Jezebel 
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New York, 10:34 AM
Thu Nov 12
67 posts in the last 24 hours
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I know that Aristotle was an intelligent fellow.... I guess.... but I'm so glad I learned, before today, that he was a misogynist ass who made a terrible influence on society.
I'm sure there are more things to be said than that on the subject of Aristotle/ misogyny/ patriarchy but all I can say at the moment is "misogynist ass". #themarveloushairygirls
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None of that even comes close to the reality what these girls faced as they lived during that time, with that condition. I can't wait to read it. #themarveloushairygirls
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10/30/09
That was a lot of "uns". I just really love her art. #themarveloushairygirls
10/01/09
10/01/09
Here in Australia, I had no idea of any of the hair stereotypes mentioned about black women's hair. Angry hair, political hair, whatever.
How the hell do you know what someone's hair is saying unless they tell you? I would assume it's just hair. Regardless of their race.
A serious question,is this mostly an american issue?
10/02/09
On second thought, you may want to do some reading before you even do that.
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diclaimer: Not trying to get disemvowled here nor I am trying to knock anyone down. I just feel that these types of statements that are showing up create some disconnet/discord when discussing this so I'd like to get to the root.
10/01/09
People always bring their own experiences to a discussion. This isn't any different.
10/01/09
10/01/09
I do notice that on Jezebel we are kinder to men who come in and sort of apologetically give their two cents about their girlfriend or sister but are quick to pounce on caucasian women for being naive or dismissive (or who we assume is caucasian, since it's not always revealed – which probably says a lot about us, that we assume people are white 'til they state otherwise, just as on other sites posters are assumed male until they state otherwise).
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10/01/09
It's not the same AT ALL. They don't relate AT ALL. How many women of color have to say this?
If you feel like it's belittling to your experience for a white woman (or any other skin color besides black) to express her understanding of your situation, then how can that situation ever change?
Constant and stubborn derailing is a pretty mockable offense. White women goes nuts when men do it, then turn right back around and do it to black women. And then you're shocked - SHOCKED! - if we're anything other than warm of heart because you're "trying" to understand. If that's your idea of support, God knows I'd rather have your disdain.
"Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will." Dr. King
10/01/09
10/01/09
I'm a white woman, and I know that I was guilty of this same thought process before I really, really understood that just because my hair is a ungodly mess and takes all kinds of manipulation to get it to do anything at all, does not mean that "I get" what it's like to to be a black woman (or man) with black hair. It came at the same time that I finally "got" what it meant to have white privilege, heterosexual privilege, etc. I'm glad it finally clicked, because it feels more authentic than having these knee-jerk reactions that wound up being really, really ignorant, and left me feeling bad about myself as a participant in the world.
Thinking about my own discovery experience, I also imagine that there is some discomfort about being part of the majority culture and having to admit that you can't imagine, even if you try your hardest, what it would be like to be part of a minority group in America. In some sense, it's much easier to say "Well...my hair's hard to manage too, so we're not that different" than to acknowledge the difference. In the end it winds up being dismissive and insensitive, even if it wasn't intentional. There's strength, growth, and wisdom in acknowledging our differences and actually listening to the stories of those with different experiences, rather than trying to pretend they're not there.
Sorry for the length. Brevity is not my strong suit. In retrospect, I hope you weren't asking a rhetorical question...
10/01/09
10/01/09
People with the power of the majority (I make the distinction so that mixed people can be included in the discussion) can get terribly defensive.
Since I've found the defensiveness to be a remarkably consistent thread, irrespective of whether the actual issue is Black womens' hair, or Patricia Wrede's book, or GatesGate, I usually refer them here
[www.google.com]
to see if, when as "majority race" people, they say they want to understand, or be educated, they're really serious.
10/01/09
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It's one thing to empathize by saying "Shit...that must be really hard" and saying "Oh I totally know how you feel" (I'm exaggerating the difference and not implying that you do these things--I don't know you at all). I think many people are afraid to acknowledge the discomfort of actually addressing the differences/privilege that come with being in the majority status, so they use "Me too!" as a way to wash away the difference.
10/01/09
I'm not sure about this "reach out and touch" thing. So you have this impulse to reach out and touch everything that looks soft and interesting? People's hair isn't like clothing on a rack. Touch away, in the case of the latter. What right do you have to touch another person's hair because you, personally, find it soft and interesting?
10/01/09
Then if it's rude by your own admission, why do you keep doing it??
NG: "But... my issues with my hair are what make me able to understand the situation in general."
But everyone here already KNOWS about those issues, because all-white is the majority culture.
What I think people are saying here is that you don't have to GIVE your opinion when other people are trying to offer a different perspective. You can JUST. LISTEN.
NG: "Are you really saying that no one but a black woman can possibly have an opinion about black women's issues?"
No.
But how about if you stop trying to OFFER and INSERT your opinion and JUST. LISTEN.
It never ceases to boggle my mind how majority women can tell men who insist on constantly butting into feminist discussions with their own opinion to JUST LISTEN but *completely fail* to see how that same directive might still apply when other women are talking.
Does this make it clearer? At all?
10/01/09
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10/01/09
On the other hand, from a purely cosmetic stand point (and I understand that bringing it down to tangible, touchable hair and products is part of the problem), telling, say, a curly-haired Asian woman who spends thousands on straightening or a Jewish woman who relaxes and bleaches her hair that they couldn't possibly understand what it's like for black women who feel the need to conform and therefore can't contribute anything but sympathy is pretty dismissive.
10/01/09
This.
I used your own quotes.
Just think about that for a minute.
(Note: "Think" does NOT mean "I am compulsively required to respond.")
10/01/09
*rolleyes*
10/01/09
No matter what the outer manifestation of the issue -- hair, GatesGate, SciFi, cultural appropriation -- the defensive/denial reponse remains the same.
All I ever request is that people read before opening their mouths, as opposed to just reflexively jumping in and yapping on.
I reiterate, majority women do tend to see it when men do it. They don't see that they themselves are doing it when other women are talking.
IMO, it's a dominant assumption of privileged culture that no matter what the topic at hand, people just HAVE to hear your opinion.
10/01/09
[www.google.com]
The links on allies, response, and derailing may interest you particularly.
Also, this:
www.derailingfordummies.com
Because none of what she said or how she said it is new. It's been seen, said, and done before.
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EDUCATE YOURSELF. It is not the job of black people to relieve you of your ignorance.
10/01/09
You can start here:
[www.google.com]
10/01/09
Translation: It's YOUR job to make sure I'M not racist! Why don't you people make things better for me?
Some discussion NEEDS to be shut down. No wonder women of color shun feminism in mass droves.
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10/01/09
First, if you actually read my comment to you, I said none of that.
Way to be defensive, jump to conclusions, and prove the point, though.
(Also, neither of us knows what race -- or mix of races -- the other is, or what privilege the other one might be carrying, do they? A lot of assumptions here?)
10/01/09
You told a poster she didn't have to give her (yes, naive) perspective she should just listen. It would be helpful if posters knew, ahead of time, whose opinion was valid in every discussion. So no Jewish women in posts about Jewish women, no lesbians in posts about heterosexuality, and so forth.
Lord knows there's been no problem shutting people down before based on stupid comments or unpopular views, but for the most part they aren't told they shouldn't bother writing in at all. (Disemvowelling is another story.)
10/01/09
10/01/09
Are you comparing black women feeling excluded from feminism to men not wanting to be a part of feminism?
Seriously?
10/01/09
I think she should also watch her tone. I'm feeling attacked. ;-)
10/01/09
For the most part, I have enjoyed the content of this thread and really enjoyed the documentary itself. This specific mixing of threads, of hair touching and people's attempts to educate others without knowing their background, somewhat less.
Here is a recent one: [jezebel.com]
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And the amount of product it takes to have "natural" hair? Takes me just as long to wear it natural as it does to wear it straight.
Cosign! If you want to go natural, great. I would suggest the "big chop". But anybody who tries to convince you that it's so easy and more convenient than permed hair is a damn lie. It takes me nearly 90 minutes and THREE big bath towels just to wash and dry my hair.
10/01/09
*In my area of the south, this was the case. By no means am I saying that all black women share my background.
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Preach it.
And the Carol's Daughter Honey Hair Mimosa stuff is great for hair like ours.
10/01/09
09/30/09
09/30/09
I think that my appreciation for afros is wildly affected by the cultural cues that black women's hair--all women's hair, really--signify. I always hated my hair because people thought I was dumb, and silly, and would really really like boys. Indeed, I am smart, mean, and have been called a man hater more times than I can count. Afros do look mean to me--not mean, really, but more like bad-ass. Afros say, "I wear my hair this way and refuse to submit to racist rules about what is appropriate and what isn't." It is not cool for me to ascribe complex attitudes towards society and self to someone because of their fucking hair. It's fucking racist, actually. But as much as I am annoyed and disheartened by my own response, I cannot deny that I have always and will always think that afros look bad ass. I value, highly, the cultural signification afros have, and it's well nigh impossible, at this point, for me to suss out what's attractive to me because of fucked up stereotypes, and what would exist in a world in which our hair did not affect our ability to get hired.
Here's the other thing, though--I totally cut my hair short in order to signify something about myself (ie I'm not barbie). Lots of people are attracted to fashion because it's a way to express one's self, etc. Isn't hair the same way? Can we ever fully divorce a hairstyle from cultural meaning? I am uncomfortable with the implication of associating a certain style (long, short, pink, blue, weave, natural) with personality traits or preferences. But I'm also uncomfortable with the idea that what we wear makes a statement about who we are--so I tend to skip the "fashion" posts on Jezebel.
Obviously, the above paragraph must be tempered by the understanding that problems with black women's hair especially, and other races' women's hair to a lesser but still significant extent, are currently inscribed in racist, sexist, classist ways. So an afro means you're an angry black lady, long blonde hair means you're a dumb barbie doll, red hair means you're a devil child, etc. The big problem with hair and style now is how incredibly biased they are against marginalized groups, and how they perpetuate these bigoted stereotypes, and affect people's ability to get hired. But can we keep the idea of hair "as a statement" without continuing to uphold the fucked uped-ness that comes with the statements hairstyles can make? Or do we need to retire the idea of style and be all Star Trek: TNG until the revolution is done with, then when all the shitty -isms of the world are dead we can get back to inscribing meaning into hairstyles?
09/30/09
You can, but you would be wrong. Unless you LIKE the idea of being seen as dirty, unkempt and threatening just because you wear your hair in its natural state, and you LIKE the idea of being threatened with unemployment because you don't wish to burn or fry your hair straight, or you LIKE names like "African booty scratcher", "Ubangi", and "pickaninny".
Afros say, "I wear my hair this way and refuse to submit to racist rules about what is appropriate and what isn't."
Funny...that's not what my Afro is telling you. Perhaps you should stop taking your cues from Soul Cinema Sundays, jive turkey.
10/01/09
10/01/09
"Funny...that's not what my Afro is telling you. Perhaps you should stop taking your cues from Soul Cinema Sundays, jive turkey."
I'm sorry--this was the point I was attempting to make. That various signifiers have meanings ascribed to them, and then we ascribe those meanings to those things. So an afro "says" something in our culture, just like a miniskirt says something, or glasses say something, or having a dog instead of a cat. They all have these arbitrary meanings, but as a part of the culture, as a person who has been told what the meanings of various things are, I reflexively interpret these things as their meanings, even though that's ridiculous.
And by the grass is greener thing, I meant that by saying that I think [x], in this case afros, is aesthetically pleasing to me, I have put that thing and myself in a fantasy world, in which [x] is nice simply because I think it's nice, and in which [x] has no drawbacks because I don't know about them. A far, far less consequential example is someone who always wanted glasses, but never realized that if you have glasses they'll fog up in the winter in a very annoying way.
So, even though I knew, inasmuch as a white person can know anything about the black experience, that is to say not actually knowing as much as attempting to learn, process, and understand, that there are significant negative consequences of afros, I still thought/think that afros are cool looking. The one black girl in my high school who had an afro had, in my opinion, the best hair in the school. It wasn't until my original comment that I realized that that particular trait of mine was probably, especially because I am white and therefore subject to lots of racism*, white privilege, and unintentional, unrecognized, and internalized racist assumptions of any non-white people, deeply effected by what I saw signified in her hair--what it signified to the dominant culture, of which I have been raised.
So now what?** It's not like recognizing that my aesthetic sensibilities have been affected by--maybe entirely the result of--racist attributions and assumptions, makes me think afros aren't cool. So how do I react to recognizing this particular strain of racism in my self? Even if the result is a relative positive--I think afros are cool-- it's the result of and inevitably perpetuating a racist stereotype of black women and hair, and even if I find that stereotype (or the vague form of it that's subconsciously affecting my tastes) valuable or attractive, it isn't good to be partaking in these cultural codes. If I reflexively and subconsciously associate afros with Angry Black Lady, but then I associate Angry Black Lady with things that are good***, then even if I think both subjects are good, which subverts the dominant code of those two things as bad or whatever, it's still working on the assumption that Angry Black Lady exists outside of the imaginations of angry American right-wing conservative activists. Like, say, in my imagination. Even if I recognize that that is totally fucked up and racist and also really stupid. It's just--I don't think, for me, recognizing that makes it go away from my brain. Just like thinking that my life would be better if I was skinnier doesn't go away from my brain even though I know that's fucked up and incorrect, or catholic morality doesn't go away from my brain just because I've decided that I don't believe in god.
[...and this version is not as good as the first, and is a lot longer. Sorry.]
*not racism like subject to racism against white people, but to being a member of the dominant class, which has not only left me with the white privilege that I have in the world but has constituted me as a white person who has white privilege even if suddenly everybody was blind and we couldn't see race, a privilege which inevitably makes me racist in a thousand thousand ways merely by virtue of being a white person who was taught that she was white.
**Rhetorical questions, though feel free to chime in if you have thoughts. But I recognize that dealing with my racism is my responsibility, and expecting anyone to answer these questions for me is both lazy and privileged.
***I love any angry lady, actually.
10/01/09
10/01/09
Then stop, or at least make a conscious effort to. It doesn't get any simpler than that. That soliloquy you just spent all that time writing could've been spent asking yourself why you associate a hairstyle with a very unflattering stereotype. This is a depiction that has long hurt black women - in the media, at work, dating...my God, we're the very reason why the "tone" argument exists. Even worse, you justify your thinking with "well, I think Angry Black Women" are cool, as if anybody should give a shit, let alone the women you're fetishizing.
If I told you that I associate blond hair with dick-sucking white bimbos who have a fetish for big black dicks, wouldn't you tell me to go to hell? If I justified my douchebag theory with "well, that's just what I'm conditioned to think", wouldn't you tell me to pull my head out of my ass? I certainly hope you would.
When I go into work tomorrow, I have to wonder if the new boss I'll be seeing DOES equate my hair with being some kind of jive talking pseudo-revolutionary that secretly hates The Man. I have to worry about whether he'll tell me that my hair is out of dress code - which the powers that be like to do in places where dress codes are common. If I choose to wrap it in a head scarf instead, I get to worry if they'll make me take it off, making some stupid claim about headgear. I get to worry about whether I'll hear things like "chill out, girlfriend!" or "you people are so senstive" or "calm down, Omarosa!" or a long list of shit you couldn't think off if I paid you to try, things that I hear all of the fucking time, things that I either have to swallow to keep the peace or speak out and bring unwanted eyes upon me. Best of all, I get to wonder if I'll be deemed the Angry Black Woman - that character you love so much - because I'm not changing or taking off or ignoring jack shit. Privilege is a wonderful thing. You admit that you've put yourself in a fantasy world. I can't even imagine what that's like if I wanted to. Keep that in mind when you're justifying your way of thinking. And Google the Sapphire stereotype while you're at it and see just how flattering it truly is.
10/01/09
"Then stop, or at least make a conscious effort to. It doesn't get any simpler than that. That soliloquy you just spent all that time writing could've been spent asking yourself why you associate a hairstyle with a very unflattering stereotype."
Uh, clearly that's what she is doing - examining her own head for unthinking racisms and picking them apart. Race is a complicated thing, and she's owning her place of privilege and working out the issues of race that most white people are never obliged to confront. Screaming at her while she's trying to work these things out only encourages her to be silent, to push the difficult problems under again, because it's safer to not think about them and just let them lie unexamined where they continue to do damage.
(said as a biracial girl who looks white so gets the short ends of both fucking sticks when it comes to discussion of race)
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10/01/09
It was probably inappropriate to bring this up here, in public and more specifically in this thread, when I should have been dealing with it personally. I genuinely am sorry, both for the fact that I am inadvertently contributing to the shit in the world and for the fact that I dropped it here and offended you. Please accept my apology, if you want to, or not, if you don't want to. And thank you for your help.
10/01/09
So, can you explain what else she has to do before she is examining her privilege to an acceptable degree?
10/01/09
Then you'll jizz in your pants over my outright dismissing. Cimorene ASKED me for my opinion and I gave it to her.
10/01/09
I would just caution you to remember that even "positive" stereotypes (e.g. "but I LOVE angry black women") are harmful, and can read as really condescending.
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