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Fri Dec 18
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Jezebel 
10/21/09
10/20/09
What you have to understand is that this woman and her situation represent your rights as a woman. It is not a question of morality or character; it is a question of constitutional rights. Specifically, YOUR constitutional rights. If the government is allowed into her uterus, who's to say that, given the right circumstances they will not be allowed in yours.
Not to compare the two but there is a reason prosecutors do not chose female jurors in statutory rape cases; we judge. We sit back and we judge a woman who "gets herself into" a situation we could not envision getting into ourselves and we punish her for it - even if it means sacrificing our constitutional rights. #pregnancy
10/21/09
10/20/09
p.s. You can get abortions when you're in jail ...and sometimes at the taxpayers expense even.
p.p.s. "....because having illegal drugs in your body is not a crime..." Um, yes, it is. The prisons are full of non-pregnant drug addicts so this is just not true. #pregnancy
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/20/09
For example:
"Regina McKnight suffered a stillbirth, was charged with homicide by child abuse and was tried and convicted. Although Ms. McKnight had no criminal record, she was sentenced to twenty years imprisonment with eight years suspended. On appeal, the South Carolina State Supreme Court held that viable fetuses are persons under the state's homicide statute, effectively transforming a stillbirth from personal and family tragedy to "depraved heart" homicide. The decision permits conviction on any evidence that a pregnant woman engaged in activity "public[ly] know[n]" to be "potentially fatal" to a fetus. No one in this case believed that Ms. McKnight had any intention of harming the fetus or losing the pregnancy. Had Ms. McKnight sought to end her pregnancy by having an illegal third trimester abortion, her sentence would have been two years in jail. Experts working on her appeals conclude that her stillbirth was caused by an infection wholly unrelated to drug use."
The specifics of Lovill's individual case aside (would she have been jailed for a probation violation if she hadn't been pregnant? I think maybe not, given the ADA's quote above) , there is a trend toward jailing/prosecuting pregnant women by treating them as vessels for future children, especially if drug use is involved. #pregnancy
10/20/09
The implications of this case are far greater than whether or not this woman is fit to carry a child (which she is certainly not). #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
She had previously given birth to two children with severe birth defects who had to be cared for at the government's expense in mental health facilities. She was incarcerated while pregnant with the third.
It was a very complicated week for our class. I am pro-choice, and I agree that the legal system shouldn't penalize pregnant women....but something should be done. There has to be a better alternative than just letting her sniff all the glue she can afford to avoid infringing on her rights.
How about placing her in a mental health facility instead of prison? Wouldn't that be the best option for her and her potential children?
As for this American case. She violated her parole, this is true. But since when has anyone gotten clean in prison? This clearly isn't going to help anyone involved (be they fetus or born alive). #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
I don't consider my viewpoints extreme but I do have an interest in both constitutional law and women's rights and while your totally human, middle-of-the-road POV doesn't surprise me, it does make me a little sad.
Taxes? #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
If they sent her to a treatment program I wonder how it would work? Maybe well, maybe not. But the bottom line is, she violated her probation and for the sake of the child [I'm using child because she intends to keep it] it is best that shes there off the drugs and with health care. She can barely take care of herself if shes making these decisions, let the fetus shes choosing to turn into a child have a chance beyond her.
My fiance is a cop and I hear stories like this all the time, maybe this colors my response, but its frustrating as hell to keep seeing the cycle repeat itself when you offer help and they still choose the detrimental paths.
10/20/09
Oh boy. #pregnancy
10/20/09
When I was anorexic, I was hospitalized with a lady, Daniella, who was 8 months pregnant and massively bipolar. She had two children already which had been removed from her due to neglect/abuse (depending on whether she was manic or depressive at the time) and she was about to give birth. She chain smoked, she cursed out everyone around her, she was very nearly violent but not quite. She was paranoid (I was on my way to the bathroom while she was on her way to her room, both at the end of the same hallway, and she suddenly stopped and asked me if I was following her. She did however believe my reply of "all I want is to pee!")
Daniella was very ill but was not a danger to herself or others - except her kids. Because of this, the govt. decided to put in the psych ward for the last weeks of her pregnancy. She refused her meds and often had them forced on her when she became so wild that she could hurt herself or others. The nurses hated injecting her with antipsychotics and sedatives for the sake of the fetus, but had no choice. Daniella was adamant about keeping the baby but in addition to being unqualified to care for it, the only real reason she wanted to keep him or her (I left before she gave birth) was because others wanted to take him away. Her sister had custody of her other kids.
Towards the end of my hospitalization, she began to approach sanity. I think she even began to internalize that not only was her kid not gonna stay with her, but that it was probably for the best. That was so sad.
Being hospitalized for anorexia (a severe disorder to be sure, but not psychosis) taught me so much about mental illness and humanity in general. I was exposed to more raw emotion in those months than I had before or have since. It was an educational experience.
My point is, sometimes hospitalizing a pregnant mother for the good of the potential child is necessary. Before I knew Daniella I wouldn't have thought so, but now I know better. Is jailing a pregnant woman the same as hospitalizing? I don't know.
Just my 13 cents (it was a long post!!) #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
I own my own business, am completely independent (no more momma money) - hell, I even volunteer and pay taxes, not to mention feed an entire feral cat colony.
Being in hospital was the worst thing I ever went through... and it saved my life. When I went in, 4 years ago, I was told that on my current track I had six months to live. Hospital was terrifying and horrible and I still have flashbacks (actual PTSD stuff) about it - but without it, I wouldn't be alive today. I went from a charity case - someone who couldn't hold down a job, was living on disability and money from my parents, someone who didn't expect and wasn't expected to make anything of themselves (let alone live for long) to a small business owner who, just yesterday met with a real estate attourney about the option of buying my first, own house.
Any anorexics (or otherwise sick) folks reading this: Hospital is scary. And awful. It sucks. And it saved my life.
Wow I'm spewing up a lot of emotional stuff today. Ah well - back to watching stargate! #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
And beyond that, if a we had easier access to birth control, pre- AND post-conception, perhaps we would have fewer women getting pregnant when they don't want to or know it's not a good time or able to abort (ideally unwanted) children that they know will be affected by a behavior they are not able to control at that time. #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
Exactly I agree 100%. I don't see what people aren't getting with this. If you intend to get an abortion and your partying it up fine, but if you choose to go on with your pregnancy it then becomes a potential person with the potential for a whole host of problems. #pregnancy
10/20/09
I'm with you that a woman who chooses to keep a baby has an obligation to help that baby be born healthy. I'm just not sure what responsibility the state has in making sure she does. #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
I know here in Orlando women have been kicked out of bars for entering while pregnant--not even trying to drink or smoke, just going INTO a bar. Women here have been refused alcohol sales. When I get closer to my due date my husband is going to have to pick up the liquor for the house parties even though I usually do because it's easier, just because I don't want to be humiliated like that. #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
Ironically, some government officials are looking to do just that. #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
The beauty of the constitution is that it is both strict and flexible in terms of interpretation. It lives, as far as I'm concerned. This, however, is not a matter of interpretation as her incarceration was a clear violation of the fourteenth amendment. In terms of the law, this is rather cut and dry.
If this woman were my best friend or sister I'd slap her into next week for being an idiot but I'd defend her rights. #pregnancy
10/21/09
Not trying to be bitchy, but man, she's dead-ass, all-around wrong and there should be some protection for the baby/fetus/potential human in question. #pregnancy
10/21/09
if anyone smokes in front of a pregnant woman, period, can they be charged with child endangerment?
no. but...if a woman smokes while pregnant...should we be able to put her in jail so she CAN'T smoke?
cigarettes are drugs. they are dangerous, addictive drugs that cause tons of problems with newborns. the fact that they are legal doesn't make them un-drugs. so...if we are ok with locking up/punishing/incarcerating a pregnant methhead....by extension, we are ok with incarcerating a pregnant woman who is 1. a smoker , 2. anorexic, 3. an alcoholic 4. drives without a seatbelt... #pregnancy
10/21/09
10/21/09
And her baby, almost two now, was born healthy and is in the care of her family.
I agree that "something needs to be done" but you don't enact change by depriving someone of their rights. #pregnancy
10/22/09
10/22/09
10/22/09
10/24/09
10/20/09
The court always has the right to put someone who is violating the terms of their probation into jail or prison. When judges hear violation of probation cases, they weigh the circumstances of the violation and determine whether the violator should be incarcerated or have his or her probation extended or altered. In Lovill's case, I imagine her pregnancy was another factor to be weighed. It says at the beginning that she dropped positive several times over the course of her probation. At least in my criminal court experience, it is not unusual that she would have to serve time for that violation. Her pregnancy was probably just the icing on the cake, so to speak. #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
What the difficulty is that women are the sole "carriers" of babies. I'm sorry, men cannot become pregnant. I assure you: if they could (and I would love for it to happen!), and they harmed the fetus because they took drugs, we would have a case against them, too. Since women can, they're perceived as being unfairly punished. Well, perhaps it's unfair because biology made it so.
The only thing that worries me is that this can be used against the right to abort. Other than that, I have no real problem with this. #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
And I think this is the most important line: "No, she said, because having illegal drugs in your body is not a crime — even for a pregnant woman." There are plenty of activities that are "bad" for pregnant women: being on drugs, drinking, smoking, lifting heavy objects. But none of these are illegal, and to use any of them as a reason to incarcerate a pregnant woman is unconscionable. Pro-choice means allowing a woman to make choices about her body AFTER pregnancy, too. #pregnancy
10/20/09
Agreed that prison is the absolute wrong place for her to be. #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
should go to jail #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
10/20/09
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10/20/09
10/20/09
What's the point of giving drug tests if you're not actually going to revoke probation? #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09