqiel
03/04/09

@missteenwordpower is your sexy Ms. Magoo.: For serious! I start feeling sad and frustrated when my boyf and I have too much work/stress to fool around for like four days. Three times a month?!
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special_boots
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
1. This is a really great post.

2. But I still think "bump uglies" is one of the most upsetting phrases ever. Please don't make me a Worstie and punish me by using that phrase five times in a row in various contexts.

Or, I guess, do, because that would still be pretty funny.
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Mediokra
03/04/09

@special_boots: The first time I heard someone use that phrase, I gagged. I didn't want to gag or think about gagging or gag metaphorically ... I gagged. It's so gross.
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chinaplate
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
What? That really wasn't the focus of the BBC article at all. They were saying that the patch wasn't proved to be safe, and that if the placebo shows similar effectiveness, likely doesn't actually work.

Also, the NHS absolutely does not prescribe Viagra 'willy-nilly' nor is it freely available in the UK. The comparison doesn't hold at all. I think this whole post is altogether quite misleading.
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Penny
03/04/09

@chinaplate: "I mean, it's not like some men go around popping Viagra and Cialis willy-nilly just to live up to certain expectations and feelings about normal sexual performance or anything."

Not really sure where Megan said that the NHS prescribes Viagra willy-nilly.

And, UK or otherwise, I think it's common knowledge that sex-performance meds are more developed, more studied and more widely available for men.
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baraqiel
03/04/09

@chinaplate: I think it's more the "three time a month is normal" thing that Megan had a problem with. But I agree that if there are comparable results with placebo, the efficacy of the drug itself is questionable.
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
I have a hard time believing much thought, if any, was put into whether or not men should have more sex or how much was "too much" when Viagra was being studied.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
03/04/09

@BrutallyHonestZombies: "Menfolk: Still got peen skin? Then you're not having too much sex!"

There. Research accomplished.
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baraqiel
03/04/09

@BrutallyHonestZombies: They tell you how much is too much in the commercials: if you have an erection lasting for more than 6 hours, duh. When you lose control of your dick, then you've gone too far.

I actually think priapism is the funniest medical condition ever, because I'm 5.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
Ok, what patch will make me willing to just lie there and think of England more than once a week?
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J.D.Regent
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
Right, so yesterday someone was telling me it's my duty to put out all the time, but if I try and actually repair my hormone wrecked libido in order to desire my wifely duty, I'm slutty. Thanks world!
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f-words
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
"Furthermore, the doctors at the DTB criticized the patch's relatively high placebo effect, in which women who got a fake patch still found themselves wanting sex more. Yes, how terrible to discover that some component of libido is based in one's head and that, expecting that they would want sex more, women found themselves wanting sex more."

They're testing for the effect of the actual drug in the patch, not the effect of putting some random patch on you, so if the effect of the patch really does come down to the placebo effect, there's no point in using something other than a sticker.
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kityglitr
03/04/09

@f-words: Thank you rationality! It's a clinical test, and more testing needs to be done before they can say it works or it doesn't work. Like every drug or hormone therapy. I really wish this article had been written more from the standpoint that they're worried about the long term risks of breast cancer with this type of testosterone therapy? I think this post was way too preachy in all the wrong places. I mean, the article about the drug is one thing. The clinical trials and resulting data? Completely different.
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Penny
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
I thought about trying this out.

Then I decided I liked not having a beard.
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sweet cuppin' cakes needs coffee
03/04/09

@Penny Plastic: I like mine. I can store crumbs in it for later eating.
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BeckySharper
03/04/09

@Penny Plastic: But it's winter, and I'm thinking some chest hair might keep me warmer than my camisole.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
03/04/09

@BeckySharper: Oh what was that thing I read in a ladymag not too long ago...did you know you can wear like, a camisole.../and/ another shirt? No more walking around in the snow in my underwear!

/sarcasm at ladymags, not at you, Becky :D
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lucystrawberry: Tier 2 is the new black
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
Oh dear god, I would love a freakin patch or pill like this. I have basically zilch desire to have sex with another human being. I know there is nothing wrong with my mechanisms--it all works fine and I make use of it on my own...but with another person? less interested.

It sucks. I have the most awesome relationship ever but thinking of our lack of sex life makes me feel deeply deeply insecure.
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Penny
03/04/09

@lucystrawberry PM me for ANTM live chat tonight!: Same. Except I'm not even interested in going at it alone. It's.....depressing, and scary, to say the least.
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Beat Girl
03/04/09

@lucystrawberry PM me for ANTM live chat tonight!: It was a huge part of the motivation for me to talk to my doctor about depression. My libido is recovering very slowly, but after only two years with my beau I was TERRIFIED that I did not want sex at ALL.

I really recommend talking to a doctor or nurse, even if you're not depressed or anything similar. Feeling like I was actively doing something to acknowledge and fix it was the best move I ever made for my sex life.
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special_boots
03/04/09

@lucystrawberry PM me for ANTM live chat tonight!: This happened to me in a great relationship once, and ultimately I broke up with the person and moved on. However, I fear for my future if "break up, find someone else" is my solution whenever my sex drive disappears.

=/
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lucystrawberry: Tier 2 is the new black
03/04/09

@special_boots: I've always been like this tho, and I was sexually active for several years before I met him. Maybe there is nothing wrong with me, and it's normal and okay for my body to be this way, but I just feel bad about it because society tells me I am not supposed to be this way. egh. who knows. it sucks.
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Cerridwen
03/04/09

@Miss Carrie Nation: Absolutely. I am in a relationship with an amazing man who had almost no desire for sex when he was battling pretty bad depression. His sex drive has recovered, but it has taken effort and patience.

@lucystrawberry PM me for ANTM live chat tonight!: I agree that seeking the advice of a medical professional is a good thing, if you are at all uncomfortable physically or emotionally with the level of your sex drive. Also, acceptance and patience with yourself is very important. You may not have as high a libido as others and it may always be lower, but that doesn't make you unattractive, unlovable or anything. you don't ever have to measure up to an external standard of sexual desire. If you are in a respectful and loving relationship, I highly suggest communicating your feelings, if you have not already. Speaking as someone who had to deal with my partner's lack of desire, knowing what he was struggling with and how much he wanted to want sex (even if he could not) made it that much better, because I knew he was not rejecting me but had his own internal struggle to deal with. Anyways, that's just my overshare for the day!
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special_boots
03/04/09

@lucystrawberry PM me for ANTM live chat tonight!: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything about your situation! I was just sort of commiserating about how much it sucks to be with someone you love but not want to have sex with him. Wanting to want to have sex is an awful feeling.
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bandofconsciousness
03/04/09

@lucystrawberry PM me for ANTM live chat tonight!: are you on the pill? It happened to me when I was on the pill and I got it figured out which basically meant going off the pill and getting testosterone shots for a few months to recover...saved my life! low testosterone also can cause depression, anxiety, low energy...
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MinneFilly
03/04/09

@lucystrawberry PM me for ANTM live chat tonight!: this might be totally inapplicable to you, but in myself i've found: on the pill: almost no libido. i gotta talk myself into it, or do it because i know it will be fun (probably). off the pill: shocking to me, that i had as much of a libido as i apparently do, when i'm not being hormonally beaten down. unfortch, i've been on it for the better part of 10 years, and probably will go back on it again, for the same non-sexually-active reasons that i went on it at 16. but i'm afraid of it slipping into unconsciousness yet again.

so, the point is: if it applies to you at all, try experimenting with something else and weaning yourself hormonally--you never know.
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lucystrawberry: Tier 2 is the new black
03/04/09

@Miss Carrie Nation: I will talk to my doctor. But I am already on Zoloft, so not sure what they would do if they thought zoloft was the culprit. And I know zoloft lowers the libido, but it was low when I was off Zoloft too.

Honestly I think a lot of it stems from sexual trauma that happened in my childhood, which I have dealt with--talked to therapists, told my partner, accepted and made peace with, etc--but being honest and upfront and dealing with something doesnt always mean that the problems it causes go away.
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lucystrawberry: Tier 2 is the new black
03/04/09

@bandofconsciousness: On the pill, off the pill---it's low regardless.
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lucystrawberry: Tier 2 is the new black
03/04/09

@MinneFilly: I just went off the pill for almost a year, and there was no change--no change in my sex drive. The change in my acne, however, was mind-boggling. I looked like a freakin 16 year old pizza face.
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angelina jolie-laide is a gaudy tulip
03/04/09

@lucystrawberry PM me for ANTM live chat tonight!: You are me. I have no sex drive. I'm on Zoloft now, but it's awful when I'm off medicine as well. I've been on Remeron, Cymbalta, Adderall, Lexapro and Wellbutrin. No dice. No meds? NO DICE.

There was once a time when I had a sex drive. I wonder what happened? I'm only 23.
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DangerMouse
03/04/09

@lucystrawberry PM me for ANTM live chat tonight!: For me, I went on the patch and on a low dose of celexa for IBS at the same time. Later, I went off celexa, and I was all horny again all of a sudden.

I was *very* confused.
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clevernamehere
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
The placebo effect IS important. If just sticking a pretend sexy band-aid on someone's belly does just as much good as giving them hormones, we probably don't want to give people the hormones.

If I was going to pump myself full of hormones, I'd want more than "it didn't cause too many side effects in a six month trial."
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Green Goth Brit Chick - AlternatEve
03/04/09

In reply to British Doctors Tell Women How Much Sex Is Enough
... I went from wanting it almost every night, to about three times a month. I now want to smack those doctors, because I know myself, and how I'm feeling about sex right now is *not* normal, nor the result of any severe trauma/stress.
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QueenOfTheForest
03/04/09

@Green Goth Brit Chick - Chronically Fatigued - Pre-emptive ...: Has your screen name got anything to do with this? Are you chronically fatigued? I'd recommend seeing an M.D., but after reading this post I'm not so sure it'd be all that helpful.

I'm sorry you're going through this. Maybe more rest will help you regain your libido...?
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Green Goth Brit Chick - AlternatEve
03/04/09

@QueenOfTheForest: Yeah I have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, but I have for longer than there's been libido issues. I've brought it up with my Doctor and thankfully she's really understanding, but right now we're just chalking it up to a possible side effect of the combination of meds I'm on rather than just one of them. Its really frustrating (pun somewhat intended) because I can get in the mood for solo play more than I can for full sex, and my feelings toward my partner haven't changed as far as I can tell.
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