healthcare, ;msg1560

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meritxell: an erotic life
05:08 PM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
You know, I'm generally a "conservative progressive", evolution-not-revolution, art-of-the-possible arc-of-history-bends-towards-justice type, and I've held my nose and voted many, many times for Democrats who will never, ever be liberal enough for me, because I know that compromise is key and lesser-of-two-evils and all that.

But the failure to get meaningful health care reform isn't a compromise in order to gain political capital for something "bigger" further down the road. It is nothing less than the heart and moral center of the progressive movement, and should be the heart of the Democratic party, and this is exactly a war that should be fought for and a pyre to die on. THIS IS IT. This is not the issue to postpone or to say now's not the time.

There's only so much compromise and lesser-of-two evils you can choose without having it eventually just kill your soul. I was disdainful of the Naderites and Lord knows the GOP holds the world record for batshit insanity, but I might have to vote 3rd party in 2012. Obama didn't get his LBJ on for what could've been the defining moment of his presidency and we're all going to suffer.

Oh and PS Lieberman, do not pass GO, go directly to hell, you insufferable, evil cockweasel.
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Jack_Burton
02:16 PM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
The public's bailing out the insurance companies and banks has a condition, in my book: realistic healthcare reform. Government exists partially to protect consumers from faulty or dangerous products, and that's what health insurance in this country is - a massive fraud that bankrupts and afflicts millions.

The time has come to leverage the financial weakness of these institutions into a fair playing field for consumers. Anything less is a compromise that stuffs the pockets of the rich and condemns another generation to destitution, debilitation and death.
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eatsshootsleaves
12:56 PM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
I think saying that the wonk argument is that it's "all part of the Democrats' master plan" is deeply unfair to the wonks. What they're saying is that this bill is better than the status quo, and so it makes sense to pass it even if it isn't perfect. What FireDogLake seems to be saying is that instead of improving conditions for millions of people (it's highly likely when the CBO scores this bill, they WILL find that it helps millions of people -- I'm likely to be one of them), it's better to wait until we can get something more perfect. Why the fuck should we wait perhaps another decade before making even an incremental move towards solving serious problems?

I really don't see any rational argument for not passing it. Either way, we're not going to get another chance at health care reform for a while. We should have a success now and build on it later.

[www.fivethirtyeight.com]
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eatsshootsleaves
01:04 PM

@eatsshootsleaves: [voices.washingtonpost.com]
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eatsshootsleaves
01:14 PM

@eatsshootsleaves: On what the bill would probably still do (in addition to, according to the CBO, expanding coverage to almost 30 million more Americans).

[voices.washingtonpost.com]
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Vermontboy
01:31 PM

@eatsshootsleaves: This bill would reduce or eliminate access to reproductive care for almost everyone. This bill will do nothing to control the cost of insurance, which is perhaps the biggest problem we face. And this bill will empower the insurance companies, giving them more customers and more money, getting very little in return (only a ban on preexisting condition exclusions, not a minor issue, to be sure, but not a big bottom line cost to the industry). I don't consider that a success.
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savethemax
01:41 PM

@eatsshootsleaves: yeah that article is from the beginning of september. they've raped and pillaged it plenty more by now.
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eatsshootsleaves
01:44 PM

@savethemax: Not really. The bill from September -- the Finance Committee Bill -- is extremely similar to the one we're facing now. It also didn't have a public option. In fact, some things from that bill may end up improving -- I think it's likely that subsidies will go up.
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Edited by eatsshootsleaves at 12/16/09 1:47 PM eatsshootsleaves was starred eatsshootsleaves was unstarred

eatsshootsleaves
01:46 PM

@Vermontboy: Give me some specific statistics that back this up -- not because I necessarily doubt you, but because I want to see exactly what you're referring to.
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Questioning Everything
01:54 PM

@Vermontboy: It's gonna have a hugely negative impact on reproductive choice access for women in the military.
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Vermontboy
02:16 PM

@eatsshootsleaves:
On the effect of the Stupak amendment:
[www.talkingpointsmemo.com]

On the potential savings from the public option:
[www.law.berkeley.edu]

On what will happen to premiums if there is no regulatory or competitive control of the industry:
[www.commonwealthfund.org]
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BearDownCBears
02:30 PM

@Vermontboy: One caveat: there were never going to be any real cost controls on this bad boy. It allegedly would have reduced the deficit, fine. It would have given people a slowly growing catch-all public option with subsidies if they didn't qualify for Medicaid. But the only POSSIBLE cost curve benders were those rinkydink pilot programs (here's hoping!) and the Cadillac tax, which had the unions throwing a shit fit, so I don't know if it would have passed reconciliation. The House bill, according to the CBO, would have actually bent the curve UP.

This was always primarily a coverage bill.
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Edited by BearDownCBears at 12/16/09 2:40 PM BearDownCBears was starred BearDownCBears was unstarred

savethemax
03:09 PM

@eatsshootsleaves: similar except there is no expansion of medicare, no "out of pocket" caps, or anything else that will actually make a difference to anyone except that now we'll all probably be forced to buy private insurance or be penalized, and technically insurance companies won't be able to cancel your existing insurance due to a preexisting condition, though they can still cap your benefits, which is the issue for most people anyway. oh and it makes it slightly less likely your medical debt will lead to bankruptcy, but that's really more for the banks than for us (again,) isn't it?
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savethemax
03:12 PM

@eatsshootsleaves: also, who is really going to profit from these subsidies? [www.huffingtonpost.com]
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eatsshootsleaves
04:32 PM

@savethemax: Here is a list of some things that would actually make a difference to many people:

[motherjones.com]
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AlFuncoot
04:36 PM

@eatsshootsleaves: As I read it, the point being made at FireDoglake isn't that it'd be better to wait for something "perfect" but that the individual mandate combined with the lack of a public option or Medicare expansion will make things worse. It'll make it harder to fix health care in the future (because insurance companies will be in charge of more people's health and have even more leverage).

The individual mandate is supposed to help keep costs down because, theoretically, it'll be people who don't need health care (and cost less to cover) who will stay out of the system. But without any method to pressure insurance companies to accept a quarter without growth, how will that work in the long run?

The opposition isn't about demanding perfection but arguing that the individual mandate makes the problem worse, in a way that doesn't make up for the insurance reform measures.
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eatsshootsleaves
04:39 PM

@AlFuncoot: Then why aren't liberal bloggers pressuring Congress to add in more cost-saving measures instead of killing the bill?

And why weren't they interested in doing this before the public option was stripped, since the CBO and most other objective sources showed it wasn't doing much to contain costs anyway?
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FotoVerite
12:33 PM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
Also guys, I am so over Obama, he's terrible and at least Feingold is standing up to his ineptitude and his vagrant disregard for the American people. Feingold one of the few Dems who I truly respect still.

He's breaking the promises that mattered most. I knew he was bad from the time he voted for FISA. I so wish we had Hillary.

"This bill appears to be legislation that the president wanted in the first place, so I don’t think focusing it on Lieberman really hits the truth," said Feingold. "I think they could have been higher. I certainly think a stronger bill would have been better in every respect."

[thehill.com]
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eatsshootsleaves
01:18 PM

@FotoVerite: I bet you a thousand bucks Feingold's still going to vote for the bill.
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FotoVerite
01:23 PM

@eatsshootsleaves: Then he believes like you do that any reform is better then nothing. He's been fighting that's all I can ask.
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sybann
12:31 PM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
Obviously the poor health insurance companies need to be protected from the citizens who actually expect them to do what they've contracted with our companies and ourselves. How can we expect them to actually pay OUR medical bills AND their McMansion mortgages?

I'd like to punch Leiberman in the face, but he's got awesome medical coverage through his job.
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Blueberry26
12:17 PM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
If my senators weren't already Republican, I'd ask them to vote no on this baby. As much as I wanted it, this is the worst possible thing for all of us uninsured people. It could ruin us. $300-400/month is over half what I make, and I know my situation is not uncommon at all.

Anyone who supports this bill now is obviously doing it for the same reasons the GOP opposes it. I agree with Howard Dean, kill it.

And I just have to add how fucking depressed this whole thing makes me. I can't even express it. People joke about how ineffectual the Dem. majority is, but it's gotten hard to laugh because it's so true. I've never felt so disillusioned before in my life, which is admittedly not that long. I really believed that Obama would try to make things better, but he's chosen to stay out of one of the debates where he's needed most.
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jigglyball
12:12 PM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
Oh, Organizing for Reform/barackobama.com, you guys picked the exact wrong week to hit my inbox with donation requests. When it comes to spending my dollar on items with a lot of pomp but little punch, I think I'll stick with light beer and movies featuring Jennifer Aniston.
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Thus Spake KATE!
11:59 AM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
So, the public option is out and all Americans will be required to buy private health insurance at market-rates or face a 3,000 dollar fine? Wow, this healthcare reform is the best thing to ever happen to the private insurance industry!
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bluebears
12:03 PM

@Thus Spake KATE!: What a delightful stocking stuffer for our beloved insurance corporations.
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sybann
12:33 PM

@bluebears: Blood. In. The. Streets.

My calls for revolution are getting old, huh?
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J.D.Regent
12:39 PM

@sybann: No way dude (not getting old). If we had been organized and in the streets when Obama was "deciding" to scale up in Afghanistan and during this whole debacle, our beloved elected officials would NOT be able to get away with this shit.
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HannahBethD
12:45 PM

@sybann: Give me a date and time and I'll have my pitchfork ready, my dear.
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BearDownCBears
12:48 PM

@sybann: But Republicans own all the guns. And judging from the electoral map, they own all the pitchforks, too.
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sybann
03:00 PM

@BearDownCBears: I have fingernails and am THAT pissed that they wouldn't stand a chance. We need to fire ALL of these assholes in the next election and reform lobbying into extinction.
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Mireille is German for the Bart, the.
11:50 AM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
What boggles my mind is seeing some people, like Matt Yglesias telling people that want to kill the bill to grow up.

Grow up? How? Like eating the vegetables you don't like to please your parents? At least in that case, it's actually good for you. This is like eating a shit sandwich to please your pervy uncle who is still going to Lovely Bones you anyway.

And as for Joe Lieberman, he's not even a douchebag. He's a leaking colostomy bag.
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Questioning Everything
11:55 AM

@Mireille is German for the Bart, the.: Matt Yglesias, Greg Sargent, Ezra Klein, Kevin Drum and even Josh Marshall are all singing that tune. Thanks guys!
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bluebears
11:56 AM

@Mireille is German for the Bart, the.: I would grow up but I'm terrified of aging in our current health care system!
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J.D.Regent
11:58 AM

@Mireille is German for the Bart, the.: haaaaaaate. HATE moderates who act like being wimpy and centrist and useless are just being mature and professional! Please, you motherfuckers wouldn't even HAVE a Democratic party to shit on without the far(ther) left.
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Questioning Everything
12:15 PM

@J.D.Regent: without the far(ther) left, moderates would be the ones viewed as radical leftists. They wouldn't be able to handle it.
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PilgrimSoul
11:40 AM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
I miss LBJ.
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bluebears
11:43 AM

@PilgrimSoul: Say what you will about his method, and his Vietnam policies, he wasn't perfect, but he pushed valuable legislation through. He got shit done.
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PilgrimSoul
11:48 AM

@bluebears: He inherited Vietnam from Kennedy who somehow, in the popular imagination, ended up with credit for the Great Society.

I hate people who love Kennedy for this reason.
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bluebears
11:53 AM

@PilgrimSoul: Yeah, he in no way got us into Vietnam but he ramped up troop levels, kind of like....hm. Kennedy was in no way the liberal champion that the myths paint him to be (as I'm sure you realize) and I hate the mindless adoration.
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Edited by bluebears at 12/16/09 11:53 AM bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred

HannahBethD
12:07 PM

@PilgrimSoul: I work at a community action agency created by LBj's Great Society. I didn't know much about him or his War on Poverty til I got here, but now, seeing all the help that people still need in this supposed land of plenty, I tip my hat to him.
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Norton
01:15 PM

@PilgrimSoul: Oh thank goodness! I hate the Kennedy love. I have a 20-minute rant about McCarthyism and anti-Communist sentiment and racism regarding JFK and RFK that I will spare you.
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rentkyo
11:20 AM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
I have a question about the public option if anyone can help me. I've been all for it until I learned more about how the Health Care industry works price-wise and how more competition in more markets can actually cause premiums to skyrocket. I was reading the bill a couple of days ago and it sounded like if you don't buy insurance of some kind, you get punished with a fine. I might be reading it the wrong way, I don't know. I'm not rabble-rousing. I'm genuinely curious if anyone else has read this and had a different take. I have to say that punishing people for not being able to afford even a much cheaper public option doesn't jive right, but I could have missed other provisions within the bill that address the issue.

I think the fact that so much else got cut though is what's really frustrating. There needs to be so much more regulation in regards to the pharmaceutical and health care industry.
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NotChoinski
11:36 AM

@rentkyo:

Welcome to the infuriating world of health care reform!

Everyone must be covered, Including the healthy young who will pay into the system long before they make claims and poor people who will otherwise end up in the hospital anyway at twice the cost on someone elses dime.

Once everyone is required to buy coverage, completely gut the parts where it brings down the cost - a public option, competition, bulk negotiated rates and prices.

Insurance companies get millions of new, profitable customers while the sick ones get pushed onto a neutered government program that won't be able to bring down costs even when it can and wants to.

Thank you Lieberman! Thank you Snowe! Thank you Palin, and teabaggers, and idiot Joe Sixpack who deserves the shitty overpriced medical 'care' their lover of 'Freedoms' has bought.
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Questioning Everything
11:37 AM

@rentkyo: Yes. That's the single most despicable part of the bill. If you don't already have insurance from your employer, you're required to purchase a plan from one of the private insurance companies. There is no guarantee that the plan you can afford is even worthwhile, just that you're required to purchase or the gov't will fine you. Originally, the fine was set at 3K. This was lowered but I can't remember what to...maybe 1,500? Not surprisingly, the insurance companies were upset about it being lowered. Still, the $1,500 fine is a crime!

It's a gift to the insurance companies and a big fuck you to the people.
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rentkyo
12:05 PM

@NotChoinski: I think this is where I was mostly confused. I thought it only applied if the public option was still viable so that it was more of a debate about tax deductible vs. up front cost.

For crap's sake.
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rentkyo
12:11 PM

@Questioning Everything: It's just such a strange concept to me that we punish people over and over again for being poor. Not that it's new news mind you, but it still boggles my mind that this is ok. I almost wish the administration had started with a bill that forced more regulation on all aspects of the health care industry--insurance, pharmaceutical, and even the hospitals in terms of procedure costs. I almost wonder if the administration was so worried about getting health care reform under their belt before they had to start worrying about reelection again that they rushed through the process instead of really planning out how they were going to win this.
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Questioning Everything
12:26 PM

@rentkyo: This is largely their fault. They had a lot of say in this (though Obama tries to act like he didn't pressure congress). From the beginning, he didn't really want a public option. He also cut a deal with PHRMA up front because he didn't want the pharmaceutical industry to fight against the deal AND start directing ALL of their campaign money to the right.
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Questioning Everything
01:25 PM

@Questioning Everything: I want to clarify that I didn't mean it was the fault of poor people, but rather the Obama Admin.

My composition skills have never been very good. Sorry if I confused anyone.
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NotChoinski
11:18 AM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
What happened to reconciliation? Since the House Bill is more robust, and the Senate Bill is weak, why not reconcile to closer to the House bill, where only 50 Senate votes are needed?
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NapalmKitty
11:39 AM

@NotChoinski: reconciliation can only do so much. You can't require things like control costs, more substantial coverage, equal premiums for women etc...

Reconciliation has more to do with budgets.

Kill this piece of trash. Start over. Christ I hate the Dems. Can we stop rolling over our priciples?!

Anthony Wiener, an awesome congressman, is advocating for a single payer system with real cost controls that puts us back in charge of our healthcare system. This bill just hands the insurance companies everything they want.
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Questioning Everything
12:17 PM

@NapalmKitty: But even Anthony Weiner caved and want's this piece of shit to pass. It's a sad day when the guys you think you can count on end up caving to pressure.
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Lymed
11:13 AM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
I have a friend who is moving to Europe because she was just diagnosed with a chronic illness is unemployed and doesn't know how she can care for her illness when her COBRA runs out.

I work every day with working Americans who are uninsured or underinsured. The incremental reform will help a few of them. It may actually hurt more of them. If they are currently on a limited benefit plan because their employer only pays $200 a month for health care, what happens if we pass incremental reform that prevents plans from having annual limits but doesn't provide less expensive insurance options? The employers won't pay more. These low wage workers will now be asked to pay hundreds of dollars for their no-limit health insurance which means most of them will become uninsured.

I was so hopeful when the health reform debate began. I really thought we would have a better system. That we would save people's lives.
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PilgrimSoul
11:46 AM

@Lymed: Yes, the wonks are wrong. It's not incremental if it actually ends up harming the population you thought you were saving.
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Lymed
11:56 AM

@PilgrimSoul: And if you harm people with the first step, do you really think they'll let you take a second step?

Part of the problem is that it is so political. The politicians are now just trying to include the pieces that everybody supports. But everybody does not understand the health system. We can and should blame insurance companies for the pre-existing condition debacle. But annual limits are not just the insurance companies. They are also in existence because there are employers who refuse to pay for comprehensive insurance.
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soykatrina
11:08 AM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
For a good portion of my childhood I wanted to go into politics. I thought it was awesome that people could make a career at making American's life more kick ass. Then I grew up and realized that politics is all about making rich people's lives more kick ass. So I propose a new party, the Kick Ass party. The slogan can be something like "We're here to make your life more kick ass". We'll do things like pass health care reform and well, not only pass kick ass legislation, but kick the ass of bad politicians. Hopefully hypothetically, but I'm willing to go physical if it's best for the country--here's looking at you JOE LIEBERMAN (among many others of course...).
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Sev
11:05 AM

In reply to "Kill The Bill": Is Real Health Care Reform Still Worth Fighting For?
You know, even with everything the Dems gave up for this bill, I don't see one Republican voting for this bill. So, we lose everything that would have even resembled reform, Dems kowtowing to the right day after day, for nothing. Totally awesome.

The Republicans have stripped the bill of anything that would have been beneficial to the people. Now when it fails and premiums are skyrocketing they'll be able to stand back and say "What? We told you health care reform was a bad idea." They're killing millions of people just so they can look like they're right. Awesome job, assholes.
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J.D.Regent
11:13 AM

@Sev: oh no, they're not kowtowing for Republicans. they're kowtowing for conservative Democrats who don't know their ass from their elbow.
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Sev
11:16 AM

@J.D.Regent: "Conservative Democrats" are Republicans in my book. They're like those kids in school who walk around trashing whatever crappy band is popular but them you see them at the mall on Sunday buying the album. They don't want to admit to what they are, but they can't hide it.
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