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Shop At Your Own Risk

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bowleserised
11/11/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
I expect the toilet was up to standard for disabled users - there are too many regulations in the UK for that not to be the case in a big shop like Marks.

At least she had some recourse. I'll always remember going out with a friend in a wheelchair and watching as the taxi drivers - even those with special elevators for wheelchairs - zoomed past us with their "for hire" lights on full.
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resonanteye
11/11/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
At one of the last studios I worked at a large woman in a chair was unable to lift herself from the toilet (it was handicapped-accessible, with a bar and such) back into her chair. She asked for help.

I weigh about 90 pounds, as did our receptionist. I sent the receptionist back out to call 911 and the woman got furious- as if it was my obligation to lift her somehow...

at any rate 911 came, lifted her, made sure she was ok (even though she was very VERY angry and all) and I tried to be polite.

There was no way on earth I could lift her and being that I had no health insurance, no way I wanted to put myself at any physical risk to try. She simply didn't want to hear this and never came back (although she would have been welcome to)

This story makes me wonder if it was that kind of situation- the way that woman was so furious at me for being unable to deadlift 300 pounds...I think if I had been having a bad day I might have banned her just for her bad attitude...if you need help that is not something the person there can provide, why get angry when they call someone who CAN help? I'll never understand that.
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clevernamehere
11/11/08

@resonanteye: Did you ask her before you called 911? Since she wasn't in a dire situation, I don't think just calling 911 is okay. She should have been consulted.
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clevernamehere
11/10/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
Stories like this are why I am so grateful that Obama mentioned disabilities in his victory speech. I'm a very aware of how people behave towards the disabled because my father was a paraplegic and in the US, people under 60 stare, direct questions to the non-disabled members of the group, and generally show poor manners. I've seen the same bad manners directed towards the deaf and blind.

I think it is really easy for people without disabilities to write stories like this off as her fault for not having a caregiver with her. But the truth is that many, many places are not disability friendly even though (at least in the US and I'd assume in the UK) they are required to be disability friendly by law. And it is a big deal and it does effect us all because all it takes is some bad luck to end up disabled.

So don't bitch when someone needs to use the wheelchair entrance on the bus and teach your children not to point at the different person, it could quite easily be you.
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Liz11685
11/10/08

@clevernamehere: My dad is legally blind, and it really was wonderful that Obama made a shout out to Americans with disabilities in his speech. My dad is, in addition to being an American with disabilities and a disabilities rights activist, on the board as a legal counsel(he's a lawyer) to United Cerebral Palsy in his area too. I'm sure he'll have a field day with this one.

Also, I can totally relate to the people staring and directing questions thing. My dad is blind, but he also has four advanced degrees and has raised 4 kids. It is not necessary to ask his children things in lieu of talking to him directly. (Has happened ALL the time since I was old enough to talk)

I did like the part at the end of the story where they apologized and said it was a mistake. Marks and Spencer is delicious, and I would hate to have to boycott them the next time I'm in the UK.
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Trent 4-EVA
11/10/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
To ALL that read this with no compassion, no twinge of alarm...When I fall out of my wheelchair in front of you, please don't help me up if you feel it might humiliate or degrade you. Because I, alone, sans helper, would rather drag my paralyzed ass home on my elbows than accept your help.
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A Small Turnip
11/10/08

@Mrs. DeLesseps To You, Dahling: No kidding. But if it's okay, would you let me help ya up if you fall? Because I might need your help one day, and I'd sure as hell like to think that you'd lend me a hand if I needed it.

Lean on me, lady. It ain't no thang.
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
11/10/08

@Mrs. DeLesseps To You, Dahling: None of us ever know when we will be the one in need at any given moment on any given day.
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sybann
11/10/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
I am sure it's been said but i don't have any patience left today so: BOYCOTT MUTHAFRACKERS!
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NewsBunny
11/10/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
Why wasn't the British equivalant of 911 called in the first place? Here's a woman with a problems needing help.

If I were a store employee, I'd call and then stay and comfort here, telling her help is on the way.

I don't get this.
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aack
11/10/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
So, did she get stuck because the bathrooms were inaccessible? Because that's what usually happens when the stall is too small/door is too heavy/latch is too high. It is actually required by law that bathrooms meet a minimum standard of accessibility. Otherwise businesses could just say they are for whites/men/"normals" only. See how that works?

Let's not assume she wandered in off the street completely unable to take care of herself and then sat on a toilet wailing for underpaid cafe staff to help her. Yikes. Even so, it's not like able bodied people don't sometimes need help. Besides, nobody said the store employees are required to assist her themselves. Of course it requires special training to move people without hurting one's own back. Of course it would be wrong to expect store staff to be medical providers when a person needs assistance. This is why we have paramedics and others trained to help out in these situations. All the store had to do was ask her what she needed, see if it was reasonable to help her themselves, and if not, contact emergency personnel. That simple.
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Elaken
11/10/08

@aack:

That is the problem - we don't know the whole story. What if she refused 911 being called and thus they had to help her? What if she tried to make them feel like a horrible human being (as some people on here apparently think) for wanting to call for help instead of doing it themselves? We shouldn't always just assume the big bad corporation is in the wrong. Yes, even able bodied people sometimes need help, but the chances of a recurrence with them are small.

They aren't even telling her to come in or always have someone. After they rescinded their ban notice all they are asking is

that wherever possible she is accompanied by someone who would be better equipped to help her if she feels unwell.
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A Small Turnip
11/10/08

@Elaken: This is not about you or your personal phobias. This is about ensuring that all people have equal access to public spaces. Period.
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robot ninja spy
11/10/08

@Elaken and BlakeBadgley: Also, if you think it's embarrassing for you, how do you think she'd feel being in that situation and needing your help in the first place? It's not about "Eff that. They don't pay me enough to help people." People help people all day, every day, for free. If one person is squimish (sp?) it's perfectly reasonable to try to solicit another employee for help, but if no one is willing to just suck it up and help out, that's just assy. As my grandmaa used to say, this could be you one day.
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Pomonarona
11/10/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
Sorry to be a bit peripheral, but am I the only one who is both thrilled and appalled by the word "manageress?" Is that common UK usage?
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A Small Turnip
11/10/08

@Pomonarona: Hee! It is sort of lovely, isn't it? No, you don't hear it all the time, but it's not uncommon. In London hardly ever, but in smaller towns it pops up more often.
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TwiceShy
11/10/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
Mank ind. :(
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Ofmyself
11/10/08

@TwiceShy: hahah jack handy! i guess we will never know the meaning...
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TwiceShy
11/12/08

@Ofmyself: Ha! I didn't check back on this but I'm glad somebody got it.
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STICKSnSCONES
11/10/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
"Our store manager has contacted her in person to reassure her she is welcome in the store.

"As she has a condition that requires specific care that retail staff in M&S or any other store are not trained to provide, we have asked that wherever possible she is accompanied by someone who would be better equipped to help her if she feels unwell."

This is not an unreasonable request.
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Anne is Spiderman
11/10/08

@STICKSnSCONES: I sort of agree with this. I mean, I feel bad for her, but I wouldn't trust the employees at my local department store (many of whom went to grammar school with me) to help me if I had a headcold, let alone something serious.
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clevernamehere
11/10/08

@LizbethAnne: It is a little hard to tell from the post, but it is very, very possible that the issue is their bathroom not being truly accessible rather than her needing someone to help her in an appropriate bathroom.
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Elaken
11/10/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
I don't necessarily have a problem with it. Places should be required to allow access for people with disabilities, not require their staff to be trained to handle the disabilities.

First of all, she looks to be a bit hefty. So you are thinking staff at a coffee shop should be required to possibly go into a bathroom and lift this woman off the toilet, or whatever she needed. Really? I sure as hell would not be willing to do that, I would find that incredibly uncomfortable and not part of my job description. Also what happens if someone strains their back?

She has a disability and that is a shame, but the staff should not be required to deal with it. Having a chaperone is a reasonable request if this is going to be a problem.

Whenever something like this happens everyone immediately attacks the store. As if min. wage employees should be trained and be required to deal with a myriad of things - however humiliating it might be for them.
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
11/10/08

@Elaken: Where do we draw the line? How about pregnant women. They are heavier than normal and could go into labor. When do stores ban them? At 7 months? At 8? Everyone with a cane? A limp? Someone with an eye patch? The blind?

The article said the managers dealt with her in the restroom. I don't think it's beyond the pale to train managers at least in basic situations like this.
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DangerMouse
11/10/08

@Elaken: If you made heftiness a criterion, just think of how many people would never be allowed to shop. It's hard for 350 lb. people who aren't wheelchair-bound to get up from sitting. Fat people: don't come to stores. Old people: don't come unless you can guarantee that you won't break a hip. I mean, shit happens.

I might be a softie, but how do you not help people?
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Elaken
11/10/08

@BrutallyHonestBabes:

And then we start discriminating against the unattractive or the short, right? I hate it when people start using the slippery slope argument.

If I a woman goes into labor you call 911.

I will never agree that it is appropriate to require someone in a coffee shop to be trained to help someone with the bathroom. It is so outside the realm of their job. I think the manager should have called someone and that should be their basic training.

I am doubting it was just that she had problems navigating her wheelchair out. That she was probably on the toilet and needed assistance back to her chair. Why should a manager be trained to do that?
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Shiva-Shakti
11/10/08

@Elaken: You may have a problem with this, but the law is what it is. Write a letter to your congressman/representative if you truly feel people with disabilities should be BANNED from stores.

I am a retail manager and not too long ago I actually cleaned the shit off of an older woman who was clearly dealing with some sort of mental impairment (possibly Alzheimers) and had an accident in the bathroom. Not because I had to, but because decent, caring human beings take care of each other even when it is not convenient for them to do so.

I hope you never have a loved one who suffers from some sort of disability, I sincerely wouldn't want you to be "humiliated" that you have to help them out.
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Penny_Esq
11/10/08

@Elaken: "What happens if someone strains their back?" That's what Workers' Comp is for, although I agree that's a good point that assisting someone in the restroom is above the pay grade of, say in the US, a Wal-Mart employee.
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
11/10/08

@Elaken: Then they should set up a procedure by which the store calls 911 if that's what the store wants. But to ban her or require a babysitter? If you deal with the public, you have to deal with stuff like this. They can have whatever policy they want to - I just hope she and the friends she always met there take their business elsewhere.
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A Small Turnip
11/10/08

@BrutallyHonestBabes: Exactly. It is not unreasonable for floor managers to be trained in basic public safety. Especially not in a large and profitable department store like M&S. We're not talking about a wee three-person boutique here.

Also, that apology? Was bullshit. Seriously. Ms. Curran's lawyers are going to have a field day with this, and rightly so. The UK is a really tough place to get around in if you're in a wheelchair (the old double-decker London buses that you had to leap on to have only recently been retired - they were fun, but a nightmare to get my nana on).

I know the vast majority of people who work at M&S are lovely, decent people, but whoever oversaw this particular debacle needs to be removed. Now. And a donation to CP medical research wouldn't go amiss, either.
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Elaken
11/10/08

@Shiva-Shakti:

I never said people should be BANNED or that a employee or customer shouldn't be allowed to help out of the kindness of their heart. I am also pretty sure the law doesn't say all employees are required to deal with every foreseeable contingency that can arise with someone who has a disability.

I do think if there is a decent chance that you will require assistance than you should have someone with you who is capable of that.

I like the jump from the idea that I would find it embarrassing to have to go in and help a half-naked stranger to the fact that I would be humiliated to help a loved one. That makes total sense. But yes, more than likely if I have a loved one who needs that level of care I will do my best to hire someone so I am not required to do it. I am one of those people who want a soundproof bathroom. I think bodily functions are disgusting and although I would help a loved one I would try to make that unnecessary. To have to do it with a stranger I swear to god would cause me mental distress. So I am sure that makes me a horrible person in your eyes. If as a coffee shop employee I am their only option I would of course do it - but I think it is unfair to make me the only option.

And this was not basic first aid!! It is not like she needed a bandage put on our something. PEOPLE STOP IMPLYING THAT I SAID THINGS I NEVER SAID! I said it is humiliating to have to help a half-naked stranger in the bathroom, not give basic first aid. Being 'trained' to do that would not make it any less so.

As for her being hefty, I was saying that having to lift this woman could hurt employees and now the store is having to pay out workman's comp. My mom is a nurse and even in theory knowing how to lift people she hurts her back all the time when dealing with heavier patients.
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PootyT
11/10/08

@Elaken: it's only humiliating if you're "disgusted by bodily functions." hey, nobody loves 'em, but we all do it. what is there to be disgusted about? i would think that Sue or anyone else in her position would be MUCH more humiliated by this kind of situation than the employees that "had" to help.

it's called decency. ch-ch-ch-check it out.
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PootyT
11/10/08

@BlakeBadgley: not to say that Sue (or any other disabled person) should be humiliated by what she can or cannot do, but hesitation or disgust on the part of the employees would certainly be humiliating.
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robot ninja spy
11/10/08

@BlakeBadgley: Also, what she said.
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cwisto moweina has got yer goat
11/10/08

@Elaken: there, but for the grace of God, go you
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clevernamehere
11/10/08

@Elaken: Lots of things could have happened- the bathroom might not be up to code (trapping her fully clothed or not), she might have fallen. There is no evidence that she regularly needs assistance in the bathroom. The vast majority of wheelchair users don't.

In high school, I worked at CVS and one of our regular customers was blind. She needed someone to go around the store with her and help her with her shopping. I was one of the few people in the store who didn't mind doing it. I actually liked when she came in, it was more fun than shelving. That shopper regularly required assistance, but she shouldn't have to bring someone with her. It was my fucking job to assist customers.

Back to the bathroom- they have the assistance button for a reason. Someone could need an ambulance called. That's all they had to do.

Its fine that helping a half naked person would cause you mental distress, but you have no business saying that anyone would might need help should only go out in public with a helper.
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Red-headed bookworm
11/11/08

@clevernamehere: When I worked in tech support, we had a deaf customer that I would routinely help. I don't know ASL but she would call through a relay service or I would go to her house and help her. We would have to write back and forth, but it worked. I didn't make much money there but it was a locally owne ISP and we wanted to help customers. It made us different from someplace like AOL.

And this case sounds like a one time thing. Are they going to require everyone who ever has any kind of emergency to come in with a chaperone? It sounds like she is fairly independent person and had been a good customer for years.
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Hana Maru
11/10/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
She's gonna sue, right??
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STICKSnSCONES
11/10/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
I really love that the emergency bell is apparently just for show. Like it's the newest thing in trendy bathroom decor.

I wonder if the same goes for the toilet. If you take a dump, do you get banned for that too?
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Jack_Burton
11/11/08

@STICKSnSCONES: Indeed. The customer is always.... Annoying?

Capitalism - UR DOING IT WRONG.

Apologies are never good customer service; Good customer service is knowing that a single satisfied customer may not recommend you to others, but a single upset customer, if not appeased quickly, can close your doors forever.
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
11/10/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
Jeebus. Anyone could be overcome in their store for any reason. Do we all need to shop in packs? If you were in the US, M&S, I'd boycott you forever starting today.
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Penny
11/10/08

@BrutallyHonestBabes: Pft. M&S is like.....JCPenny's. Who needs 'em?? Although I do like their food hall.
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metoometoo
11/10/08

In reply to Shop At Your Own Risk
Um...wouldn't it maybe be worth mentioning that the linked article explains that the trespass order was issued by mistake, and that the store manager contacted the woman to apologize and "reassure her she is welcome in the store"?
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Sukie in the Graveyard
11/10/08

@metoometoo: that would be a good follow-up.

But how was that type of mistake made? Was that once policy? Or was the person responsible for the letter acting on their own (and thus fired)?
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Eeva
11/10/08

@metoometoo: I think it was issued by "mistake", actually. Their bullshit apology isn't really the issue here.

And she's only welcome in the store with a chaperone.
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brendastarlet is on it
11/10/08

@metoometoo: was the manager fired? I don't want to have to boycot M&S, they make the world's best wine gums, but this riles me up.
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STICKSnSCONES
11/10/08

@metoometoo: Quite noteworthy. Especially for those of us who failed to read the actual article.
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Hana Maru
11/10/08

@brendastarlet: By that d'you mean wine flavored chewing gum?
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
11/10/08

@STICKSnSCONES: I read it all - and it doesn't make a difference to me. The "apology" is BS stemming from bad publicity and she has to be chaperoned in the store.
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amenfro
11/10/08

@metoometoo: It's probably time for some sensitivity training up in that M&S.
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Penny_Esq
11/10/08

@HanaMaru: They're like jujubees. Except wine flavored. Delish!
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Saltine
11/10/08

@Penny_Esq: YES WE DID!!!: You have wine flavored jujubees there? Thats amazing
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hellosunshine
11/10/08

@Penny_Esq: YES WE DID!!!: All the more reason for me to live in the UK. I'm heading to our friendly neighborhood British grocery tomorrow for some more Jaffa Cakes and Walkers.

So have we determined whether or not M&S employs complete wankers?
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