Um, yay? As a vegetarian, I am no fan of hunting. I do recognize that hunters and fisher-people are a large segment of the conservation movement. I understand it's use in animal population control to stave off starvation. And I also understand this is something some people may need to do to keep the freezer full. That's all fine.
Actually, I think if people were forced to kill and butcher their own meat we might have more vegetarians today. People are pretty blase about eating meat because they don't have to see where it comes from.
Personally, I couldn't reconcile that in my mind anymore. I could not wish away knowing that animals were being killed in pretty inhumane ways to fill my gullet.
If that makes me snobby and elitist... I don't agree. I'm living by my own code of ethics, which I obviously think is right, but I don't force that on anyone else or hold their meat eating or hunting ways against them. Just don't invite me on your deer hunt or show me pictures of you butchering your alligator or mock my vegetarianism and animal rights position and we'll get along swimmingly.
Edited by Mireille is German for the Bart, the. at 09/18/09 12:23 PM
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@Mireille is German for the Bart, the.: I hate it when people give vegetarians a hard time. There are many reasons people choose not to eat meat or other animal products, like environmental concerns. As a meat-eater and supporter of responsible hunting, I can also totally understand people who advocate for LESS meat-eating, who don't see it as wrong if they or another person consumes meat at some point in time, so long as they're doing their part to reduce consumption.
And if it's for an animal rights position? Great! You just can't assume that people make these choices for the same reasons.
Plus, most vegetarians that I know, contrary to what the stereotypes might suggest, don't try to make you feel guilty for not being the same.
Everybody eats, and in order for each of us to eat, something - animal or plant - has to die. Some are able to kill their own food, either through hunting or by gathering, and some pay for their food at the store, and by doing so, have paid someone else to do the killing and gathering.
Does it matter how you got your food? If you are okay with how you got your food, can you not criticize how I got mine? I hunt, fish, garden, harvest berries, do my own butchering, make jelly, etc.
Hunting might not be pretty, but neither are corporate fish and animal farms. And industrial farming for vegetables is not always pretty or good for the earth.
So I'm going to be happy for Cammie Colin for doing something she enjoyed and that provided her food.
It amazes me how many fellow suburban midwesterners look at me like I'm some sort of redneck/general uncivilized being when I tell them I eat venison that my dad hunted. I'd be fine with that reaction if 100% of these people were vegan, but in my opinion, if you eat meat, you have no right to look down on responsible hunting (i.e. killing for food and using the animal, not just killing for trophy).
Also, these people, more often than not, tend to be liberals like me, which, for the most part support the green initiative and environmentalism. Oddly enough, many hunters are environmentalists. They appreciate nature and want to protect it. Hunters are people that enjoy being in nature and tend to take full advantage of its gifts. They appreciate being active members of the food chain as an alternative to buying all their meat from a factory farm.
So I totally understand if you don't want to be the one to actually shoot an animal. That's how I am. But know where your food comes from. I think factory farming is wrong and harmful, but really, hunted animals are as organic/free-range as it gets.
@la_periodista: I agree with hunting and use of the whole animal. I have a much easier time reconciling that over factory farming for environmental reasons, as long as hunting and trapping are contained in conservation efforts and cooperation amongst all hunters to avoid depleting populations by over-hunting, or only hunting the strong and largest animals.
@elliebean: Yeah, I believe that's why the have things like doe permits and how it's illegal to not register(/pay for?) deer you kill. Or something. I don't know the lingo. And actually, here in Michigan, the state and DNR gets a LOT of revenue from hunters, so regulation is good for the economy. We need all the help we can get!
I can understand the point of view that hunting is barbaric or wrong, but if you eat meat, you've got to admit it's probably more humane than factory farmed meat. And it's a lot more environmentally sound. I don't hunt myself, but I don't see how it's worse than eating a cow or a pig that's been mistreated its entire miserable life. At least the alligator lived most of its life in the wild, in its natural state, with enough freedom to move around. Can't say that for bacon, I'm afraid.
@nellicat: I can't help but feel that part of the reason why it's so acceptable for people, even people who eat meat, to look down on hunting, is because it's done mostly by rural poor folks. I'm talking about hunting for meat, of course, not big game hunting or anything like that.
I agree that it sucks that the alligator suffered. It sucks that animals suffer at all. But it's definitely no worse than McNuggets. Hunting can definitely be cruel, but slaughterhouses are extremely dangerous places to work, so there's human suffering at play as well, in addition to the protracted, lifelong suffering of all the animals there.
@SarahMC: But folks here aren't talking about factory farming. Folks here are talking about hunting - and unless you are vegan, you are killing and/or exploiting animals for your pleasure. Even if you buy only "free range" eggs or eat only cows that were killed one at a time instead of en masse.
The death of an animal that is meant to be eaten (or disposed of if her egg/milk production drops) is brutal and unnatural, no matter how pretty the pasture in which it takes place.
@jenny_dreadful: I eat meat, I am fine with hunting, I think people are too removed from their food origins and lack a sense of survival. I agree with everything you said. Newsflash: not every kill is perfect.
@nellicat: I don't oppose killing animals for food. I oppose needless suffering and cruelty to animals, which includes factory farming and incidents like this with the alligator.
@Zombies make the heart grow fonder: Yeah, it's like, it's okay to eat meat as long as it's killed by invisible brown people under really dangerous conditions someplace far, far away. If you can't bear to think of the horror of killing an animal, then why have someone else do it for you? I eat meat, by the way, the pearl clutching is just really getting to me.
@SarahMC: I just cannot understand how someone who eats meat can be opposed to hunting. how is this any worse than eating bacon and eggs at a diner? Can you explain it to me?
@SarahMC: Sometimes in hunting bad kills happen (though most often they do not). I'm sure they tried their hardest to end it as quickly as they could, like some of the other commenters mentioned alligators dive down and don't resurface to make for a clear shot. I don't believe for one minute they were trying to torture the animal.
@jenny_dreadful: Why are you assuming that just because someone has an issue with this that they are against all forms of hunting? That is an assumption on your part that is not based on logic. I'm opposed to CRUELTY. Some forms of "hunting" are cruel. Factory farming is cruel. Killing an animal is not necessarily cruel but some methods of killing are. Get it?
@SarahMC: Not sure why you have to be so nasty about it, but I can certainly see your point. I think we both agree that unnecessary suffering should be eliminated. Is your take on it that given this particular set of restrictions, that alligator hutning is inherently cruel?
@LaComtesse: I only meant "unnatural" in the sense that it happens prematurely, by an outside cause, as opposed to a "natural" death of old age or something.
@jenny_dreadful: I think spearing an animal in an attempt to kill it is cruel. Like with whales.
To clarify, though, I do oppose hunting that's just done for shits and giggles. Unless you're going to make use of the animal, it's wrong. I'm also damn sick of hunters discarding their dogs when they're no longer of use to them.
@jenny_dreadful: I grew up in a fairly urban part of Michigan where a good majority of the population hunted. These weren't poor, rural people. They were working and middle class people that didn't live in the country.
They didn't hunt out of necessity either. They hunt and fish because it was a cultural tradition. Hunting is a cultural tradition for many in Michigan. Not usually a necessity, something that I find is often misrepresented when discussing the motivation of many hunters.
Additionally, I have nothing against hunting for necessity, per se. I don't like the fact that people hunt AND fish for sport though (something about killing for sport bothers me). I also fail to see how bow hunting is considered humane in any way, shape or form...though maybe I'm missing something.
The reason she didn't use a rifle was because it is against the law in the state of South Carolina. You are permitted to use a handgun to kill it once you have captured or speared it. The problem is that the gator will dive right to the bottom, then not surface again until its dead.
@msAnthrope: You can't shoot a handgun into the water and expect to have a clear shot. So if the alligator didn't surface, they would have to wait until it surfaced to discharge the weapon safely.
@GirlFailer: i continue to be fascinated with the discrepancy in what humans can and can't do. we can split genomes and take photos of galaxies billions of miles away, but we can't figure out a quicker more humane way to kill an alligator other than letting him drag a boat for an hour while he suffers, until he's too tired and surfaces upon when he's killed.
can't help but thinking this is part of what gets off a lot of hunters~~ having the alligator drag them for extended periods. yee-hah!
@msAnthrope: There's no way a handgun round would have much ballistic energy even 4 feet into the water to pierce alligator skull. Besides it would be moving, flailing and otherwise and moving targets are incredibly hard to hit and even more so from the moving platform of a boat.
@msAnthrope: I can't speak for every hunter, and I don't hunt myself, but my family does. I think for most people it's a combination of sport/food/marksmanship that hunters enjoy. Most people that hunt don't let animals suffer, and try to end things as quickly as possible. That's where marksmanship comes in. This sounds like they couldn't get a clear shot at the gator and couldn't use a rifle to shoot into the water.
@msAnthrope: You could shoot it with a rifle from 300 yards, but then it may not be certain to die instantly and swim away and die somewhere else. Most hunting laws are made by people who know the habits of the animals and nature of hunting and the weapons used.
@GirlFailer: Also, I know many people don't agree with hunting, and that is fine! I, personally, am a meat eater, and I find it more humane to hunt meat than it being farmed. Though I do eat both.
@GirlFailer: I have far more respect for people like my brother, who hunt their meat, than people like me, who eat meat and have never seen an animal die.
@GirlFailer: I don't like most game (venison= blegh) so that's probably reason #1, but my brother is an amazing shot, so if I WERE into game, I'd probably just send him out. :-p
@GirlFailer: I'm not much of a hunter myself, but I had a conversation a couple of weeks ago that I think is relevant.
I live in Wyoming at the moment, and one of the guys I work with is/was an avid bow hunter. It's my cousin's and brother's style of choice, so we were talking about ethical kills and why he prefers it to hunting with a gun -- that hunting with a bow requires real skill and certainty, because you want to bring the animal down totally with one clean shot so it doesn't suffer, and it's more of an actual "predator" experience because you have to work for it. He hasn't hunted since a deer bolted exactly when he took a shot and he had to go finish it with a knife -- he still feels bad about it.
The thing that struck me was when he was saying his favorite hunting trip he didn't bag anything -- he and his buddy tracked an elk for five hours, waiting, trying to stay downwind, observing, and eventually the elk took off. For him, it was the thrill of the actual work and respecting the animal enough to be a careful tracker, rather than the kill itself. REAL hunters, the ones I respect most -- I think this is what they get from it; it's almost like good sportsmanship.
@msAnthrope: Yee-hah? I have never hunted, but I have fished, and a lot of fishing does involve letting the fish run out the line until it tires. You can't reel it in forcibly or the line will break.
@BlueJeans: Exactly. I have heard similar story from my aunt and uncle on a kill that did not go as planned, and they were really upset about it. It's certainly not the norm, but it happens, and any hunter worth his salt would be upset about it. You will hear most hunters talk first about the beauty and the size of the animal long before you'll hear about the actual kill.
Gah. This is not the type of equality I want... "See, girls? You too can go shoot an animal and watch it languish and struggle to escape for an hour before it gets shot in the head... just like the boys!"
@curglaff: i'm on board with this sentiment. it's like no matter what barbaric crap a guy does, if a woman can manage it, then it's great! that's more sexist than anything. it's like, only what men do is worth anything.
@curglaff: See, I don't think that's fair. If a girl happens to enjoy hunting and does it well, why doesn't she deserve the same praise a man would get? If you don't agree with hunting that's fine, but I don't see any reason to beyond that to say "this is not the type of equality you want". Some people hunt, and women deserve to enjoy the sport just like men.
@GirlFailer: Like I said in my comment below, this is my hometown. EVERYONE hunts. It's not a boy v. girl thing - the first day of deer season half the school is out sitting in a deer stand somewhere, regardless of gender. I grew up watching baseball with my dad, some of my friends grew up hunting with their dads. And yet you don't disparage me for my love of sports...
@Le Kangourou de Kataroo: Wait, do you think I disagree with you? I don't, I agree with you totally. Or are you agreeing with me? I'm confused Le Kangourou!
@GirlFailer: I'm agreeing with you! Sorry! This has me all worked up. "WHO'S GOING TO THINK OF THE GATORS?!?!?!?!?" It's like deep sea fishing people - sometimes you have to shoot the fish to get it in the boat, but you have to wait til the fish is tired enough to reel it in to shoot it so it doesn't hurt everyone on the boat.
So are gators the equivalent to deer in the South where they are seen as vermin? we all know it is actually mankind who has taken over their habitats, but it is easier to blame the animal. Just wonderin''
@MissFiFi: God, I hate those arguments. "Well, the wolves/coyotes aren't keeping the deer in check. They're wandering around the neighborhoods getting hit by cars and digging in the trash. They NEED to be killed." Yeah, it's just some crazy coincidence that there aren't enough coyotes and wolves around, right? And the house you wanted in the exurbs, close to nature, is now too close to nature. So nature needs to make way for you.
@Gumbina80: That's not actually how it has worked. In the Northeast the deer are taking over and there has been an increase in coyotes. This is in towns that have been around since the 1700s, not in newly cleared forests. Right outside of Boston. Not in the "exurbs". Deer love suburban habitat.
This is from my hometown! My brothers went to that high school.
They followed all the standard procedures for hunting alligators. She just happened to be the one who won the lottery for the permit, so she was the one who got to shoot.
They only give out 1,000 alligator permits a year. There's around 100,000 alligators in SC.
The whole shooting the gator and killing it an hour later could have something to do with the fact that they couldn’t get a good shot after the initial one, so they would have to wait for it to tire out so they could safely get close. If this is the case… yeah, I don’t have a huge problem with it.
@LaComtesse: suppose it were an elephant instead of an alligator? or some other animal more endearing? a whale, maybe, or dolphin. still okay that the animal suffered for an hour so the state of SC can collect fees for these lotteries?
@msAnthrope: Elephants are endangered, so no. Dolphins, interestingly enough, I just had a discussion about this the other day: I have no problem with responsibly hunting dolphins. Cute and fuzzy makes no difference to me. As someone who eats meat, I'm not going to hypocritically decide which bountiful animal it's okay to eat and which it's not.
@nellicat: Ha! Oh I remember that! Hilarious. I always liked on the Simpsons when Marge referred to tuna as "brain food... I guess because of all the dolphins in it, and you know how smart they are."
How embarrassing for the gator to have a 16 year old girl take it down. Not as embarrassing, however, as when an entire team of Gators were taken down by Ole Miss last year.
@morninggloria: It knows where I live, it calls to me in the night....Big game for ND this weekend, if they don't win I assume Weiss will be promptly run out of town on a rail.
@morninggloria: Whoa whoa whoa MoGlo-them be fightin words...Look, Tebow cried after that game and then those magical tears lead the team to yet another National Championship ;) Take that you silly ND fan.
That gator in SC though is definitely the laughing stock of all the remaining gators...
Boyfriend is a Florida grad, and pretty much a superfan. He has a suit that's half orange and half blue that he wears sometimes. Every week, I pray that the Gators win, because if they do not, Boyfriend sinks into a deep depression.
@GirlFailer: For real. It's been a long time since I've eaten meat, and my tastes as a child weren't very discerning, but I've had alligator meat and remember it being so gross and stringy. I was never a big carnivore, maybe it's delicious to most other people.
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Actually, I think if people were forced to kill and butcher their own meat we might have more vegetarians today. People are pretty blase about eating meat because they don't have to see where it comes from.
Personally, I couldn't reconcile that in my mind anymore. I could not wish away knowing that animals were being killed in pretty inhumane ways to fill my gullet.
If that makes me snobby and elitist... I don't agree. I'm living by my own code of ethics, which I obviously think is right, but I don't force that on anyone else or hold their meat eating or hunting ways against them. Just don't invite me on your deer hunt or show me pictures of you butchering your alligator or mock my vegetarianism and animal rights position and we'll get along swimmingly.
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And if it's for an animal rights position? Great! You just can't assume that people make these choices for the same reasons.
Plus, most vegetarians that I know, contrary to what the stereotypes might suggest, don't try to make you feel guilty for not being the same.
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Everybody eats, and in order for each of us to eat, something - animal or plant - has to die. Some are able to kill their own food, either through hunting or by gathering, and some pay for their food at the store, and by doing so, have paid someone else to do the killing and gathering.
Does it matter how you got your food? If you are okay with how you got your food, can you not criticize how I got mine? I hunt, fish, garden, harvest berries, do my own butchering, make jelly, etc.
Hunting might not be pretty, but neither are corporate fish and animal farms. And industrial farming for vegetables is not always pretty or good for the earth.
So I'm going to be happy for Cammie Colin for doing something she enjoyed and that provided her food.
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Also, these people, more often than not, tend to be liberals like me, which, for the most part support the green initiative and environmentalism. Oddly enough, many hunters are environmentalists. They appreciate nature and want to protect it. Hunters are people that enjoy being in nature and tend to take full advantage of its gifts. They appreciate being active members of the food chain as an alternative to buying all their meat from a factory farm.
So I totally understand if you don't want to be the one to actually shoot an animal. That's how I am. But know where your food comes from. I think factory farming is wrong and harmful, but really, hunted animals are as organic/free-range as it gets.
I wish more people would consider this!
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I agree that it sucks that the alligator suffered. It sucks that animals suffer at all. But it's definitely no worse than McNuggets. Hunting can definitely be cruel, but slaughterhouses are extremely dangerous places to work, so there's human suffering at play as well, in addition to the protracted, lifelong suffering of all the animals there.
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The death of an animal that is meant to be eaten (or disposed of if her egg/milk production drops) is brutal and unnatural, no matter how pretty the pasture in which it takes place.
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To clarify, though, I do oppose hunting that's just done for shits and giggles. Unless you're going to make use of the animal, it's wrong. I'm also damn sick of hunters discarding their dogs when they're no longer of use to them.
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But I support killing one's own food over factory farms any day.
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They didn't hunt out of necessity either. They hunt and fish because it was a cultural tradition. Hunting is a cultural tradition for many in Michigan. Not usually a necessity, something that I find is often misrepresented when discussing the motivation of many hunters.
Additionally, I have nothing against hunting for necessity, per se. I don't like the fact that people hunt AND fish for sport though (something about killing for sport bothers me). I also fail to see how bow hunting is considered humane in any way, shape or form...though maybe I'm missing something.
Just an FYI - I'm not vegan either.
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(Actually, I'd be impressed if she did that.)
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[www.dnr.sc.gov]
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can't help but thinking this is part of what gets off a lot of hunters~~ having the alligator drag them for extended periods. yee-hah!
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I live in Wyoming at the moment, and one of the guys I work with is/was an avid bow hunter. It's my cousin's and brother's style of choice, so we were talking about ethical kills and why he prefers it to hunting with a gun -- that hunting with a bow requires real skill and certainty, because you want to bring the animal down totally with one clean shot so it doesn't suffer, and it's more of an actual "predator" experience because you have to work for it. He hasn't hunted since a deer bolted exactly when he took a shot and he had to go finish it with a knife -- he still feels bad about it.
The thing that struck me was when he was saying his favorite hunting trip he didn't bag anything -- he and his buddy tracked an elk for five hours, waiting, trying to stay downwind, observing, and eventually the elk took off. For him, it was the thrill of the actual work and respecting the animal enough to be a careful tracker, rather than the kill itself. REAL hunters, the ones I respect most -- I think this is what they get from it; it's almost like good sportsmanship.
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They followed all the standard procedures for hunting alligators. She just happened to be the one who won the lottery for the permit, so she was the one who got to shoot.
They only give out 1,000 alligator permits a year. There's around 100,000 alligators in SC.
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Nerves: I have them.
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That gator in SC though is definitely the laughing stock of all the remaining gators...
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Boyfriend is a Florida grad, and pretty much a superfan. He has a suit that's half orange and half blue that he wears sometimes. Every week, I pray that the Gators win, because if they do not, Boyfriend sinks into a deep depression.
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