Jezebel 
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New York, 1:00 PM
Sat Dec 19
73 posts in the last 24 hours
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12/07/09
It is what first got me hooked on the story and have been following it ever since. This article explains the evidence of the case and the actions of the all the players just before and just after the crime. It is a compelling read.....
[www.friendsofamanda.org]
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....honestly, what thoughts are in people's heads that this is a rational process? Do we still think that to have unmarried sex is to corrupt your moral fibre/uterus? What about guys who have a lot of sex? Do they also end up killing people too?
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Amanda Knox didn't get a fair trial, though. The only thing the prosecution had on her and her boyfriend were inconsistent stories about where they were on the night of the murder. That's enough to charge them with obstructing justice or being accessories after the fact or some [edit: lesser crime], but there's a massive logical and evidentiary gap between that and charging them with rape and murder.
The authorities treated them in ways that maximized the chances of inconsistent statements. Knox was interrogated for hours without the benefit of counsel. She alleges the police beat her in custody. So, that explains at least some of the inconsistencies in her story. Add to that the fact that she and her boyfriend were, by their own admission, stoned out of their minds on the night in question--so it's not hard to believe that they might not remember.
It's a logical fallacy to assume the only reason someone might lie about their alibi is because they're the murderer.
I might be more inclined to care about their inconsistent stories if the prosecution gave us a plausible motive. This whole orgy hypothesis is a figment of the prosecutor's lurid imagination. Nobody testified about any kind of sex game. There was no physical evidence of any kind of ritual.
There's ironclad forensic evidence tying Rudy Gerde to the rape and murder of Meredith Kercher. There's nothing to suggest that Knox or her boyfriend had ever been in Kercher's room, let alone that they were present during the attack. The DNA of Knox's boyfriend and five other unrelated people were found on the bra clasp after it sat on the floor for 6 weeks in the dust (which is mostly shed human skin cells, so it's hardly far-fetched to think it might have been cross-contaminated).
12/07/09
Not to say that Amanda Knox shouldn't have had a fair trial (of course she should have, and her sex life shouldn't have been treated like damning evidence), but really? Boycotting all things Italian because they convicted an American woman of a crime? There was still evidence against her, and, her ITALIAN boyfriend was also convicted of the same crime, so that leads me to think, at the very least, that this wasn't some grand scheme on the part of the Italians to lock up a sweet innocent American girl.
Methinks that people care less about the fact that it was clearly a mistrial, than they do about the fact that she's a pretty, blonde, American woman.
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12/07/09
Also, I don't think it's fair to use the conviction as proof of anti-Americanism in Italy (not directed at you, just in general). I'm currently in Italy, but from what my dad tells me and from what I've read, people are going nuts in the States right now because they think the conviction was just the result of some deeply ingrained anti-Americanism in Europe (which I don't think is the case, at least in my experience...most Italians I've encountered are flattered by my attempts to speak to them in their language, and they're all fascinated by and want to hear all about New York City. Even in the midst of Amanda Knox, I haven't really encountered much hate simply for being an American who is living abroad).
I think the important thing for us to extract from this case, in terms of traveling abroad, is that it's vital to demand to see someone from the US consulate if you ever fall upon unfortunate circumstances like Amanda's. It's not her fault that the trial played out like it did because she probably either didn't know to do this, or she was under too much duress and it slipped her mind. But, I think if she had sought out help before talking to the police, maybe the trial wouldn't have played out as it had. I've said this a million times on the other threads about Amanda Knox, but it deserves plenty of repetition.
12/07/09
Dang, maybe I'll boycott America.
12/07/09
However you feel about the trial, beating your chest about the awfulness of slut shamming while doing nothing to address the inadequacy of our own judicial system is just empty theatrics.
I know this is cold, but I honestly couldn't care less about her. As a black woman, I'm more worried about being arrested in the US for a crime I didn't commit than Italy. FYI, I was arrested three years ago for trespassing, in MY OWN BUILDING! I was handcuffed, fingerprinted, and chained to a radiator until they found a empty cell for me. One cop even asked for my number. And I had to go to court, all because I took pictures from my roof. The judge laughed and threw out the case because he knew it was bullshit, but I still had to take a day off work. My brother and his friends are constantly harassed and they aren't even allowed to sit on the benches around his home because he could be charged with loitering.
So Amanda Knox, couldn't fucking careless. I'll focuse my energy on more pressing matters
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12/07/09
This is the only place where I can express my opinion about the American justice system without being flamed; anywhere else I'd be accused of hating America or somesuch nonsense.
12/07/09
All I'm saying is that even in the small universe of people who are totally and completely dedicated to protecting Americans from unjust and unfair prosecution, we still find time to be flabbergasted by the Knox trial and what a zoo it turned into. And yeah, she's a poster child for my "talk to a fucking lawyer" rant.
12/07/09
A few months ago Dateline or one of those shows did a story about her and they spoke about how she writes in her diary that she forgives her ex for turning on her, calling him a "silly boy" and saying that she'd take him back in the end. It sounded to me like a classic sociopath. Now, I know a few sociopaths and most of them are pretty sexually-charged, but again, that's not what I think makes her guilty.
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In one of her earlier statements to the police, Knox implicated Patrick Diya Lumumba (the owner of the bar she worked part time) in the murder, saying:[22]
"I don't remember if my friend Meredith was already there or whether she came later. What I can say is that the two of them (Meredith and Patrick) went off together... Patrick and Meredith went off together into Meredith's room while I think I stayed in the kitchen. I can't remember how long they were in the bedroom together, I can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming and I was so frightened I put my fingers in my ears. I don't remember anything after that, my head is really confused. I don’t remember if Meredith called out or if I heard thuds because I was upset, but I can imagine what was happening...I'm not sure whether Raffaele was there too that evening but I do remember waking up at his house in his bed and that in the morning I went back to where I lived, where I found the door open."
That doesn't sound like her hypothesizing if a black guy killed her. It sounds like she was squarely implicating Patrick.
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Look, I don't care who she implicated, she could implicate the Pope. What I do care is that she was not give a fair trial. Full stop. That is not OK.
12/07/09
What adds credibility to her statement is that before Guede was suspected, when they only had Amanda, Meredith, and Patrick in custody, the Italian police immediately claimed the case was closed. There was DNA all over the crime scene, Kercher's and Guede's, and yet they couldn't buy a clue by the time they had claimed they had solved the murder.
Also, regardless of her behavior, especially when being interiewed by police in a foreign country without a lawyer, they still have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was in that room when Kercher was murdered. They can't.
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12/07/09
Wait, what? You know a few sociopaths? How do you know them? Are you a therapist or something? How do you know that they are sociopaths? Are you just guessing that they're sociopaths because of some of their traits?
And because "most" of the sociopaths you know are pretty sexually charged, you are somehow drawing a conclusion that Knox is a sociopath and sexually charged?
Very odd.
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12/07/09
At the end of the day, she will get her 2 appeals and probably be back in Seattle in under 2 years with the right pressure. Meredith Kercher is gone forever.
12/07/09
Having spent 8 years in Germany, I assure you I understand the error in applying an American standard to a foreign country. That being said, as I understand it, the prosecutor is being investigated for numerous violations of the Italian legal process. This would suggest that the manner in which he has handled cases is not appropriate for Italy either.
Finally, if you are going to post an excerpt of something she said, and use it to make assumptions, than perhaps you should be educated on where it came from and how it was obtained. Just saying.
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Just move on.
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I'm just confused how the standard of proof you are mentioning jives with this:
The Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms of the Council of Europe says (art. 6.2): "Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law". This convention has been adopted by treaty and is binding on all Council of Europe members. Currently every country member of the European Union is also member to the Council of Europe, so this stands for EU members as a matter of course. Nevertheless, this assertion is iterated verbatim in Article 48 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.
12/07/09
I was also a psych major and do recall that sociopaths are often hyper-sexual beings...doesn't mean that everyone that likes sex or has a lot of it is a sociopath, but like you I acknowledge it as a factor. Haven't seen the transcripts, so I have no idea if Knox is alleged to be a sociopath but it certainly isn't 'unfair' to consider all elements of a potential disorder.
Also, while there are many instances where sexual history should not be on trial, if elements of the crime relate back to someone's sexual past, their history could well be properly before the court. Typically it's vctims who are unfairly critiqued for their sexual behavior, but as a perpatrator accused of sexual sadism, Knox's sexual behavior could (can't say for sure) be related to motive, means, propensity, etc. which would make it relevant. It is not necessarily unfair or 'bad' to have this evidence presented at trial.
12/07/09
K thnx.
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Gotta do my part, you know.
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12/07/09
Every time I walk by past C Street, I want to go and throw eggs at the C Street house and anyone that walks out the door.
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That made me laugh out loud.
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And, as much as I think Knox got the short end of a shit trial, there's no WAY I care enough about it to boycot Italian food. I mean, have these people HAD zabaglione?
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Plus...mmm, pasta.
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I guess they know how damaging such boycotts can be in the wake of Hillsborough.
(Go Google if you don't know what I'm talking about.)
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At no point did I ever have the faintest desire to kill her. She may have wanted to do me in, but that was mostly because I was bad at doing the dishes.
12/07/09
I have known a lot of people who have had a hell of a lot of casual sex with a hell of a lot of other people, often with more than one at a time. Many times, booze and drugs were involved, some times even toys. To my knowledge, not one of them ever murdered someone else.
Now that I think about it, I have actually known in passing a few murderers in my time. But they all, without exception, did it for money or some misplaced sense of honor, and I'm pretty sure their respective sexual experiences would have done nothing to change that.
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12/07/09
I found it oddly reasuring: better then just 12 jury members, I would say!
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12/07/09
Maybe it doesn't help that the only course I took in lawschool in America (exchange student) that had the subject of a jury in it, was a course on capital punishment. That might have made me even more scared!
But to each their own!
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12/07/09
I think people pay too much attention to the image Amanda has received, even if they are arguing against it, it still adds fuel to the fire.
We need to redirect our discourse and discuss the flaws in the justice system, instead of focusing on the flaws of the Italian media.
But a quick anecdote while I'm on the subject of Italian media. This past summer I was a climate change analyst for a thnk tank and I attended the G8 Summit in L'Aquila. I had unrestricted access to all press conferences and during Berlusconi's press conference, he ended by saying that we (the international observers) should not listen to the Italian media because they have a personal vendetta against Berlusconi and report nothing but lies. One journalist raised his hand and answered, "But President, with all due respect, you own the majority of Italy's newspapers and media."
He laughed and left.
12/07/09