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clevernamehere
12:21 AM

In reply to "It Is Mostly Women's Fault:" Helpful And Unhelpful Advice For Women At Work
Obviously, Rein is making a huge mistake in only promoting people who ask for promotions, he's probably missing some great talent.

But I do think women need to think about promotions and wage increases more.

At my first post college job, the salary was set and unmovable but being fresh undergrads I don't think we knew that. Only one person out of the 12 people I knew tried to negotiate at all, and he was one of the three guys at my level.

I negotiated my way into that job my playing a job offer elsewhere off an interview, but it didn't occur to me to bargain. I've seen a lot of comments in the open threads where people don't even try for a raise or worse still, stay at a job that won't promote them without looking elsewhere. You can often get more money as a new employee.

I know that women are looked down on for this behavior, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. Your co-workers and bosses don't actually have to like you. It is a risk, but asking for more isn't a bad idea.
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Sunshineyness
12:06 AM

In reply to "It Is Mostly Women's Fault:" Helpful And Unhelpful Advice For Women At Work
"Don't dress too sexy."

I think men need to grow up if they can't handle women not dressing like dowdy school marms at the work place. What the hell difference should it make in how we dress as long as it's tasteful? Are there infinite articles for men on how they should tuck in their shirts and not where Spiderman ties to work if THEY want to be taken seriously?
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Breamworthy
12/15/09

In reply to "It Is Mostly Women's Fault:" Helpful And Unhelpful Advice For Women At Work
The one and only time I got fired from a job was because my boss thought I was too pushy, when I was actually way less pushy than the guys who did similar jobs. When asked to cite an example, he talked about how by answering a question I had cut so-and-so off at a specific meeting... that so-and-so wasn't even at. Oh, I was also told that because I was overweight, I needed to be quieter and more careful than other people, because I could be perceived as threatening because of my size, when someone smaller wouldn't be perceived that way. This was framed as something *I* needed to deal with, rather than a problem on the part of the asshole with perception problems.

I was stupid and embarrassed, and I should have sued their asses, but I didn't. (That last part was never put in writing and he denied saying it later when I brought it up with HR.)
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pesematology
12/15/09

In reply to "It Is Mostly Women's Fault:" Helpful And Unhelpful Advice For Women At Work
I think far from paying less attention to the abortion issue, feminists need to start framing our efforts to make life more fully livable for mothers and better access to health care as an important abortion reduction strategy. I'm sure there are many women considering abortion who might be swayed to the side of keeping the baby if that didn't entail economic ruin, social stigma, and disastrous health consequences for both mother and child.
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redqueenmeg
12/15/09

In reply to "It Is Mostly Women's Fault:" Helpful And Unhelpful Advice For Women At Work
My evidence is only anecdotal but so far my male bosses have understood the need for work-life balance at a far greater rate than my female bosses. I haven't had a female boss yet who thought any such balance was necessary. But yeah, that's just me and I'm sure they're not all like that.
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sybann
12/15/09

In reply to "It Is Mostly Women's Fault:" Helpful And Unhelpful Advice For Women At Work
I am about to get turned down for a promotion again because the increased salary that goes with the title "is not in the budget."

But guess who'll be doing the job anyway? For the fourth time for the same company.

I am going to push the issue as hard as I can without jeopardizing my job.
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clevernamehere
12:13 AM

@sybann: I think the better option is to start quietly sending out your resume. You might have to wait until the economy recovers more, but I think it is a huge mistake to stay with a company that won't promote you/increase your pay. The strongest place to ask for a salary increase is when you are getting hired but already have a job.
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Jenloveshercurves
12/15/09

In reply to "It Is Mostly Women's Fault:" Helpful And Unhelpful Advice For Women At Work
I have no work life balance. Seriously. The only time in my day that I get to myself is when I come and read Jezebel. It's gotten to the point this last week where there were days I literally forgot to go to the bathroom from eight in the morning until eight at night. On Friday last week, I didn't eat the whole day because I worked the entire day. Work/life balance is something that my department talks about but there is no support for people in my position to have that. When I talk about the need to delegate things to other people, the response I get is that I should be doing that, not others. I'm really frustrated right now with everything that's on me and I feel like I have no support or recourse to talk about how difficult it is for me to work through this.
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shorty63136
12/15/09

@Jenloveshercurves: I'm not sure what line of work you're in but have you spoken with an HR person about it? I know it's always a delicate situation, taking things to HR, but you have said that it's been discussed to no avail. Just wondering.
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willwriteforfood
12/15/09

@Jenloveshercurves: Yes, I second shorty's comment. Surely what you're doing is not legal and somehow your employer is violating wage and hour laws by not giving you breaks.

I'd start documenting, every 20 minutes, exactly what you do every day, every task. That gives you ammunition to go to your boss and tell him you can't physically keep up this pace and proof that you aren't just complaining, you are doing far too much work.
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Jenloveshercurves
12/15/09

@shorty63136: I work in residence life for a university, so in essence I live where I work. This means that when there is an emergency, since I live here or just an obnoxious parent/student, they come literally to my house to have me deal with it. Also, since my job is about such strange hours yet I'm still expected to keep some semblance of regular office hours to deal with people in the main office who have 8am to 5pm jobs. So, there are times I'm working from 9am until midnight, actually, I like to call that time Tuesday. I'm not over-exaggerating. This is just my life. Also, my boss just said to me, "We don't have any other responsibilities like work or school or spouses so we can do the work that needs to be done here." I may not have those things, but my time is just as important. I don't think that I should have to sacrifice my physical and emotional well-being for my job, but this is the lesson that I'm learning.
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Gavagirl
12/15/09

@Jenloveshercurves: ah yes, the "single people's lives aren't worth anything" excuse. I've been there (pretty much the same hours, actually) and just ended up having to quit. But that was in the 1999 job market. *sigh*

The only advice I can give you is that sometimes it can help to start incrementally lowering expectations. If you think something will take you an hour, tell them it will be an hour and a half. Try not to get rattled by other people's "right now right now!", since a lot of people are just being silly panic monkeys anyway (or they need you right now because they let their own shit get behind). It will help you find little buffer zones of time, bit by bit, and then you can work on enlarging them and gaining control over your time. Maybe it's only 15 minutes here or there at first, but that's time to pee or have a sandwich (both if you're a brave multitasker!).
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Grim Reaper of the Forest
12/15/09

In reply to "It Is Mostly Women's Fault:" Helpful And Unhelpful Advice For Women At Work
Shaun sounds like a pushover. He only promotes people who ask for promotions?
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la_periodista
12/15/09

@Grim Reaper of the Forest: Sounds like there are probably a lot of people who work for him that could very possibly be better at ASKING for a better job than DOING a better job.

Way to take charge as a manager and choose your leaders for yourself.
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Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
12/15/09

@la_periodista: Word on both this and the comment you're responding to. Maybe I'm living in a dream world, but I've always been too busy working to brown nose and have still managed to get promoted (though always by women).
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Red-headed bookworm
12/15/09

@Grim Reaper of the Forest: I wondered about that. In my life, I've asked for a raise twice. Once I got it, the other time I was denied it. I wonder if this guy only gave raises when asked, which is crappy. Giving someone a raise because you recognize their work makes them feel better. If they have to ask for one, they feel like you don't notice what they do or don't pay attention to them.
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Grim Reaper of the Forest
12/15/09

@Red-headed bookworm: I've never asked for a raise or a promotion, but fortunately have had very supportive managers who have given me both. I do think women need to do a better job of asking for promotion, raises, and higher starting salaries. But, a good manager shouldn't be responding to that alone.
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willwriteforfood
12/15/09

@Grim Reaper of the Forest: My boss is like that. He's a nice guy, but I swear he doesn't notice anything if it's not in front of him and even then you have to remind him every five minutes. I was working 12-hour days for three months before I got up the nerve to ask for more money. He kind of looked at me like he was seeing me for the first time, and snapped to. "Oh yeah, you have been working pretty hard lately." And I got my bonus (not as good as a raise, but in this economy, I was surprised he had any money left for even that).

It helped that his boss had been hearing from my subordinates how many hours I was actually working. So it wasn't like my boss had to argue very hard for the extra money for me.
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J.D.Regent
12/15/09

In reply to "It Is Mostly Women's Fault:" Helpful And Unhelpful Advice For Women At Work
I am totally ready to sign up for a new feminist labor agenda for a post-industrial workplace. I just don't know where to find it, it's so hard to organize when everyone's workplace looks so different. Is it in the unions, in feminist groups? Where is the critical mass for this kind of reform?
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bluebears
12/15/09

@J.D.Regent: Right. I just don't think it can be accomplished solely through government programs. Although that would certainly help.

eta: and frankly the trend is AWAY from workers rights, not towards them.
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Edited by bluebears at 12/15/09 4:33 PM bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred

J.D.Regent
12/15/09

@bluebears: what do you mean by "government programs?
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bluebears
12/15/09

@J.D.Regent: health care and all other sorts of social programs that no one every wants their tax dollars to go towards (head start). Not necessarily dealing with employment, just in general programs that help working women.
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Edited by bluebears at 12/15/09 4:47 PM bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred

futuremouse
12/15/09

In reply to "It Is Mostly Women's Fault:" Helpful And Unhelpful Advice For Women At Work
"Am I sexist? No ... It is mostly women's fault"

These two sentences together... Does not compute.
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scullymurphy
12/15/09

In reply to "It Is Mostly Women's Fault:" Helpful And Unhelpful Advice For Women At Work
Man if I had a nickle for every time i've heard some guy make that 'women don't get raises because they don't ask for them' argument.
It makes my blood boil. As Anna points out there are a whole slew of reasons women aren't as free to ask for raises. Also has it occurred to anyone to stop beating this horse and examine - say - whether we do ask as much, but are just told, 'no' more?
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loudlyquiet
12/15/09

@scullymurphy:Well people also are trainable. As much as we like to think we aren't animals. If you tell a woman no a few dozen times she's going to stop asking. If you tell a man yes a few dozen times he's going to keep asking. Therefor you could have a system where currently women ask less and men ask more that is STILL sexist. (And it doesn't have to be direct training, you watch a coworker be told she's lucky to have a job at all and get extra work when she asks for a raise why would you bother? Because you can be smart enough to learn from others experiences, doesn't mean you or they deserve the raise less.)

I'm not sure this makes sense. But I do believe there was a study a few years ago that said that women did actually request raises less often but I wanted to point out that isn't the only issue. Now I'm going to see if I can't find the study.
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
12/15/09

@scullymurphy: I don't imagine this guy cares about examining that. He'd rather shaft the women and blame them for it. "I'm not sexist, but..." is about the same as "I'm not racist, but..."
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willwriteforfood
12/15/09

@BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit): A good rule for such remarks is if you have to qualify what's about to follow with "I'm not, but..." then for goddamn sure you definitely are.
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bluebears
12/15/09

In reply to "It Is Mostly Women's Fault:" Helpful And Unhelpful Advice For Women At Work
Anna, not trying to be argumentative but I'm confused as to what you mean by this, "the recession has shown that the old model in which employees relied on companies for their health insurance and retirement benefits, and in return often signed away their family lives, doesn't really work anymore."

I grew up in an area that was heavily populated by UAW and other unions and I really don't think most would agree that they had signed away their families lives. Maybe (probably) I'm missing your point.
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Penny
12/15/09

@bluebears: Yeah, my mom is in the UFCW and that's not the case. Maybe Anna is talking about pensions.
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bluebears
12/15/09

@Penny: yeah. I mean the fact is, unions protect workers. I agree that we need government health care and other government sponsored social programs (which were a part of the New Deal as well) but I think the "old" labor paradigm is still a good one.
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Edited by bluebears at 12/15/09 4:19 PM bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred

lizdexia
12/15/09

@bluebears: One of the reasons we're in the mess that we are is because unions and workers accepted health insurance in exchange for stagnating wages. If we uncoupled health insurance from employment, there'd be much less labor stagnation and probably higher wages. And as we've also learned lately, when a company or industry goes to hell, that pension you've been counting on goes too. Workers are much better off when they can secure their health and futures without an employer's largess, or without a union contract that may someday not be honored.
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bluebears
12/15/09

@lizdexia: Well, honestly workers were forced to compromise on shrinking wages and benefits because corporations were outsourcing the labor to third world countries were they could pay the workers pennies. It's a bit unfair to put that on the shoulders of the Unions. For years, generations, families were able to grow and thrive and send their kids to college on union wages, it's not labor that's changed but the global economy.
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Edited by bluebears at 12/15/09 4:29 PM bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred

J.D.Regent
12/15/09

@bluebears: i read anna not so much as criticizing unions but saying that this model of putting your whole family's future in one basket is turning out not to be sustainable economically or viable practically for the majority of workers.
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lizdexia
12/15/09

@bluebears: I meant like in the 50s when health insurance became a standard employment benefit. It's definitely a question of hindsight being 20-20, but health insurance should probably never have been associated with employment.
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Anna N.
12/15/09

@bluebears: I think my sentence is a little confusing, because now that I think about it I'm not sure those things can be called one "model." I'm not making an anti-union statement at all. I don't think being unionized had any negative impacts on people's families, and I didn't mean to suggest that it did. I guess what I'm saying is that getting health insurance through your employer isn't working, and a lot of employers aren't funding pension plans, AND the idea of a certain fixed work week for everyone is incompatible with people's (often but not always women's) caregiving responsibility. All these things need to be changed, but the solutions to them are different, and they're maybe not exactly reflective of one "model" as I imply. What I think: the government needs to adapt to help people get necessities companies aren't providing. And: companies need to adapt to retain and recruit workers, rather than expecting workers to always fit their lives around them. These are all part of a broad-based change in the way we work that I think can happen, but that faces a lot of obstacles (ie. articles like Rein's).
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bluebears
12/15/09

@lizdexia: agreed.

@J.D.Regent: ah, well that makes sense.
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bluebears
12/15/09

@Anna N.: Got it. Makes sense now. Thanks. :) I totally agree with that.
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Edited by bluebears at 12/15/09 4:37 PM bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred

BearDownCBears
12/15/09

@lizdexia: For that to happen you'd have to get rid of the pricing disparity between employed and unemployed workers. Congress tried to float that tax (actually, McCain) during the campaign and Obama shot it down, citing that it would put a big divot in union incomes (in the short term at least). This "Cadillac tax" is the poor-man's version, and labor is still squealing about it, rightly or wrongly.

Personally, I still have problems seeing why they can't nix the tax exclusion and then subsidize union members if they can no longer afford health insurance (back-door it). The nullification of this employment advantage can be augmented by the Wyden amendment, which, as I understand it, has close to no opposition. I think a major reason for the outcry is that, besides the labor members who will bear the actual costs, many progressives are repulsed by the thought of imposing the costs of any of this reform on anybody other than those making over $250k when those people have made insane strides in their personal income over the last 30 years.
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Edited by BearDownCBears at 12/15/09 4:46 PM BearDownCBears was starred BearDownCBears was unstarred

lizdexia
12/15/09

@BearDownCBears: Honestly, the biggest problem with our system is that it wasn't built, it evolved. No one in their right mind would design a system looking anything like ours. It's much harder to fix something that's the result of a more or less organic process than it is to dream up something ideal.
Your right about the need to bring pricing parity to insurance markets. McCain's tax really wasn't the worst idea, it was actually rather sound economically. It's fascinating how for years Republicans have been saying that the way to fix health care spending is to force consumers to be more price sensitive and bear more costs out of pocket (by dis-incentivizing the "cadillac plans" and encouraging the growth of HSA's, and now when anything that resembles a Medicare cut is floated to support subsidizing insurance for all, they scream about gov't rationing and death panels.
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
12/15/09

In reply to "It Is Mostly Women's Fault:" Helpful And Unhelpful Advice For Women At Work
Wow. Between being pregnant, single, working, or female - we really can't catch much of a break today, can we, Jez?
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zombies.like.lattés.too
12/15/09

@Rooo sez BISH PLZ: Amen to that. I only read the news anymore as an excuse to drink...
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
12/15/09

@zombies.like.lattés.too: If I had any sense of humor left, I'd say you don't need an excuse to drink.
(Although I'm not sure what time it is where you are. ;-) )
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BetteD
11/08/09

In reply to Democrats To Allow Vote On Amendment Restricting Abortion Coverage In Hopes Of Ultimately Passing Health Care Bill
This is like the morning after Obama won, and we found out that thousands of Californians lost the ability to choose who they could marry. Except I feel, if possible, even more HULK SMASH-y here.

New rule: the word "stupid" doesn't exist anymore. Instead, we shall use the term "stupak." As in: "Dude, you totally just alienated more than two-thirds of your own party! That's totally fucking STUPAK!!!!"

Sorry...I have to make small attempts at funny here. Otherwise I will lose my fucking mind from the bottomless rage I am feeling due to women once AGAIN being fucked by the party that is supposedly in favor of Women's Rights. Remember assholes: Women's Rights are Human Rights. We will not forget this. We will not stop fighting this. We will WIN. #healthcare
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Old Jean Gallagher
11/07/09

In reply to Democrats To Allow Vote On Amendment Restricting Abortion Coverage In Hopes Of Ultimately Passing Health Care Bill
Late to the party, but:

How is it that 30 Republicans can bravely come out in favor of rape by voting against Senator Franken's amendment, but the Dems are so afraid of standing up for women's rights to a legal medical procedure? What is the white Republican heterosexual male's secret?

I am so FUCKING SICK of women constantly getting failed by everyone, every time, whether by brash Republican ignorance or meek Democratic pandering. #healthcare
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If_I_Had_a_Poodle
11/07/09

@Old Jean Gallagher: ****THANK YOU******* #healthcare
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BetteD
11/08/09

@Old Jean Gallagher: **Standing Ovation**

Seriously. If this had been a real standing o, my palms would be bleeding. #healthcare
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