If you would like to read a fairly objective article on the crime, Amanda Knox, and the whole cast of characters, please check out this one published in Radar in October 2008, quite awhile before the larger media outlets became involved.
It is what first got me hooked on the story and have been following it ever since. This article explains the evidence of the case and the actions of the all the players just before and just after the crime. It is a compelling read.....
@MagentaAstyoche: That Mignini must have The Stranger dog eared somewhere. Thank you so much for posting the link. This was the comprehensive article I have been waiting for.
It's true: all the slutty girls I know have gone on to have meaningless lives punctuated by random, senseless, brutal murders. Correlation and causation, people. Stop being such a slut.
....honestly, what thoughts are in people's heads that this is a rational process? Do we still think that to have unmarried sex is to corrupt your moral fibre/uterus? What about guys who have a lot of sex? Do they also end up killing people too?
Some of Amanda's friends were on GMA this morning, and one of them made a really great point about how much of her trial was based on slut-shaming (she didn't use that exact term, but that's what she meant). I won't even get into how insipid Ann Curry's response was.
@thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe.: That's part of what really bothers me about this case. So little was based on actual facts, and the facts that have been presented are extremely circumstantial. If they had evidence backing up their claims about Amanda Knox, why was the trial so focused on her character and sexuality?
Obviously, Americans who want to boycott Italian food over this trial are being reactionary douchebags.
Amanda Knox didn't get a fair trial, though. The only thing the prosecution had on her and her boyfriend were inconsistent stories about where they were on the night of the murder. That's enough to charge them with obstructing justice or being accessories after the fact or some [edit: lesser crime], but there's a massive logical and evidentiary gap between that and charging them with rape and murder.
The authorities treated them in ways that maximized the chances of inconsistent statements. Knox was interrogated for hours without the benefit of counsel. She alleges the police beat her in custody. So, that explains at least some of the inconsistencies in her story. Add to that the fact that she and her boyfriend were, by their own admission, stoned out of their minds on the night in question--so it's not hard to believe that they might not remember.
It's a logical fallacy to assume the only reason someone might lie about their alibi is because they're the murderer.
I might be more inclined to care about their inconsistent stories if the prosecution gave us a plausible motive. This whole orgy hypothesis is a figment of the prosecutor's lurid imagination. Nobody testified about any kind of sex game. There was no physical evidence of any kind of ritual.
There's ironclad forensic evidence tying Rudy Gerde to the rape and murder of Meredith Kercher. There's nothing to suggest that Knox or her boyfriend had ever been in Kercher's room, let alone that they were present during the attack. The DNA of Knox's boyfriend and five other unrelated people were found on the bra clasp after it sat on the floor for 6 weeks in the dust (which is mostly shed human skin cells, so it's hardly far-fetched to think it might have been cross-contaminated).
People get unfair trials in the United States all the damn time.
Not to say that Amanda Knox shouldn't have had a fair trial (of course she should have, and her sex life shouldn't have been treated like damning evidence), but really? Boycotting all things Italian because they convicted an American woman of a crime? There was still evidence against her, and, her ITALIAN boyfriend was also convicted of the same crime, so that leads me to think, at the very least, that this wasn't some grand scheme on the part of the Italians to lock up a sweet innocent American girl.
Methinks that people care less about the fact that it was clearly a mistrial, than they do about the fact that she's a pretty, blonde, American woman.
@onestrawplz: I think it's legitimate news. It's not too common for Americans to be charged and tried for serious crimes overseas. And while there was evidence against her, the Italians did a horrible job of keeping the trial from becoming political show trial.
@Vermontboy: I agree that the trial was a circus from the start, 100%. But, I just wish people showed this same amount of concern over the injustices that occur within our own country as well. I'm not saying they have to be mutually exclusive, either. I think it's very valid to be concerned over the fact that her trial was, in fact, very unfair, but it also seems like a big sham, and frankly just seems fishy when people get outraged over this and not over the prejudices and injustices within our own system (and by "our own" I mean American...I assume you're American because of your username, but correct me if I am wrong).
Also, I don't think it's fair to use the conviction as proof of anti-Americanism in Italy (not directed at you, just in general). I'm currently in Italy, but from what my dad tells me and from what I've read, people are going nuts in the States right now because they think the conviction was just the result of some deeply ingrained anti-Americanism in Europe (which I don't think is the case, at least in my experience...most Italians I've encountered are flattered by my attempts to speak to them in their language, and they're all fascinated by and want to hear all about New York City. Even in the midst of Amanda Knox, I haven't really encountered much hate simply for being an American who is living abroad).
I think the important thing for us to extract from this case, in terms of traveling abroad, is that it's vital to demand to see someone from the US consulate if you ever fall upon unfortunate circumstances like Amanda's. It's not her fault that the trial played out like it did because she probably either didn't know to do this, or she was under too much duress and it slipped her mind. But, I think if she had sought out help before talking to the police, maybe the trial wouldn't have played out as it had. I've said this a million times on the other threads about Amanda Knox, but it deserves plenty of repetition.
@onestrawplz: Thank you! I came on today to say exactly that. There are people wrongfully convicted everyday, yet their cases are ignored because they are not upper middle class, attractive, and for the most part, white.
However you feel about the trial, beating your chest about the awfulness of slut shamming while doing nothing to address the inadequacy of our own judicial system is just empty theatrics.
I know this is cold, but I honestly couldn't care less about her. As a black woman, I'm more worried about being arrested in the US for a crime I didn't commit than Italy. FYI, I was arrested three years ago for trespassing, in MY OWN BUILDING! I was handcuffed, fingerprinted, and chained to a radiator until they found a empty cell for me. One cop even asked for my number. And I had to go to court, all because I took pictures from my roof. The judge laughed and threw out the case because he knew it was bullshit, but I still had to take a day off work. My brother and his friends are constantly harassed and they aren't even allowed to sit on the benches around his home because he could be charged with loitering.
So Amanda Knox, couldn't fucking careless. I'll focuse my energy on more pressing matters
@Mina_da_mad_child: Oh my god, I'm so sorry that happened to you...it's absolutely sickening. I'm glad the judge threw it out in the end, but you should've never had to go through that in the first place.
This is the only place where I can express my opinion about the American justice system without being flamed; anywhere else I'd be accused of hating America or somesuch nonsense.
@onestrawplz: Yeah, I agree with you. I suppose I have a sort of tilted perspective. I'm a public defender, so I get paid, 8 hrs+ per day, to be outraged at injustice. And I spend 8+hours every day surrounded by people who are just as outraged by injustice. In fact, we sort of compete to see who can be the most outraged. Seriously (sort of)...
All I'm saying is that even in the small universe of people who are totally and completely dedicated to protecting Americans from unjust and unfair prosecution, we still find time to be flabbergasted by the Knox trial and what a zoo it turned into. And yeah, she's a poster child for my "talk to a fucking lawyer" rant.
Here's the thing, she changed her story a thousand times. She was in the house, she wasn't in the house. She heard screams, she never heard screams. She actually pointed the finger at a totally innocent man and claimed he did it, when she knew that he did not. Quite frankly, her sexuality, her lack of crying after the death...none of that had any effect on how I viewed this case. I know that innocent people confess (indeed, I've worked for the Innocence Project), but she has changed her story too many times and too drastically.
A few months ago Dateline or one of those shows did a story about her and they spoke about how she writes in her diary that she forgives her ex for turning on her, calling him a "silly boy" and saying that she'd take him back in the end. It sounded to me like a classic sociopath. Now, I know a few sociopaths and most of them are pretty sexually-charged, but again, that's not what I think makes her guilty.
@JinxyMcDeath: In regards to accusing an innocent man, my understanding is that the police asked her to make guesses about who the murderer could have been, and suggested it was a black person. I honestly don't know much about the other parts of her story that changed, but I do think that's significant.
@JinxyMcDeath: You know what's funny - - - so many of those things (the inappropriate cartwheels, the loud awkward talking, singing in the hallways) are EXACTLY like two girls I went to high school with. They're not sociopaths, they're socially awkward - - and I really think she is too. I think she's really pretty, so people are assuming she just can't be awkward, but after reading the Vanity Fair article about her, I was like, "Karen from HS could TOTALLY be framed for murder." People are just sometimes weird. Doesn't make them murderers.
@NellMood: And, at the time, she was totally non-fluent in Italian. Hypothetical verb tenses are hard enough to comprehend in a foreign language, much less to actually conjugate in the hypothetical yourself.
@NellMood: That is her interpretation of events, but if that's how it "started" she certainly created an entire story surrounding that:
In one of her earlier statements to the police, Knox implicated Patrick Diya Lumumba (the owner of the bar she worked part time) in the murder, saying:[22]
"I don't remember if my friend Meredith was already there or whether she came later. What I can say is that the two of them (Meredith and Patrick) went off together... Patrick and Meredith went off together into Meredith's room while I think I stayed in the kitchen. I can't remember how long they were in the bedroom together, I can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming and I was so frightened I put my fingers in my ears. I don't remember anything after that, my head is really confused. I don’t remember if Meredith called out or if I heard thuds because I was upset, but I can imagine what was happening...I'm not sure whether Raffaele was there too that evening but I do remember waking up at his house in his bed and that in the morning I went back to where I lived, where I found the door open."
That doesn't sound like her hypothesizing if a black guy killed her. It sounds like she was squarely implicating Patrick.
@CremeBruDont: Right. I mean, I don't know whether she's guilty or innocent, obviously, but this interrogation doesn't exactly seem fair. Didn't they also tell her she had HIV at one point?
@JinxyMcDeath: People change their stories all the time. If it weren't for the 4th 5th and 6th amendment protections that we have in the US (but which do not exist in Italy), I could get inconsistent stories out of anyone. And I'm just a PD. Cops who are trained to get what they want can nearly always do it. If the cops want inconsistent stories, they'll get inconsistent stories.
@NellMood: her entire interrogation was done in Italian on both sides, everything you read in English is a translation. I studied Italian for 4 years in high school and I'd bet dollars to donuts I couldn't get my way through an interrogation.
@JinxyMcDeath: Is this a translation? Who provided it? Was it in English or Italian? Did the police release it? And most importantly did she have a lawyer at the time?
Look, I don't care who she implicated, she could implicate the Pope. What I do care is that she was not give a fair trial. Full stop. That is not OK.
@JinxyMcDeath: Knox sent a text (or left some sort of message) to Patrick, her boss, that was, "I'll see you later." According to Knox (Yes, I know), the police used that to say that he was involved and she better cop to it and say so.
What adds credibility to her statement is that before Guede was suspected, when they only had Amanda, Meredith, and Patrick in custody, the Italian police immediately claimed the case was closed. There was DNA all over the crime scene, Kercher's and Guede's, and yet they couldn't buy a clue by the time they had claimed they had solved the murder.
Also, regardless of her behavior, especially when being interiewed by police in a foreign country without a lawyer, they still have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was in that room when Kercher was murdered. They can't.
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I'm not here to prove the procecution's case. I'm saying that as an attorney who has seen a 1,000 Datelines on this and read a few articles, this is my opinion.What you have to realize is that the World does not have to apply American standards of justice to their legal processes. Just because they don't have the same legal standards as in America, doesn't mean it wasn't a fair trial. I happen to think it could have gone either way...guilty or innocent. The evidence was there on both ends. It wasn't a slamdunk on either side. Are you educated in law? Because usually cases aren't slamdrunks. Even in America.
@JinxyMcDeath: "Now, I know a few sociopaths and most of them are pretty sexually-charged..."
Wait, what? You know a few sociopaths? How do you know them? Are you a therapist or something? How do you know that they are sociopaths? Are you just guessing that they're sociopaths because of some of their traits?
And because "most" of the sociopaths you know are pretty sexually charged, you are somehow drawing a conclusion that Knox is a sociopath and sexually charged?
@waverly: As a criminal defense attorney, you tend to run into sociopaths. And you completely miscontrued my comment...which was that her being sexually-charged or whatever was irrelevant. But in my experience, the sociopaths I know are very sexual. Just move on. There's nothing to jump on me here about. I'm giving a personal observation based on experience. You don't have to respond with 10 question marked sentences. I'm not saying that sexual people are sociopaths or vice-versa. I'm just noting a pattern.
@JinxyMcDeath: Very well stated. I can't believe people think the fact she implicated an innocent black man means nothing. She was prepared to have this man spend 25/26/30 years in jail for something she knew he did not do. If as she claims, in her final version of the story, she was at her boyfriend then she was well aware he did not commit the crime. Is it now acceptable for a white person to accuse the first black person they can think of crimes they have been accused of themselves because they are 'confused' or 'stressed'?
At the end of the day, she will get her 2 appeals and probably be back in Seattle in under 2 years with the right pressure. Meredith Kercher is gone forever.
@JinxyMcDeath: No, I am not educated in law, and if you would like to pull the, "I'm a lawyer and my opinion means more than yours," trump card, please, be my guest.
Having spent 8 years in Germany, I assure you I understand the error in applying an American standard to a foreign country. That being said, as I understand it, the prosecutor is being investigated for numerous violations of the Italian legal process. This would suggest that the manner in which he has handled cases is not appropriate for Italy either.
Finally, if you are going to post an excerpt of something she said, and use it to make assumptions, than perhaps you should be educated on where it came from and how it was obtained. Just saying.
@JinxyMcDeath: Well you've brushed off my (in my opinion) quite reasonable questions about your experience with sociopaths in a quite brusque manner, and expect me to believe, full stop, your diagnosis of this person as a sociopath. Just to name a couple.
@CremeBruDont: Wow, ok I'll try again here, because I was truly trying to educate myself since there is little on the internet about Italian criminal law.
I'm just confused how the standard of proof you are mentioning jives with this:
The Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms of the Council of Europe says (art. 6.2): "Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law". This convention has been adopted by treaty and is binding on all Council of Europe members. Currently every country member of the European Union is also member to the Council of Europe, so this stands for EU members as a matter of course. Nevertheless, this assertion is iterated verbatim in Article 48 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.
@JinxyMcDeath: I totally agree with you. I'm a fifth year lawyer and all the sweeping generalizations about the 'unfairness' of this trial, the general confusion regarding legal standards between these two vastly different systems, and the cultural superiority on display is disturning.
I was also a psych major and do recall that sociopaths are often hyper-sexual beings...doesn't mean that everyone that likes sex or has a lot of it is a sociopath, but like you I acknowledge it as a factor. Haven't seen the transcripts, so I have no idea if Knox is alleged to be a sociopath but it certainly isn't 'unfair' to consider all elements of a potential disorder.
Also, while there are many instances where sexual history should not be on trial, if elements of the crime relate back to someone's sexual past, their history could well be properly before the court. Typically it's vctims who are unfairly critiqued for their sexual behavior, but as a perpatrator accused of sexual sadism, Knox's sexual behavior could (can't say for sure) be related to motive, means, propensity, etc. which would make it relevant. It is not necessarily unfair or 'bad' to have this evidence presented at trial.
@curiousgeorgiana: That's what I love about Jezzies. So selfless and civic minded. I myself volunteer to round up all the aged Parmesan, Montepulciano and Parma ham. It's the least I can do.
@PilgrimSoul: WHY DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND HOW FUCKED UP THE ITALIAN JUDICIAL SYSTEM IS????? THIS IS A TRAGEDY OF JUSTICE THAT WOULD NEVER BE PERPETRATED IN OUR OWN COURT SYSTEM!!!!!
You know, as a woman who has lived abroad, bringing home strange men is probably about the only way that you're gonna get laid in some foreign countries, so in that way, find all this sexual judgement really horrifying.
I was unaware that one-night stands and enjoying sex for sex's sake precluded me to be a killer. Shouldn't Dexter be getting laid more often?
And, as much as I think Knox got the short end of a shit trial, there's no WAY I care enough about it to boycot Italian food. I mean, have these people HAD zabaglione?
@likepenguins: Considering current circumstances, that might not be the best way to eliminate the idea that people who enjoy casual sex are prone to murder... ;)
@FADviral: The Sun isn't calling for a boycott, it just reported that some Americans were. The victim, Meredith Kercher, was British; most of our coverage here has focused on her.
@rah29: I'm British too but have clearly been slipping in and out of parallel universes every time I entered and left a newsagents, given your assertion that most coverage has focused on Kercher. I find that not to have been the case at all. Indeed, the Kercher aspect has only really taken off again after the outcome of the trial because her family have started talking, but Knox continues to grab the front pages. Indeed, she's on the front page of this morning's Sun. Kercher made page five.
@FADviral: I've hardly done a survey; that was just my impression and you're entirely free to disagree. I get most of my info from BBC news because it happens to be on all day while I work; they might have a different angle. In my experience they precede coverage of this with big pictures of Kercher, but as I said that's just my impression, and just one news outlet. Sorry if I generalised too much.
When I was in college, I had a roommate who was seriously considering becoming a nun. She was very uncomfortable around any expression of sexuality and got nervous if she heard cursing. She was also a super-nice, funny, and friendly person, odd as it might sound. That was right around the same time that yours truly was, uh, embarking on the Great Sex Tour of 1997 with a variety of parties. I didn't give her a lot of details, but I did let her know when I wouldn't be coming home on various nights. She was outwardly cool with it, but I could tell that she was a bit weirded out on some level.
At no point did I ever have the faintest desire to kill her. She may have wanted to do me in, but that was mostly because I was bad at doing the dishes.
Oh swell, we're back to free sex = total breakdown in societal mores. Don't sleep around, girls, you might end up murdering someone when your mores suddenly break down.
I have known a lot of people who have had a hell of a lot of casual sex with a hell of a lot of other people, often with more than one at a time. Many times, booze and drugs were involved, some times even toys. To my knowledge, not one of them ever murdered someone else.
Now that I think about it, I have actually known in passing a few murderers in my time. But they all, without exception, did it for money or some misplaced sense of honor, and I'm pretty sure their respective sexual experiences would have done nothing to change that.
I sorta believed she was guilty at first but spending some time with my lawyer dad, listening to him talk about the case, changed my mind. He's livid about this case. He said it's a travesty, that justice was most definitely not served and if a prosecutor in the US had tried the tactics the Italians used, the case would have been thrown out or declared a mistrial. Also, two judges that sat in with the six jury members? Please, this entire case was a disgusting mess. And while I don't think boycotting Italian food will do a damn thing, I'd at least hope that someone would try to free her.
@EkaterinaBallerina: Isn't the two judges/6 'normal' people just the way it works in Italy?
I found it oddly reasuring: better then just 12 jury members, I would say!
@Truely-marvelous: Uh no, I'd be out of my mind if that's who was up to judging me. Because I highly doubt those jury members had any say in her verdict. Also, jury members here are heavily vetted. They did nothing of the sort in Italy, they just picked a few people and threw them in with two judges.
@EkaterinaBallerina: I think this just depends on where you are from... I come from a country without a jury whatsoever, and the thought of a jury really freaks me out.
Maybe it doesn't help that the only course I took in lawschool in America (exchange student) that had the subject of a jury in it, was a course on capital punishment. That might have made me even more scared!
@EkaterinaBallerina: To be fair, she wasn't tried in the US, she was tried in Italy. The trial was a circus, and deeply problematic, but perfectly acceptable by Italian standards. Before anybody yells at me for being too relativist, Italy's legal system is far from ideal--there's a lot of corruption--but it's not so outrageous, by international standards, that Americans should be boycotting Italy as a result. Most of us on this side of the pond think America's use of the death penatly is a barbaric breach of human rights, but I respect that it's the American system and I wouldn't stop going to the US because of it.
@EkaterinaBallerina: you dad = my hero. Completely agree with what you said.
I think people pay too much attention to the image Amanda has received, even if they are arguing against it, it still adds fuel to the fire.
We need to redirect our discourse and discuss the flaws in the justice system, instead of focusing on the flaws of the Italian media.
But a quick anecdote while I'm on the subject of Italian media. This past summer I was a climate change analyst for a thnk tank and I attended the G8 Summit in L'Aquila. I had unrestricted access to all press conferences and during Berlusconi's press conference, he ended by saying that we (the international observers) should not listen to the Italian media because they have a personal vendetta against Berlusconi and report nothing but lies. One journalist raised his hand and answered, "But President, with all due respect, you own the majority of Italy's newspapers and media."
@EkaterinaBallerina: I think the fact that the Judges sat in is not nearly as bad as the fact that the jury was not sequestered. With all the insane media coverage of that how are you not going to be influenced?
12/07/09
It is what first got me hooked on the story and have been following it ever since. This article explains the evidence of the case and the actions of the all the players just before and just after the crime. It is a compelling read.....
[www.friendsofamanda.org]
12/07/09
12/07/09
....honestly, what thoughts are in people's heads that this is a rational process? Do we still think that to have unmarried sex is to corrupt your moral fibre/uterus? What about guys who have a lot of sex? Do they also end up killing people too?
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
Amanda Knox didn't get a fair trial, though. The only thing the prosecution had on her and her boyfriend were inconsistent stories about where they were on the night of the murder. That's enough to charge them with obstructing justice or being accessories after the fact or some [edit: lesser crime], but there's a massive logical and evidentiary gap between that and charging them with rape and murder.
The authorities treated them in ways that maximized the chances of inconsistent statements. Knox was interrogated for hours without the benefit of counsel. She alleges the police beat her in custody. So, that explains at least some of the inconsistencies in her story. Add to that the fact that she and her boyfriend were, by their own admission, stoned out of their minds on the night in question--so it's not hard to believe that they might not remember.
It's a logical fallacy to assume the only reason someone might lie about their alibi is because they're the murderer.
I might be more inclined to care about their inconsistent stories if the prosecution gave us a plausible motive. This whole orgy hypothesis is a figment of the prosecutor's lurid imagination. Nobody testified about any kind of sex game. There was no physical evidence of any kind of ritual.
There's ironclad forensic evidence tying Rudy Gerde to the rape and murder of Meredith Kercher. There's nothing to suggest that Knox or her boyfriend had ever been in Kercher's room, let alone that they were present during the attack. The DNA of Knox's boyfriend and five other unrelated people were found on the bra clasp after it sat on the floor for 6 weeks in the dust (which is mostly shed human skin cells, so it's hardly far-fetched to think it might have been cross-contaminated).
12/07/09
Not to say that Amanda Knox shouldn't have had a fair trial (of course she should have, and her sex life shouldn't have been treated like damning evidence), but really? Boycotting all things Italian because they convicted an American woman of a crime? There was still evidence against her, and, her ITALIAN boyfriend was also convicted of the same crime, so that leads me to think, at the very least, that this wasn't some grand scheme on the part of the Italians to lock up a sweet innocent American girl.
Methinks that people care less about the fact that it was clearly a mistrial, than they do about the fact that she's a pretty, blonde, American woman.
12/07/09
12/07/09
Also, I don't think it's fair to use the conviction as proof of anti-Americanism in Italy (not directed at you, just in general). I'm currently in Italy, but from what my dad tells me and from what I've read, people are going nuts in the States right now because they think the conviction was just the result of some deeply ingrained anti-Americanism in Europe (which I don't think is the case, at least in my experience...most Italians I've encountered are flattered by my attempts to speak to them in their language, and they're all fascinated by and want to hear all about New York City. Even in the midst of Amanda Knox, I haven't really encountered much hate simply for being an American who is living abroad).
I think the important thing for us to extract from this case, in terms of traveling abroad, is that it's vital to demand to see someone from the US consulate if you ever fall upon unfortunate circumstances like Amanda's. It's not her fault that the trial played out like it did because she probably either didn't know to do this, or she was under too much duress and it slipped her mind. But, I think if she had sought out help before talking to the police, maybe the trial wouldn't have played out as it had. I've said this a million times on the other threads about Amanda Knox, but it deserves plenty of repetition.
12/07/09
Dang, maybe I'll boycott America.
12/07/09
However you feel about the trial, beating your chest about the awfulness of slut shamming while doing nothing to address the inadequacy of our own judicial system is just empty theatrics.
I know this is cold, but I honestly couldn't care less about her. As a black woman, I'm more worried about being arrested in the US for a crime I didn't commit than Italy. FYI, I was arrested three years ago for trespassing, in MY OWN BUILDING! I was handcuffed, fingerprinted, and chained to a radiator until they found a empty cell for me. One cop even asked for my number. And I had to go to court, all because I took pictures from my roof. The judge laughed and threw out the case because he knew it was bullshit, but I still had to take a day off work. My brother and his friends are constantly harassed and they aren't even allowed to sit on the benches around his home because he could be charged with loitering.
So Amanda Knox, couldn't fucking careless. I'll focuse my energy on more pressing matters
12/07/09
12/07/09
This is the only place where I can express my opinion about the American justice system without being flamed; anywhere else I'd be accused of hating America or somesuch nonsense.
12/07/09
All I'm saying is that even in the small universe of people who are totally and completely dedicated to protecting Americans from unjust and unfair prosecution, we still find time to be flabbergasted by the Knox trial and what a zoo it turned into. And yeah, she's a poster child for my "talk to a fucking lawyer" rant.
12/07/09
A few months ago Dateline or one of those shows did a story about her and they spoke about how she writes in her diary that she forgives her ex for turning on her, calling him a "silly boy" and saying that she'd take him back in the end. It sounded to me like a classic sociopath. Now, I know a few sociopaths and most of them are pretty sexually-charged, but again, that's not what I think makes her guilty.
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
In one of her earlier statements to the police, Knox implicated Patrick Diya Lumumba (the owner of the bar she worked part time) in the murder, saying:[22]
"I don't remember if my friend Meredith was already there or whether she came later. What I can say is that the two of them (Meredith and Patrick) went off together... Patrick and Meredith went off together into Meredith's room while I think I stayed in the kitchen. I can't remember how long they were in the bedroom together, I can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming and I was so frightened I put my fingers in my ears. I don't remember anything after that, my head is really confused. I don’t remember if Meredith called out or if I heard thuds because I was upset, but I can imagine what was happening...I'm not sure whether Raffaele was there too that evening but I do remember waking up at his house in his bed and that in the morning I went back to where I lived, where I found the door open."
That doesn't sound like her hypothesizing if a black guy killed her. It sounds like she was squarely implicating Patrick.
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
Look, I don't care who she implicated, she could implicate the Pope. What I do care is that she was not give a fair trial. Full stop. That is not OK.
12/07/09
What adds credibility to her statement is that before Guede was suspected, when they only had Amanda, Meredith, and Patrick in custody, the Italian police immediately claimed the case was closed. There was DNA all over the crime scene, Kercher's and Guede's, and yet they couldn't buy a clue by the time they had claimed they had solved the murder.
Also, regardless of her behavior, especially when being interiewed by police in a foreign country without a lawyer, they still have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was in that room when Kercher was murdered. They can't.
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
Wait, what? You know a few sociopaths? How do you know them? Are you a therapist or something? How do you know that they are sociopaths? Are you just guessing that they're sociopaths because of some of their traits?
And because "most" of the sociopaths you know are pretty sexually charged, you are somehow drawing a conclusion that Knox is a sociopath and sexually charged?
Very odd.
12/07/09
12/07/09
At the end of the day, she will get her 2 appeals and probably be back in Seattle in under 2 years with the right pressure. Meredith Kercher is gone forever.
12/07/09
Having spent 8 years in Germany, I assure you I understand the error in applying an American standard to a foreign country. That being said, as I understand it, the prosecutor is being investigated for numerous violations of the Italian legal process. This would suggest that the manner in which he has handled cases is not appropriate for Italy either.
Finally, if you are going to post an excerpt of something she said, and use it to make assumptions, than perhaps you should be educated on where it came from and how it was obtained. Just saying.
12/07/09
12/07/09
Just move on.
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
I'm just confused how the standard of proof you are mentioning jives with this:
The Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms of the Council of Europe says (art. 6.2): "Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law". This convention has been adopted by treaty and is binding on all Council of Europe members. Currently every country member of the European Union is also member to the Council of Europe, so this stands for EU members as a matter of course. Nevertheless, this assertion is iterated verbatim in Article 48 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.
12/07/09
I was also a psych major and do recall that sociopaths are often hyper-sexual beings...doesn't mean that everyone that likes sex or has a lot of it is a sociopath, but like you I acknowledge it as a factor. Haven't seen the transcripts, so I have no idea if Knox is alleged to be a sociopath but it certainly isn't 'unfair' to consider all elements of a potential disorder.
Also, while there are many instances where sexual history should not be on trial, if elements of the crime relate back to someone's sexual past, their history could well be properly before the court. Typically it's vctims who are unfairly critiqued for their sexual behavior, but as a perpatrator accused of sexual sadism, Knox's sexual behavior could (can't say for sure) be related to motive, means, propensity, etc. which would make it relevant. It is not necessarily unfair or 'bad' to have this evidence presented at trial.
12/07/09
K thnx.
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
Gotta do my part, you know.
12/07/09
12/07/09
Every time I walk by past C Street, I want to go and throw eggs at the C Street house and anyone that walks out the door.
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
That made me laugh out loud.
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
And, as much as I think Knox got the short end of a shit trial, there's no WAY I care enough about it to boycot Italian food. I mean, have these people HAD zabaglione?
12/07/09
12/07/09
Plus...mmm, pasta.
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
I guess they know how damaging such boycotts can be in the wake of Hillsborough.
(Go Google if you don't know what I'm talking about.)
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
12/07/09
At no point did I ever have the faintest desire to kill her. She may have wanted to do me in, but that was mostly because I was bad at doing the dishes.
12/07/09
I have known a lot of people who have had a hell of a lot of casual sex with a hell of a lot of other people, often with more than one at a time. Many times, booze and drugs were involved, some times even toys. To my knowledge, not one of them ever murdered someone else.
Now that I think about it, I have actually known in passing a few murderers in my time. But they all, without exception, did it for money or some misplaced sense of honor, and I'm pretty sure their respective sexual experiences would have done nothing to change that.
12/07/09
12/07/09
I found it oddly reasuring: better then just 12 jury members, I would say!
12/07/09
12/07/09
Maybe it doesn't help that the only course I took in lawschool in America (exchange student) that had the subject of a jury in it, was a course on capital punishment. That might have made me even more scared!
But to each their own!
12/07/09
12/07/09
I think people pay too much attention to the image Amanda has received, even if they are arguing against it, it still adds fuel to the fire.
We need to redirect our discourse and discuss the flaws in the justice system, instead of focusing on the flaws of the Italian media.
But a quick anecdote while I'm on the subject of Italian media. This past summer I was a climate change analyst for a thnk tank and I attended the G8 Summit in L'Aquila. I had unrestricted access to all press conferences and during Berlusconi's press conference, he ended by saying that we (the international observers) should not listen to the Italian media because they have a personal vendetta against Berlusconi and report nothing but lies. One journalist raised his hand and answered, "But President, with all due respect, you own the majority of Italy's newspapers and media."
He laughed and left.
12/07/09