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The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
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olympia72
03/06/09

In reply to The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
Man, Hillary Clinton's failed candidacy fucked me up bad. Seeing so many young women, avid feminists included, reject Hillary because she reminded them of their mothers, while Obama was their sexy guy friend, made me think, basically, that the whole thing is hopeless. I see sexism and ageism as being intrinsically connected. Women are less likely to be taken seriously 'til they're older, and yet, when they're older, they're lacking in that all too important sex appeal. The whole situation makes me want to drink myself into a coma, although, it occurs to me, there's another option- just accepting that men and women are different, that women don't have the same potential to lead as men.

I have to say, never have I been so glad to have a gender-neutral name as I do know. I used to be proud to be a woman. Now, not so much.
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chritter is a nocturnal feminist mancatfish
03/06/09

@olympia72: So you sum up the thoughts of people around you who didn't vote for Hillary as "because she reminded them of their mothers"?

You must run with an extraordinarily shallow crowd, I'm afraid. I did vote for her in the primaries, but many people I know didn't, none of them for anything like that ridiculous a reason.
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Cimorene
03/05/09

In reply to The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
You know what though, saying that "The simple fact is that most candidates are men, and there are several significant, institutional reasons that are much harder to talk about or deal with than blaming simply blaming sexists and/or young female voters." sort of glosses over the fact that the reason that there are fewer female candidates is due to sexism. Yes, your list of reasons is helpful and clearly explicates the more detailed variations of the institutionalized sexism that maintains the status quo. That's eminently useful.

What isn't useful is a feminist website writing a potentially-helpful post using a tone seriously dismissive of sexism, not only as a legitimate area of concern for the specific campaigns of female candidates, but also as the root cause of a lot of the more specific reasons listed. For example, the power of incumbency as a reason women aren't elected more often. Well, yes, incumbency leads to new politicians having a tough time getting into office. But, still, there are fewer female candidates than male, which has nothing to do with who wins the campaign. Then, the reason that there are so few female incumbents is the naturalizing power that already-male groups of politicians already have, but also (importantly) the fact that there are so few women politicians already. So, it's a self-perpetuating cycle. Are we not allowed to talk about this anymore?

I for one refuse to stop talking about legitimate concerns I have about sexism in politics just because the PUMAs are nuts and have co-opted the vaguest interpretation of my social identity, and everyone in the media just accepting that they, of all people, are representative of women or feminists everywhere. They are the tiny crazy minority, and we should not feel pressured to drop this issue just because they're giving us a bad rep.
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yvanehtnioj
03/05/09

@Cimorene: Couldn't agree more.

Except that I don't think that PUMAs are even worthy of discussion (although they are brought up here in EVERY post about HRC) because post-election polling shows that there was, in fact, no mass exodus of middle aged women voting for McCain in the general after voting for HRC in the primary. So, you know, bringing them up all the time to point to how stoopid and self-defeating and vagina-above-all-else 2nd wavers is ... is a transparent attempt to avoid talking about reasonable feminists' issues with sexism in the election.
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yvanehtnioj
03/05/09

@yvanehtnioj: first "is" should be "are"
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ellaesther
03/05/09

In reply to The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
Well, I'm both impressed by this, and a smidge irritated. Let me explain, but let me state that I understand that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

At 44, I'm the youngest in a family of "older women." My 72 yr old mother, 68 yr old aunt, 48 yr old sister, and I all voted for Obama over Clinton, because we preferred his politics and policy ideas, and felt he had a better chance of saving our country. All of us volunteered with the campaign. Among my wide circle of older women friends, I know exactly one who voted for Clinton in the primaries, and took the rest of us to task for not voting "for a woman." The minute Obama was the candidate, she threw her vote behind him. We are all loud and proud feminists, and (possibly save that one friend) were deeply irritated by those PUMA types.

I think that those particular older women made a splash because they provided a good story, not necessarily an accurate reflection of the women of their generation(s). I think it's unfortunate that if someone were to look at my age and self-declared feminism, they might leap to an absolutely inaccurate assumption about my vote, or feelings about Clinton. I'm glad that she's Secretary of State -- I'm way glader that she's not President.

Also, I don't see that this in anyway contradicts my understanding that yes, sexism plays a role in politics. Of course it does! Megan did an excellent job here of laying out a great number of factors, some of which I'd never considered, that also play a role in whether or not women are elected. The world is complex, politics is complex, and there is no one explanation for any human condition. The sooner we learn to hold several concurrent truths in our minds at the same time, the better off we'll all be.
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chritter is a nocturnal feminist mancatfish
03/06/09

@ellaesther: Thoughtful commentary, as always, my friend. I live in an early primary state (NY), and voted for Hillary out of pure pragmatism--I thought she had the money, the organization, and the background to be the best candidate to beat whoever the Republicans threw up there in November. I liked Barry, had personal connections to him, but, like so many others, underestimated his ability to actually put together a winning coalition. To me, backing someone who could win was all-important, and Hillary seemed like the strongest candidate. As the primaries went along and she made misstep after misstep while he was revealing himself as a once-in-a-generation political talent, I felt a strange ambivalence. I'd deeply wanted to finally have that last glass ceiling broken THIS TIME, but had to accept that this wasn't the year for it. Frankly, I think she would have made a good president, but I think the country needed to go in a direction that didn't involve yet another version of Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton alternating dynasties.
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kelsium
03/05/09

In reply to The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
Alright, I'm not in any way denying that sexism is a factor in politics. There is plenty of evidence in my comment log of caterwauling about that fact. HOWEVER, it is pretty pointless to caterwaul about "sexism" without understanding the specifics of the structures that you are railing against. I think this is a great post for that very reason.

It's been a long day, and I am very cranky, so please no one take gigantic offense to this, but: this is where feminism--or should I say many people who identify as feminist--frustrate me. There seem to be a lot of people demanding that the world acknowledge SEXISM. The Big Ism! See it, feel it, know it's there! Okay, great. But now what do you do? Giving a problem a name and identifying it as a problem is a good first step, but there is no activism without an act. We can't tear down the walls that sexism has created simply by yelling about "sexism", because there is no simple way to get rid of it. Instead we have to look at things like those that Megan describes and start small, working our way up.

I don't know if that all made sense, but I hope it did.
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Jack_Burton
03/05/09

@kelsium: Made a hell of a lot of sense to me.

Thank you for your clarity and tact.
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kelsium
03/05/09

@Jack_Burton: Oh, good!
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yvanehtnioj
03/05/09

@kelsium: But consciousness raising (caterwauling) is important. When people think there's no such thing as an -ism, they have no reason to check their own behavior and assumptions to root out their own susceptibility to that -ism. This isn't a one-or-the-other thing. We can try to recruit women to run for city council and also examine and decry the sexism that Hillary faced.

It's a very uncomfortable discussion to have. But we (society) still have to have it if we want to make any progress.

Like, if someone was denied a job based on race, would it be okay to say, "get a better education, that way they won't be able to turn you down without explaining themselves"? Of course not. But this argument seems to say that women have to dot every i, cross every t, outperform men, and then if that doesn't work society will entertain a conversation about what the problem could possibly be. I don't accept those terms.
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Jack_Burton
03/05/09

In reply to The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
Alas - Even though I've voted in 6 Presidential elections, and perhaps twice as many local elections, signed petitions, registered to 3rd parties to allow them inclusion on the ballot, and donated time and money to causes that are consistent with advancing an egalitarian government and society and sustainable environment, I have a penis - And this speaks volumes about how invested I am in the success of Patriarchy.

Or so I am told.

I guess I should focus more on theory.
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yvanehtnioj
03/05/09

@Jack_Burton: What does this mean? We're talking about the impact of sexism on HRC's campaign, not whether people are nice enough to you because you're a man. What's the connection?
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chritter is a nocturnal feminist mancatfish
03/05/09

@Jack_Burton: Color me confused as well. Hillary lost because you have a penis?
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Jack_Burton
03/05/09

@yvanehtnioj: I guess it's a round-about way of saying that "talk is cheap."

Being involved in politics means more than simply taking sides in "us versus them." It means being critical. I think Megan is setting an excellent example of how to become involved in the process. She doesn't gloss over the fact that politics is a complex machine, that there is incredible tertiary diversity among individuals who espouse a single given primary interest.

I don't ask that anyone "be nice to me," just not judge me by my sex, but rather my acts.
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Cimorene
03/05/09

@Jack_Burton: Um, it does speak volumes about your investment in the patriarchy, because the patriarchy running smoothly isn't going to fuck up your life. So, congratulations, you're a good person!

Look! A man who does the minimum required of him to be a person! He considers women human (but not as important as him, judging by his need to make unrelated comments that are all about him!)! He donates money to egalitarian causes! Let's go get him a cookie!

You don't get points for being decent. You have to actually go above and beyond. And this post that you just posted? Speaks volumes about the way you see yourself in relation to the patriarchy. Do you pat yourself on the back every night before you go to bed? Are you a Nice Guy? Are you, like, real mad that women keep getting upset about sexism? Do you feel judged by your penis? Boo fucking hoo.
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Jack_Burton
03/06/09

@Cimorene: Hey- you wanna rail on me, fine. But I'm going to assume this post was made in haste, and without consideration of the other posts, particularly the follow-up, that I've made on this page.

Pointing out sexism is good. Not practicing it, even better.
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Miss Smith Drank Your Vodka
03/05/09

In reply to The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
I'm not understanding the tone of the first four paragraphs of this post. I get that polls on the perception of sexism do not combat the issue themselves, but the findings of the poll seem telling in why more women aren't running: they do not want to subject themselves to the scrutiny they see as unfair and heavier on women. So, I do not understand the seemingly angry tone at that study.

I would have been more irritated to read that a majority of women didn't feel like there were different requirements of women candidates, as clearly there are. 21% do not believe a woman can be as good a leader as a man, and that is based on only one criteria: being a woman. As someone else said on here, that number is not insignificant.

Thus, maybe sexism isn't the only reason why there are not more females in office, but it surely seems a factor on some level.
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yvanehtnioj
03/05/09

@Miss Smith Drank Your Vodka: PM'ed you.
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yvanehtnioj
03/05/09

In reply to The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
Here's what. During the primary and the election, language was parsed, inflections were inspected, statistics were mined to show that latent racism was affecting Obama's candidacy. And it was, and all of that should have been done, and doing so honestly was good for all involved.

But when you try to do the same with HRC's run, people immediately jump to "I'm not voting for someone just because she has a vagina, that would be WRONG!!!!!", or, she lost a race. Well, losing is part of politics. And not every woman loses because of sexism.

So, riddle me this: Why don't people want to have this discussion honestly? It's not like Obama will have to forfeit the presidency if you acknowledge that sexism negatively impacted her candidacy.
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LaFemme
03/05/09

@yvanehtnioj: So much WORD to this.
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kelsium
03/05/09

@yvanehtnioj: Like I said above, I supported Clinton in the primary, I think she is great and amazing, BUT she had much less sway with young and minority voters. At first glance Clinton and Obama had very very similar policies, I personally much favored Clinton's opinions on health care and education, but outside of Jezebel how many people really took the time to look at each of the candidates platforms? Hardly any I would bet. I think the primary came down to charisma and the ability to draw a crowd. Unfortunately Clinton couldn't stand up next to Obama on that count, and I have no problem saying that.

If we look at the Lifetime poll out of the listed reasons (experience, not tough enough, family concerns) that are listed in the quote the only thing that I can see impacting her is "not tough enough," but for the opposite reason. I heard her described as an immovable ball-breaker on more than one occasion. Yes, that's sexism, but I don't think it lost her the election. If anything I think that people saw her as not being all that far removed from the old patriarchal guard. In an election where people were searching for change, they saw Obama as a bigger step away from the past.
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yvanehtnioj
03/05/09

@kelsium: But it doesn't need to be the only factor to have an honest discussion about it! If we brush off every instance of sexism with, "well, that's probably not the only reason that woman lost", then we'll never make any progress toward routing out sexism directed at female candidates.

And if you try to point out the sexism she encountered, people shift focus to Obama, or to Palin, or even to Bill. These are red herrings. Because NO ONE wants to talk about it!
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yvanehtnioj
03/05/09

@kelsium: Also, I have to assume that by minority you mean black, because she had it all over Obama with Latino voters.
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Hana Maru
03/05/09

@yvanehtnioj: And a majority of Asian voters, myself included.
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kelsium
03/05/09

@yvanehtnioj: Sorry about that factual inaccuracy on my part. I definitely get what you're saying (and by no means is my post below about you, because I like you a lot and I think you have some great points here), and I'm having a difficult time articulating exactly what I disagree with you about, because I actually don't all that much. I guess it's just that all this talk about the theory of sexism and elections frustrates me because it is too wide a range. Sexism impacted Palin, too, but it was of a different sort. I guess I think that if we want female candidates to win it's a lot more important to break the results down as much as possible and see where the little things went wrong. The devil is in the details and all that.
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yvanehtnioj
03/05/09

@kelsium: But we were willing to do that with racism and Obama. We talked about how he was othered, how "that one" was not an innocent slip of the tongue, how people that said they wouldn't vote for him but couldn't give any reason other than "discomfort" were deluding themselves.

I just think it's amazing that there are such blinders on about societal sexism, especially here. The only response is, "well, that's not why I didn't vote for her!" as though that negates what she faced. It's amazingly similar to the "well, I know I'm not racist" posts you get on any race discussion. Um, not helpful.
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yvanehtnioj
03/05/09

@kelsium: "Um, not helpful." is not directed at you. Just at comments like that. I appreciate you engaging on this topic at all; I feel like further proof that people don't want to have this discussion is how few people are even looking at this post (and how late it went up).
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kelsium
03/05/09

In reply to The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
I was a Clinton supporter from the beginning. I voted for her in the primary. Yes, part of it was sexism, but I think that the biggest factor is that the Obama camp was just more in-tune with what Americans were looking for this time around. They ran a nearly seamless campaign, and there's no shame in losing to an excellent opponent.
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baraqiel
03/05/09

In reply to The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
Now, wait a second. "Only 21% said men make better leaders." That's not a small number. That's one out of every five people. There is still significant work to be done there.
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kithkin
03/05/09

@baraqiel: Yeah, that "only" is very misleading.
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baraqiel
03/05/09

@kithkin: I hate it when people do that with statistics. It's like they know that readers will only consider the descriptors -- "only!" "a significant x%!" -- without actually thinking about what the numbers mean, and sadly they're usually right.
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vamusical
03/05/09

In reply to The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
Yeah, I'm less supportive of a candidate whose policies make me want to light furniture on fire and throw it out the window, even though she's got ovaries, so I'm part of the problem! I iz in ur politics, makin sexism wurse.
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Yes_Tim_Gunn
03/05/09

@vamusical: OMG can we start the Burning Sofa Defenestration Party? That would solve the two-party system problem right there!
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kithkin
03/05/09

In reply to The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
I don't find the statistics that women believe sexism is more alive than men do compelling in the least. Of course men don't think it's a big deal, the same way white folks don't think racism is a big deal and able-bodied folks don't think ableism is a big deal, and hetero folks don't think homophobia is a big deal.
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onestrawplz
03/05/09

@kithkin: My thoughts exactly.

In fact, most men I encounter seem to think that women have it better, and that they are actually the ones affected by sexism the most, for various reasons including that women "can get away with anything."
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Cimorene
03/05/09

@onestrawplz: Yeah, an old friend of mine (dead to me now) was telling me how hard his upper-class straight white christian male ass had it, because he is "silenced" by women and black people because he always has to "look around and double check" before telling a woman joke or a black joke.

Seriously. he said this to me. After I called him out on making a rape joke.

People. I went to prom with this person my junior year of high school.

I wanted to reach through facebook and shove reality down his throat.
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onestrawplz
03/06/09

@Cimorene: Wow. I am glad you're no longer friends with him. People like that truly disgust me. It's like, HOW do you think that your situation is even comparable to what women and racial minorities experience??! White men indeed rule the world, so what are they complaining about?
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dancerevolution
03/05/09

In reply to The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
I, also, think she lost due in large part to an inherent sexism in our culture. If this study shows anything, it's that people are still wary about a woman having power. More importantly, people are wary about a woman like Hillary having power. Some are apparently more comfortable with Sarah Palin having power than Hillary Clinton. Someone please explain that to me...
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coconanas
03/05/09

In reply to The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
Isn't it sexism if we vote for women BECAUSE they're women? When it comes to politics, policy and capability is what I'm looking for.
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sweet cuppin' cakes needs coffee
03/05/09

@coconanas: Technically it would be sexism, right? We're not doing anyone a favor if we vote by genitalia rather than the issues.
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LaFemme
03/05/09

@coconanas: Yeah, it would be. I think the Obama/Clinton primary was somewhat unique though, in that most of their policies were very, very similar. You couldn't really be like, "I support everything Obama wants to do, but let me tell you, Hillary's ideas are fucked!"
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Triana Orpheus
03/05/09

@coconanas: Seriously, can you imaging voting for Palin just because she was a woman when her policies were as anti-woman as one could get? I think she might have been worse than John McCain. McCain just sold his soul because he wanted to be president, she believed that stuff.
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yvanehtnioj
03/05/09

@LaFemme: Exactly. And people will jump between HRC and Palin in trying to explain away any sexism, which prevents an honest look at the election through the lens of gender.
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yvanehtnioj
03/05/09

In reply to The Dearth Of Women In Politics Is Not Just Due To Sexism
Count me in with the women who think part of the reason she lost is sexism. Is this so controversial?
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sweet cuppin' cakes needs coffee
03/05/09

@yvanehtnioj: "Iron my shirt", anyone?

I think that sexism played a large role in it, more than people can really identify consciously. It's a valid point to bring up. But I also really like Megan's analysis here. Brilliant as always, madam :)
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chritter is a nocturnal feminist mancatfish
03/05/09

@yvanehtnioj: Count me in with the men who think the same thing, although I also think there were other factors in play, i.e., baggage from the last Clinton administration, desire to go in a new direction, running into a buzzsaw in the form of an unknown Illinois junior senator, etc. But that sexism wasn't part of the equation hardly seems questionable.
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vamusical
03/05/09

@yvanehtnioj: No! I think it's just controversial to think it's the ONLY reason.
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kithkin
03/05/09

@vamusical: Who thinks it's the only reason?
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yvanehtnioj
03/05/09

@vamusical: Yeah, but the people polled called it a major factor (not the only one) and the other poll said that men and women are held to different standards. Nobody's saying that it's the only reason. This post is bothering me with its "when will they stop whining/ YOU CAN'T PROVE ANYTHING!" vibe.
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kelsium
03/05/09

@yvanehtnioj: I don't get that from it at all. I think that what Megan's trying to get people to do is not just call it "sexism" and leave it at that, but to actually examine the structures that prevent women who could very well be valid candidates from getting a campaign off the ground. I don't see anything apologist in that message.
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deeemer
03/05/09

@yvanehtnioj: Actually, I think she lost because of Bill Clinton.

I'm in the minority, though.
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Eeva
03/05/09

@yvanehtnioj: Fuck yes, it's part of the reason. It's a huge part.
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kithkin
03/05/09

@kelsium: There are structures like the patriarchy in general at work, too. I mean, it's great to get the civics lesson about gerrymandering, but I feel like there's been a little bit of a straw man setup here. No one thinks sexism is the only reason HRC didn't win the Presidency, but I, like yvan, didn't think it was controversial to feel it was one reason.
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RollRoll
03/05/09

@yvanehtnioj: It's facile is the problem with it.

There are a number of more complex structural issues that keep women minorities, and any non WASP males from running for office.

So a one-word catch-all isn't going to catch those nuances, as Megan demonstrates.
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yvanehtnioj
03/05/09

@RollRoll: You're missing my point, I think. I'm not saying that one word can sum up the disadvantages she faced, or explain the outcome. But sexism played a part, and acting like it didn't is very fishy to me.
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baraqiel
03/05/09

@RollRoll: No, it's facile to say that sexism is the only reason that prevents more women from running for office *in general*. But Hillary had already gotten past every single other thing that Megan cited. That leaves two things: Hillary's fitness as a candidate and sexism. *Personally*, I think the latter contributed more than the former but paled in comparison to how good Obama was/is. But you can't say that gerrymandering or what have you is responsible for Hillary losing.
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Hana Maru
03/05/09

@yvanehtnioj: It shouldn't be, but it is. Sexism was a huge factor in how she was treated.
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DangerMouse
03/05/09

@deeemer: I'm willing to attribute some percentage to that... if only because I have family members who hate Bill Clinton with the fire of a thousand suns, and Hillary is caught up in the association.

I think Obama had a better chance on the national stage because of that.
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