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New York, 2:44 AM
Sat Dec 19
73 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of Zulkey Zulkey
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    obviously, it's racist towards white people. black don't crack!
     Reply
    Zulkey was starred Zulkey was unstarred
    Image of Lysergic Asset Lysergic Asset
    12/17/09

    @Zulkey: I think this is funny, even though I am probably going to get screamed at very soon here.
     Reply
    Lysergic Asset was starred Lysergic Asset was unstarred
    Image of Zulkey Zulkey
    12/17/09

    @Lysergic Asset: I know, I was too bemused by myself to resist. I absolve you.
     Reply
    Zulkey was starred Zulkey was unstarred
    Image of Lysergic Asset Lysergic Asset
    12/17/09

    @Zulkey: I feel better already.
     Reply
    Lysergic Asset was starred Lysergic Asset was unstarred
    Image of LaFemme LaFemme
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    I don't have a problem with this tax, but I don't get why everyone is saying cosmetic procedures, or the tax on them, is only going to hit the upper classes. Do you think all the girls with boob jobs on Rock of Love or some other MTV/VHI reality show were able to afford them due to their upper class backgrounds? Do you think the admin assistants on plastic surgery forums (like on Makeup Alley, or Doctor's websites) are all married to millionaires? Definitely not.

    Plastic surgery and botox has become relatively affordable. Doctor's have payment plans, so you can pay off your procedures over the course of years. The American public is not generally freaked out about the idea of carrying a credit card balance- why wouldn't you just throw down your card for this? Millions of people do. Even if you were going to pay out of pocket. 500 dollars X 2times a year= 1000 dollars/12 months= 83 dollars a month. A good number of middle class people have 83 dollars a month to spend on this if it is a priority.
     Reply
    LaFemme was starred LaFemme was unstarred
    Image of PhillyLass PhillyLass
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    Dear Dr. Plastic,
    You need to recalibrate your understanding of middle class. No middle class people I know are getting a toxin injected into themselves for cosmetic purposes. File this tax under "rich people problems."
     Reply
    PhillyLass was starred PhillyLass was unstarred
    Image of SharonTaint SharonTaint
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    Tax it, I say.

    No amount of argument could convince me that it's a medical, life-saving necessity.
     Reply
    SharonTaint was starred SharonTaint was unstarred
    Image of Elle O. Elle Elle O. Elle
    12/17/09

    @SharonTaint: It may not be life saving, but neither is reconstructive surgery for someone who's had a mastectomy. For some people with migraines Botox may be the only thing that helps them live a normal life.

    Although someone mentioned downthread that it's a tax on the procedure, and not the poison itself, so it wouldn't be taxed for someone who needs it for a geniune medical reason. Which, if that's the case, maked the whole medical arguement moot.
     Reply
    SharonTaint promoted this comment Elle O. Elle was starred Elle O. Elle was unstarred
    Image of SharonTaint SharonTaint
    12/17/09

    @Elle O. Elle: I totally understand, except there are a lot of drugs on the market for migraine sufferers (and I am one of them) so to me it's a little disingenuous to get Botox for a migraine.

    I just with people would be upfront about their vanity. There's nothing wrong with wanting to feel better about your appearance.

    But you can't bullshit a bullshitter, as it were.
     Reply
    SharonTaint was starred SharonTaint was unstarred
    Image of Elle O. Elle Elle O. Elle
    12/17/09

    @SharonTaint: I sort of am, I had them at least once a week when I went through puberty, and if I'm around a trigger I'll still have them, so I wouldn't need some as drastic as Botox. Even if I did I wouldn't choose to go that route, needles scare me so much that I had a panic attack outside a tattoo parlor once, no needles for me unless it's necessary, and even then I ain't goin' down easy.

    But everybody is different, some people will respond well to the first medicine they try, some have to try a few to find the right fit, and for some people the usual methods just won't work, so they have to try something a bit more extreme. I don't doubt that there are people out there who don't get relief from traditional migraine meds. I also don't doubt that there are more people using it for that reason than genuinely need it.

    But for the ones using it purely for vanity, I say tax the shit out of it.

    PS - Jeez, the end of my last reply is atrocious, I was heading out the door to grab lunch when I wrote that last bit, I swear.
     Reply
    Elle O. Elle was starred Elle O. Elle was unstarred
    Image of Catabolic Catabolic
    12/17/09

    @SharonTaint: Cosmetic surgery is a medical, life-saving necessity for most trans people. This is not a tax on just Botox but 'elective' surgeries as well, as far as I know.
     Reply
    SharonTaint promoted this comment Edited by Catabolic at 12/17/09 3:06 PM Catabolic was starred Catabolic was unstarred
    Image of SharonTaint SharonTaint
    12/17/09

    @Catabolic: I am not very well versed in the plight of transgendered people so I apologize if I sound callous but how is getting gender reassignment surgery life-saving? In the literal sense, that is.

    As opposed to, say, a kidney transplant?

    Isn't it still cosmetic? Or is the understanding that this type of situation yields psychological issues that therefore make it life-saving?
     Reply
    SharonTaint was starred SharonTaint was unstarred
    Image of Catabolic Catabolic
    12/18/09

    @SharonTaint: It's sex reassignment, not gender reassignment - the physical sex is reassigned to align with the person's gender identity.

    Yes, I am referring to the psychological issues here, and obviously not being able to access sex reassignment surgery won't kill anyone directly. So, yes, technically it's cosmetic, and also elective in the same way some heart surgeries are - these surgeries markedly improve the quality of life of the patient but are not still elective.

    These may not be emergency surgery like an appendectomy but they're still as life-saving as other technically non-life-saving, elective procedures such as angioplasties or hysterectomies.
     Reply
    Catabolic was starred Catabolic was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    I had severe nodular acne from age 9-19, when I finally got Accutane. As a result, I have major rolling and icepick scars over most of my face. Makeup does not do a lot to hide them, unless I go full-on theater latex fill.

    I also have a 2 1/2" scar on my jaw from landing on a can lid when I was 9. It used to be 5" long until I had it reduced when I was 15, as per my mom's nagging.

    As the result of major stress in my 20s, I have huge glabellar (frown) lines between my eyebrows. We're talking Grand Canyon-sized valleys. Botox alone would not do jack for them. I would need some sort of filler to get rid of them entirely.

    Courtesy of impacted wisdom teeth that came out a couple of years later than they should have and lousy orthodontics in childhood, I have three crooked teeth (premolar, canine, and incisor) on the left side of my upper jaw. Short of oral surgery, there's not much to be done for them at this point in my life.

    Here's the kicker: the fourth item on that list is the only one that actually has a physical impact. None of the teeth on the left side of my mouth touch, at all. It's resulting in uneven wear patterns on my other teeth, and will probably result in major dental problems later in life.

    Guess which one I get the most pressure to have corrected, by family and random strangers? Yep, the frown lines.

    As far as I'm concerned, the tax on Botox for purely cosmetic procedures might go a long way towards realigning our health priorities. My teeth are a genuine problem. My scars and normal signs of aging are not. (None of them can be paid for by insurance, either.)
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of redqueenmeg redqueenmeg
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    I dated a Brit once who said that rates there of circumcision of infant males dropped precipitously after the NHS stopped covering the procedure.

    If this tax actually were a large amount we might see plastic surgery becoming less of an "expectation."

    It's possible, anyway.
     Reply
    redqueenmeg was starred redqueenmeg was unstarred
    Image of SweetIo SweetIo
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    For those commentators who are concerned about this taxing people who are getting reconstructive surgery after cancer or cleft palate surgery or something, the tax would not apply to those. (Although, yes, you can then start arguing about things that fall close to the line about being necessary. Like a nose job to help you breathe better.)
     Reply
    SweetIo was starred SweetIo was unstarred
    Image of morninggloria morninggloria
    12/17/09

    @SweetIo: Funny you'd mention that. I have a friend from college who works for a government agency who was able to have her father (a doctor) declare that she had a "deviated septum" so that her nose job could be covered by government insurance.
     Reply
    morninggloria was starred morninggloria was unstarred
    Image of redqueenmeg redqueenmeg
    12/17/09

    @morninggloria: Hah, I had a deviated septum (for reals) and my sis said I should use it as an excuse to get a nose job as well. But I kind of like that I look like a falcon, so I just got the problem fixed.
     Reply
    redqueenmeg was starred redqueenmeg was unstarred
    Image of Ms Meghan Ms Meghan
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    I'm pretty sure middle class women cannot afford to regularly get botox.
     Reply
    Ms Meghan was starred Ms Meghan was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    12/17/09

    @Ms Meghan: I certainly can't. It would be $400-$500 every three months, as per the quote I got in a moment of weakness. $2K a year is not something I can afford to spend on anything that doesn't feed me, clothe me, put a roof over my head, or enable me to get to work.
     Reply
    Edited by la.donna.pietra at 12/17/09 11:07 AM la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of lavendermint lavendermint
    12/17/09

    @Ms Meghan: I was about to say...I think they meant upper class women. Regular botox treatments would be a financial stretch for most women who really fall under "middle class." Although there does seem to be ambiguity in the distinction between the two nowadays...
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra promoted this comment Edited by lavendermint at 12/17/09 11:13 AM lavendermint was starred lavendermint was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    12/17/09

    @lavendermint: Blame Reagan for that ambiguity. He gave a speech 25 years ago claiming that "we're all middle-class now." Bullshit.
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of jessicarabbit jessicarabbit
    12/17/09

    @la.donna.pietra: True, unless you calculate how much you spend a year on makeup and salon visits and decide you want to cut back on those. I decided to do everything myself and spend less than $200 a year on makeup, and then the $900 a year on botox doesn't seem so bad (mine is $300 a pop, and I go every 4 months instead of 3).
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra promoted this comment jessicarabbit was starred jessicarabbit was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    12/17/09

    @jessicarabbit: Since I spend $42 four times a year to get my hair cut and don't wear a lot of makeup, there isn't a whole lot in my "appearance" budget to reallocate.

    (I agree, though, that it makes sense to prioritize and budget from there.)
     Reply
    Edited by la.donna.pietra at 12/17/09 11:35 AM la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of LaFemme LaFemme
    12/17/09

    @Ms Meghan: I don't know. Go on MakeupAlley. There are lots of women who have like, 15k makeup collections and others who spend quite a bit on procedures. Now obviously people don't put how much they make and you never really know, but from other descriptors (their profession, pics of houses, etc) I would say a bunch of middle class women ARE spending this cash.

    Plus, lots of people don't blink about putting 50k on their credit cards so really, anyone could "afford" to Botox themselves every 4-6 months.
     Reply
    LaFemme was starred LaFemme was unstarred
    Image of Rare Affinity Rare Affinity
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    In the UK tampons attract tax and it took years of campaigning for the Government to bring it down from 17.5 to 5%, so quite frankly I have no sympathy for people complaining that they will now have to pay 5% tax on botox.
     Reply
    Rare Affinity was starred Rare Affinity was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    12/17/09

    @Rare Affinity: what the WHAT? Ok, THAT is ridiculous.
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of Rare Affinity Rare Affinity
    12/17/09

    @bluebears: Obviously tampons are a LUXURY item and we should be tearing up rags and washing them by hand just like our forebears did.
     Reply
    Rare Affinity was starred Rare Affinity was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    12/17/09

    @Rare Affinity: that is nuts. Could you buy them online and avoid the tax? Like from out of the country or something?
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of bookling bookling
    12/17/09

    @Rare Affinity: The 17.5 rate is super high, but are you upset that you have to pay the 5% still? Because in the US we still have to pay sales tax on tampons, which in my state is 6%. I never even thought about it.
     Reply
    bookling was starred bookling was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    12/17/09

    @bookling: I assumed this was in addition to sales tax.
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of Rare Affinity Rare Affinity
    12/17/09

    @bluebears: Postage and packing would probably mean there was little difference. The Government only brought down the taxon tampons to 5% to be in line with the rest of Europe. It reminds me of the great fight women had in the 19th and early 20th century to gettheir own public lavatories. Most men did not think it was appropriate to discuss such issues, which meant they would not implement the necessary changes. George Bernard Shaw campaigned hard to ensure that such facilities were provided for women. I don't think he would have felt quite the same fervour to abolish the 5% tax on botox.
     Reply
    Edited by Rare Affinity at 12/17/09 11:19 AM Rare Affinity was starred Rare Affinity was unstarred
    Image of Rare Affinity Rare Affinity
    12/17/09

    @bookling: Incontinent pads are zero rated I believe as is chocolate body paint! You can tell it is men making the rules!
     Reply
    Rare Affinity was starred Rare Affinity was unstarred
    Image of librariesare4lovers librariesare4lovers
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    Is cosmetic surgery categorized differently by insurance providers from reconstructive surgery? I've never had either but I'm just wondering since the general worry here seems to be that the people that need non-life saving surgery in order to improve their quality of life would somehow be effected by this tax.
     Reply
    librariesare4lovers was starred librariesare4lovers was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    12/17/09

    @librariesare4lovers: Generally speaking, insurance plans simply don't cover elective cosmetic surgery. I've never seen a plan that did, and I've reviewed a lot of them in my former career in HR.
     Reply
    Edited by la.donna.pietra at 12/17/09 11:15 AM la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of sfikus sfikus
    12/17/09

    @la.donna.pietra: Yes, and further - Section 125 of the IRS code which covers FSA (pre-tax Flex Savings Accounts) does not cover elective cosmetic surgery either. So if your teeth need whitening or your face needs tightening, you're on your own...
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra promoted this comment sfikus was starred sfikus was unstarred
    Image of Keep it cool Keep it cool
    12/17/09

    @librariesare4lovers: @la.donna.pietra: SAG (Screen Actors Guild) health insurance covers a lot of elective cosmetic surgery.
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra promoted this comment Keep it cool was starred Keep it cool was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    12/17/09

    @Keep it cool: No, it doesn't, as mentioned upthread:

    [www.sagph.org]
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of Keep it cool Keep it cool
    12/17/09

    @la.donna.pietra: I responded upthread
     Reply
    Edited by Keep it cool at 12/17/09 1:52 PM Keep it cool was starred Keep it cool was unstarred
    Image of Zombies make the heart grow fonder Zombies make the heart grow fonder
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    First, I think by arguing that cosmetic surgery is not a luxury, we perpetuate a problem that groups such as NOW claim they want to battle. That whole idea of people being more than just a pretty face or being accepted however they look goes right down the drain when we accept that cosmetic surgery is not a luxury.

    Further, high cost cosmetic procedures not being a luxury is a slap in the face to million of people who will never afford it. The fact is- there are millions of people who cannot afford to fix deformities let alone tone up their body after weight loss or smooth out their wrinkles.

    This is is a luxury. You can argue that a tax on it has a disparate impact on women, but it is clear to me at least that the reasoning is not some insidious attack on women, but rather a means of curbing what the medical industry would usually categorize as unnecessary medical procedures.
     Reply
    Zombies make the heart grow fonder was starred Zombies make the heart grow fonder was unstarred
    Image of femme-bot femme-bot
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    First they came for the smokers, and I did not speak out—because I was not a smoker;
    Then they came for the alcohol, and I did not speak out—because I do not drink alcohol;
    Then they came for the junk food, and I did not speak out—because I do not eat junk food;
    Then they came for botox—and there was no one left to speak out for me.
     Reply
    femme-bot was starred femme-bot was unstarred
    Image of PhDelish PhDelish
    12/17/09

    @femme-bot: I wish I could heart you twice.
     Reply
    Ms Meghan promoted this comment PhDelish was starred PhDelish was unstarred
    Image of Ms Meghan Ms Meghan
    12/17/09

    @PhDelish: i hearted her for you? :D
     Reply
    Ms Meghan was starred Ms Meghan was unstarred
    Image of thatsleepyperson thatsleepyperson
    12/17/09

    @femme-bot: ...Did you watch the Daily Show last night?
     Reply
    femme-bot promoted this comment thatsleepyperson was starred thatsleepyperson was unstarred
    Image of femme-bot femme-bot
    12/17/09

    @thatsleepyperson: It was on it the background I think. Did he reference that?
     Reply
    femme-bot was starred femme-bot was unstarred
    Image of bookling bookling
    12/17/09

    @femme-bot: [www.thedailyshow.com]

    (I don't know how to embed that.) I wanted to punch Laura Ingraham in the face. More than usual.
     Reply
    Edited by bookling at 12/17/09 11:16 AM bookling was starred bookling was unstarred
    Image of femme-bot femme-bot
    12/17/09

    @bookling: Oooh, I missed that, thanks!
     Reply
    femme-bot was starred femme-bot was unstarred
    Image of PhDelish PhDelish
    12/17/09

    @Ms Meghan: Then I'll heart you! Thursday happy time!

    ...sorry I went out to a really nice dinner last night so I'm still on super high vibes.
     Reply
    PhDelish was starred PhDelish was unstarred
    Image of Ms Meghan Ms Meghan
    12/17/09

    @PhDelish: Hooray! Hearts all around!!! :D

    (I just made choc. chip cookies, and may have *ahem* tested a few....sugar high ftw!!)
     Reply
    Ms Meghan was starred Ms Meghan was unstarred
    Image of TheFormerJuneBronson TheFormerJuneBronson
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    I'm not all that worried about this. It is in fact a luxury tax--nobody needs Botox to survive. It's the same as taxing alcohol or tobacco or restaurant meals, as far as I'm concerned. Yes, it's probably disproportionately levied on women, but other luxury taxes are disproportionately levied on other identity groups--smokers, alcoholics--and people not in those groups seem okay with that. It's more fair than taxing Tampax, I'll say that much. Conceivably, both men and women can use Botox. I've yet to meet a man who has a use for feminine care products, though I'll surely be inundated with people who know men who have off-label uses for them.
     Reply
    TheFormerJuneBronson was starred TheFormerJuneBronson was unstarred
    Image of Questioning Everything Questioning Everything
    12/17/09

    @TheFormerJuneBronson: I'm going to be a broken record here, but Botox is a wonder drug for many applications that have nothing to do with beauty. We can't be so callous about this when we don't realize how many great things that certain cosmetic procedures can do to help people for reasons that have nothing to do with vanity.

    How do we separate two and not punish those that get these procedures for more "legit" reasons?
     Reply
    Questioning Everything was starred Questioning Everything was unstarred
    Image of librariesare4lovers librariesare4lovers
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: I know Botox can be used for people who suffer from hyperhidrosis but what else is is used for that wouldn't be considered cosmetic?
     Reply
    librariesare4lovers was starred librariesare4lovers was unstarred
    Image of librariesare4lovers librariesare4lovers
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: Nevermind- I hadn't gotten to your comments down thread yet :)
     Reply
    librariesare4lovers was starred librariesare4lovers was unstarred
    Image of TheFormerJuneBronson TheFormerJuneBronson
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: Great. Let me give you a list of things I'd like you to subsidize so I can feel better about myself. They aren't strictly cosmetic, you understand. They're about my quality of life. Ready? You'll need a checkbook.

    I don't see the tax as a punishment any more than restaurant taxes are punishments for not cooking, or taxes on alcohol are punishments for being alcoholic. They are taxes that help to subsidize services we all use, levied on goods and services that are not strictly necessary for life. And you can go on and on as much as you like about cosmetic procedures that improve people's quality of life, and about some, I'm willing to concede, but I don't think your general point is valid where this particular tax is concerned. It will probably be more nuanced in actual practice, just like the coverage of certain cosmetic procedures varies with insurance companies according to why we need them. But unless you can prove to me that the vast majority of people getting Botox treatments are doing it for non-cosmetic reasons, and that those non-cosmetic reasons truly contribute to that person's physical health, I stand by my position.
     Reply
    TheFormerJuneBronson was starred TheFormerJuneBronson was unstarred
    Image of InABook InABook
    12/17/09

    @TheFormerJuneBronson: the issue here though is that Botox can help a career in the way that things like alcohol and cigarettes can't. I've not made up my mind on this, but I do understand why, especially in a recession, people who are already worried about keeping their jobs or getting new ones will be upset by a tax on something that makes them appear more marketable.
     Reply
    bluebears promoted this comment InABook was starred InABook was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    12/17/09

    @InABook: I mean...I just don't agree that it can really help a career (unless you're on tv or something). It mentions lawyers, I really don't know any woman lawyer who feels the need to get botox to keep their job. Maybe in different markets its different but...personal experience? That's bullshit.
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of redqueenmeg redqueenmeg
    12/17/09

    @librariesare4lovers: I think twitchy facial tics and stuff.
     Reply
    redqueenmeg was starred redqueenmeg was unstarred
    Image of allyzay allyzay
    12/17/09

    @InABook: I'm sorry, but do you happen to live someplace where clothing isn't taxed? Or grooming products? These are also things that are necessary to "appear more marketable" and, where I live at least, they are taxed. At a higher rate than 5%, actually. Is this unfair?
     Reply
    allyzay was starred allyzay was unstarred
    Image of InABook InABook
    12/17/09

    @bluebears: As I said, my mind isn't made up on this issue. I can see merits and flaws to both arguments. I just think that some of the comparisons people make are straying from the actual points and making analogies to things that just aren't relevant here.
     Reply
    InABook was starred InABook was unstarred
    Image of InABook InABook
    12/17/09

    @allyzay: I haven't made up my mind on whether taxing botox is fair, and I haven't put much thought into the taxing of clothing. But less expensive clothing can actually look presentable, if that's what you're trying to say.

    And what are you sorry about? Just injecting a comment that doesn't make much sense, and asking me about shopping in the area I live?
     Reply
    InABook was starred InABook was unstarred
    Image of DillianLovesPickles DillianLovesPickles
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    Perhaps a tax on hair plugs as well?
     Reply
    femme-bot promoted this comment DillianLovesPickles was starred DillianLovesPickles was unstarred
    Image of femme-bot femme-bot
    12/17/09

    @DillianLovesPickles: I like this idea.
     Reply
    femme-bot was starred femme-bot was unstarred
    Image of BeckyIva BeckyIva
    12/17/09

    @DillianLovesPickles: I'm pretty sure the proposed tax is on all cosmetic procedures, which would include hair plugs.
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra promoted this comment BeckyIva was starred BeckyIva was unstarred
    Image of Blueberry26 Blueberry26
    12/17/09

    @DillianLovesPickles: I don't see why not. They're far from necessary, except for the reasons stated above for other cosmetic procedures. I wonder if this is included. If not, it would certainly be revealing.
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra promoted this comment Blueberry26 was starred Blueberry26 was unstarred
    Image of PhDelish PhDelish
    12/17/09

    @DillianLovesPickles: A tax on male sexual dysfunction drugs would be nice, too.
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra promoted this comment PhDelish was starred PhDelish was unstarred
    Image of Questioning Everything Questioning Everything
    12/17/09

    In reply to Prick Me: Is A Tax On Botox Discriminatory Towards Women?
    Here's the thing -- Beauty standards are out of hand, but we can't ignore them. They need to be changed, but it's not a black and white issue.

    1) People sometimes do what they feel they need to do to get ahead. I have one eyelid that droops more than another, so I've had Botox to help even that out. It makes a world of difference to my self esteem Am I being insanely vain?

    2) I used to work in with physicians in this industry and aside from the likes of Orange County, you can't just assume that everybody that gets cosmetic procedures does it for vanity. Here are some examples:
    - Women with PCOS often get laser hair removal because excess hair is an unfortunate side effect.
    - Women get breast lifts or implants after losing large amounts weight or after a mastectomy or lumpectomy.
    - Botox is regularly used for many things not related to cosmetic issues like migraines, sinus issues, chronic pain, chronic sweating issues, vocal issues, etc.
    - Men and women get chemical peels and certain laser procedures to get rid of precancerous skin cells on their body (usually the face).

    All of these procedures are probably used more by those that don't necessarily "need" them, but do we punish those that do need them because of those that do? I don't know and I don't know how you always can easily separate the two reasons out.
     Reply
    Edited by Questioning Everything at 12/17/09 10:23 AM Questioning Everything was starred Questioning Everything was unstarred
    Image of femme-bot femme-bot
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: Are taxes a "punishment"?
    I consider paying taxes my duty. But I'm crazy and patriotic, or whatever.
     Reply
    femme-bot was starred femme-bot was unstarred
    Image of Rare Affinity Rare Affinity
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: In the UK you can get breast implants, rhinoplasty etc on the NHS if your doctor can make a good enough case as to why you need it on medical or psychological grounds. A distinction is made between "cosmetic" procedures and those required on medical grounds. Thus a young woman, once dubbed the heaviest teenager in the country, got a gastric band on the NHS but was not allowed to have her sagging skin treated on the NHS. Likewise, I can have a porcelain bridge on my teeth on the NHS if it is at the front of my mouth but not if it is at the back.
     Reply
    Edited by Rare Affinity at 12/17/09 10:40 AM Rare Affinity was starred Rare Affinity was unstarred
    Image of Elle O. Elle Elle O. Elle
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: Would the non-cosmetic uses not get taxed? I could be wrong on this, but aren't there some procedures that insurance might not cover if it's just cosmetic, but will if there is some sort of need? Implants for someone who'd had a breast removed obviously aren't going to be seen the same as someone who just wants implants, facial surgery on someone who's had some sort of accident won't be looked at the same way as a person who gets a facelift for purely cosmetic reasons.
     Reply
    Questioning Everything promoted this comment Elle O. Elle was starred Elle O. Elle was unstarred
    Image of Questioning Everything Questioning Everything
    12/17/09

    @femme-bot: Wow, okay. I find it strange that some don't realize that cosmetic procedures aren't all elective vanity issues, thus jump on the bandwagon to say, no problem, tax away.

    Our tax system rewards the rich and screws the middle class. I specifically said that I don't know what the right thing to do is, but I do know that we can get more money from things like bringing back the rules of our old Estate Tax than by doing this.
     Reply
    Questioning Everything was starred Questioning Everything was unstarred
    Image of PhDelish PhDelish
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: I feel like these are procedures that would fall more under medical necessity, and hopefully would not be taxed. Do you think they should/could be a system of differentiation in which types of plastic surgery or botox use get taxed? Do you think they can do that? I don't know if the current provision has stipulations for medical versus truly cosmetic, but what you've said is very compelling.

    I know quite a few people who have had "cosmetic" surgery in response to serious medical issues, so I agree with you that it's definitely not always a superficial thing.
     Reply
    Questioning Everything promoted this comment PhDelish was starred PhDelish was unstarred
    Image of Questioning Everything Questioning Everything
    12/17/09

    @Elle O. Elle: But even if insurance covers it, doesn't it still get taxed? I don't know but assume so. My insurance covers what they consider reasonable and customary, so anything over comes out of my pocket...thus adding a tax means adding cost to my premiums or out of pocket. Or worse, possibly prompting the insurance companies to stop covering many of these procedures all together.
     Reply
    Edited by Questioning Everything at 12/17/09 10:56 AM Questioning Everything was starred Questioning Everything was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: These are good points but if there was to be a tax I would imagine there would probably be a distinction made between those getting botox for medical reasons and those getting it for non-medical reasons. And if there's not I think that's where medical organizations and others protesting the tax should target their efforts.
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of femme-bot femme-bot
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: It's like this, my insurance covers "cosmetic" procedures if they aren't "cosmetic". If you're getting something for non cosmetic reasons, it wouldn't be "cosmetic" anymore. Ergo, exempt from this tax. Follow?
    How is the middle class screwed by taxes?
     Reply
    femme-bot was starred femme-bot was unstarred
    Image of Questioning Everything Questioning Everything
    12/17/09

    @PhDelish: This I don't know and I've not researched it enough to know how they can separate the two. There are some things that are considered elective now that are I feel should be covered by all insurances. Like excessive facial due to PCOS. Some things may just depend upon the doctor codes it.
     Reply
    Questioning Everything was starred Questioning Everything was unstarred
    Image of Lymed Lymed
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: This tax is not going to apply to medically necessary procedures. That means it should not apply to the list of conditions you list for which botox is used medically. I don't know about everything else, but a lot of insurance companies will actually pay for breast reconstruction after a mastectomy. Again, if it is medically necessary it is very unlikely it will be taxed.

    That doesn't mean every example you list won't be taxed. But tax policy, like all policy, is about balancing needs. At the end of the day, policy makers need to determine if the benefit outweighs the negative impact. In this case, will the benefits of the health reform package outweigh the negative impact on people who are getting cosmetic procedures that are not medically necessary but also not as simple as vanity?
     Reply
    Lymed was starred Lymed was unstarred
    Image of Elle O. Elle Elle O. Elle
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think it does. I did a quick google search, and it doesn't look like any medical proceedures are taxed, but like I said, this was just a quick google search.

    I don't think insurance is taxable either, I know mine is taken out of my check pretax, and again, a brief google search doesn't bring up anything that says otherwise.
     Reply
    Elle O. Elle was starred Elle O. Elle was unstarred
    Image of InABook InABook
    12/17/09

    @femme-bot: It's good that you consider them that way, but "sin" taxes at least are intended as a punishment, to reduce unhealthy behaviors. This is a luxury tax, so it's different, but acting as if the actual purpose of a tax is always purely to raise revenue misses important parts of the issue.
     Reply
    femme-bot promoted this comment InABook was starred InABook was unstarred
    Image of Gavagirl Gavagirl
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: a migraine treatment is not a cosmetic procedure. They are taxing *procedures*, not Botox itself. I realize you probably understand this, but you aren't stating your questions as if you're keeping that in mind.

    Also, taxes are not a punishment. That's propagandist terminology.
     Reply
    femme-bot promoted this comment Gavagirl was starred Gavagirl was unstarred
    Image of Questioning Everything Questioning Everything
    12/17/09

    @femme-bot: If you think that the tax code hasn't been rigged (esp w/the last admin) to favor the rich, then we happen to disagree.
    • Shrinking the estate tax
    • Rolling back taxes paid by investors and corporations
    • Using revenues from payroll taxes on workers to mask the cost of tax cuts for the rich
    To me, none of those things helped the middle class.
     Reply
    Edited by Questioning Everything at 12/17/09 11:17 AM Questioning Everything was starred Questioning Everything was unstarred
    Image of Questioning Everything Questioning Everything
    12/17/09

    @Lymed: I'm sure you're right. I was more reacting to knee jerk reactions and trying to give examples of reasons why people get cosmetic procedures.

    I've witnessed how some insurance plans cover certain procedures that others don't...so does the person with the crappier plan have to pay 5% more out of pocket because their plan isn't as good?
     Reply
    Edited by Questioning Everything at 12/17/09 11:21 AM Questioning Everything was starred Questioning Everything was unstarred
    Image of femme-bot femme-bot
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: Favoring the rich =/= screwing the middle class.
     Reply
    femme-bot was starred femme-bot was unstarred
    Image of femme-bot femme-bot
    12/17/09

    @InABook: I'm not sure if I see sin taxes as a way to reduce unhealthy behaviors. If they're making money off of my unhealthy behavior, why would they want to reduce it?
    There are ways to reduce unhealthy behaviors, and extra taxes aren't going to do it.
    Even if they did do it to reduce unhealthy behaviors, I'm not sure I'd consider that a punishment.
     Reply
    femme-bot was starred femme-bot was unstarred
    Image of Questioning Everything Questioning Everything
    12/17/09

    @femme-bot: Okay, again you and I disagree.
     Reply
    Questioning Everything was starred Questioning Everything was unstarred
    Image of Questioning Everything Questioning Everything
    12/17/09

    @Elle O. Elle: Thanks
     Reply
    Questioning Everything was starred Questioning Everything was unstarred
    Image of Lymed Lymed
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: I would think it shouldn't make a difference whether or not the insurance covers it. The taxation should depend on the procedural code and the diagnostic code. Botox that accompanies a diagnostic code relating to chronic pain should not be taxed. Tax deductions related to medical care often depend on the patients' doctors' determination that something is medically necessary. But that would mean the person providing the taxed service would be deciding when it should be taxed and when it shouldn't.

    I haven't read the legislation, so I'm not sure what detail it gets into. Most likely, this detail will be left to the IRS in writing regulations.
     Reply
    Lymed was starred Lymed was unstarred
    Image of InABook InABook
    12/17/09

    @femme-bot: I actually agree with you that they aren't likely to reduce unhealthy behaviors, but I do think the attempt to punish people for engaging in those behaviors in an effort to reduce them is a large motivation behind certain taxes. I don't think it works well, but I do think it's the reasoning-- and that examining reasoning is just as valuable as examining effects.
     Reply
    InABook was starred InABook was unstarred
    Image of Questioning Everything Questioning Everything
    12/17/09

    @Gavagirl: I feel that our tax code has evolved to be very friendly to the rich and corporations. The cuts from the Bush Admin mostly targeted these specific groups and helped (along with other things) lead us into the debt we're in. The loss of revenue from these places has meant cuts to social and assistance programs that help middle and working class people, as well as the poor. To me, that feels like punishment.

    I never said that I don't believe in paying taxes in any way, shape, or form. I said that the way our tax code had evolved, it has caused more burden on on everybody that isn't either a large corporations and part of the very rich!
     Reply
    Edited by Questioning Everything at 12/17/09 1:00 PM Questioning Everything was starred Questioning Everything was unstarred
    Image of Gavagirl Gavagirl
    12/17/09

    @Questioning Everything: Ah, I see where you are now. Just be careful about co-opting rhetoric from the other side. The wealthy and the corporations like to say that raising their taxes is "punishing success", which I agree is stupid.

    I'm also kind of leery when people in these articles claim to be "middle class" folks, who are being unfairly burdened. Some people making well into 6 figures a year still run around claiming to be "average middle class".
     Reply
    Gavagirl was starred Gavagirl was unstarred
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