It seems like looking at marriage practices from times past is always strange (this book is a little more than strange...).
Love is love, sex is sex, money is money. But marriage has represented all these things and more. At times the ideal has been to marry for love, or to marry to move up in life, to make an advantageous power-play for the sake of your family. To keep the family name going within itself. Now it seems the ideal is to marry for love, but also to seek all fulfillment from the person you marry - you're supposed to find your "soul mate." It's funny, isn't it, that it's just another arrangement that we've told ourselves is the one right choice, when we've had several "right choices" throughout history and across cultures?
I'm not advocating for a return to marriage where women were treated like property, but I do think it's interesting to see how much the expectations of marriage have changed across time. In some ways, it seems like there would be less pressure if we weren't encouraged to find "THE ONE" and live "HAPPILY EVER AFTER" only to have our dreams shattered when we find our expectations were set too high. #whenyoumarry
The notion wives should be a 'useless ornament' actually dates back to the Victorian Era. It was considered a status symbol to have a wife that had no skills and did no work. Servants cooked and cleaned and raised the children, while the husband 'brought home the bacon'. The Victorian wife was just expected to be lovely and embroider and draw and condescend to the poor....and have no marketable job skills or earn a wage. Before that women were in all the trades and did just about every job there was but heavy plowing. (Even though I have heard and have seen women being used as a mule to pull a plow so they did that job too.) Before the Victorian Era, with exception to the titled, most women were expected to be able to farm or garden, preserve food and seed, cook, clean, raise animals for meat and cloth (along with butchering them), spin wool into yarn, weave it, sew it into clothes and bedding, chop fire wood, keep the fire going, raise and educate the children, and help out their husband in whatever trade they made their living at.
The 50's housewife 'tradition' is just a re-tread of that rather Victorian ideal. #whenyoumarry
@Vulcan Has No Moon: Yes, thank you. And in fact in the pre-depression era there was a mini-cultural revolution of its own sorts. After all that was the era woman cut their hair, decided wearing twenty undergarments stunk and often worked outside of the home in a variety of jobs. I've seen quite a few interesting pre-code films that actually dealt with the idea of the bored rich housewife that didn't like being an ornament and plenty of literature of the day followed suit.
It was more "what work was good for each gender" that ruled the day as opposed to "women shouldn't work."
It was really the generation after WW2 that decided it needed to go back to a "simpler time" that never really existed. #whenyoumarry
That eugenics chart just made me gasp out loud. The scientist in me is laughing uproariously at the idea that skin color is a single gene trait. The human being in me is just plain old horrified. #whenyoumarry
@girlwithoutahero: to clarify, it is horrible. But I keep it on the bookshelf because the title spine alone sets fear in the eyes of boys #whenyoumarry
OK, deep breath because I am going to admit something I have only admitted to one other person.
I've been married to my husband for 10+ years and sometimes the thought of sex with him really is revolting. Not all the time, just sometimes. Am I a terrible wife? #whenyoumarry
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I have never been married but my thought is no - you aren't. Sex is such an intimate act (and if I actually think about it, a little on the gross side) that I can see sometimes it just isn't very appealing depending on life circumstances. #whenyoumarry
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I hope not. I think that long term partners have a way of being over-intimate that can only lead to revulsion. I can't talk to you about your constipation problems, pick up your socks for the 5,000th time, and want to make with the sexy all the time. Nature of the beast. #whenyoumarry
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: Nup. You're just a person with feelings. I guess one question I'd ask is, is the thought of sex WITH HIM or the the thought of SEX with him the revolting part? Not that that determines whether you're terrible. Basically, if it worries you, try to talk it over with a therapist and work out why you're feeling that way and what you could do about it. #whenyoumarry
@kiwibelle: There are moments when sex of any kind, with any person, seems revolting. It's not that different from hunger--sometimes eating your favorite food(for example) almost makes you want to puke. #whenyoumarry
@Elaken: Oh thank goodness. Growing up with my father I was constantly bombarded with the male pov. I heard constant complaining from his buddies about frigid wives and lack of sex. So I am very self conscience about it.
I love my husband. We have sex quite often but sometimes the thought of sexual intimacy is actually disgusting. I feel kind of awful about this but the one other person I spoke to it about (also married 10+) said she feels the same way sometimes. It isn't personal. #whenyoumarry
@lavendermint: This is a fantastic point. It's been so long since I've been single that I unthinkingly assumed that all single people want sex all the time. #whenyoumarry
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: No. I've been married four months (together 6+) and I occasionally feel the same way. Sex drive is so hormone and emotionally driven, I don't think it has anything to do with him, or with me. #whenyoumarry
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: Married almost seven years. There are times of the month where my attitude is "OK, we can do it, but don't put your face near my face." I think as long as you don't feel like that all of the time, you're fine.
It's easy to forget that for women, sex drive really is cyclical, whereas men's is fairly constant. For some reason, we tend to just assume that women have a low sex drive and then we read all of those awful magazine articles about how to "fix" it. Yuck. #whenyoumarry
I think that graph looks like a dinosaur and consequently feel like this view gives the graph more creedence (maybe it's because I was weaned later). Love Experiece! Chomp Chomp Chomp... #whenyoumarry
I did a lot of found footage work with Duvall-Hill film strips (there's at least one that goes along with this curriculum).
I have a weird fascination with them. I find them interesting and kind of hate that they get thrown into the "wacky news" category, when they're this cool little peek into social controls of the past. It's like letters from Big Brother. Maybe I'm just a geek about source material type stuff.
If you're looking for more fun go to archive.org and search for "Boys Beware!" to learn about the homosexual and his disease.
Breamworthy promoted this comment
Edited by Lizard in the Wires now with even MORE metal in the face! at 10/21/09 7:16 PM
Lizard in the Wires now with even MORE metal in the face! was starred
Lizard in the Wires now with even MORE metal in the face! was unstarred
I have a DVD series-- The Educational Archives-- that has all those old film clips. I got it after being captivated by the hygiene films that MST3K used to mock. One that I remember vividly was about the importance of having good posture, and that you should have a "posture pal" at school to help each other remind to stand up straight. #whenyoumarry
@formergr: lol I've seen that one! I've seen SO many of them. A lot of times when random places (especially Colbert Report and Daily Show) use stock 50's footage I can name the strip it was from. #whenyoumarry
@Sunshineyness: I've seen that one too. That one is more of a time capsule of teen car culture, and how much more trusting people were (because you lived in the suburbs where it was "safe" to babysit for total strangers). #whenyoumarry
@curiousgeorgiana: i think the subtle message this particular totally scientific flow chart is conveying is that if you marry outside your race your kids will look like African masks. #whenyoumarry
Late, but anyway, The Times today is reporting that Nicholas Hughes' depression seemed to have been triggered by his father's death. Not that it disproves the genetics thing, but still: [entertainment.timesonline.co.uk]
This is a topic that drives me nuts and I'm sensitive about it, so I'm sorry if I come off as ranting and hysterical.
It is no one's business why I do not want to have children. That said, genetics is a huge part of it (there are a lot of other reasons, but they are not important here). I find it painful, insulting and uplifting that so many commenters seem to not have the same experiences that my family did. It's painful because it's a reminder of what happened, insulting because I feel like judgment is cast on me for my choices (hello, hypersensitivity!) and uplifting because it means it probably didn't happen to you.
Two of my sisters died of a incurable genetic disorder. I may or may not be a carrier for it. I more than likely am. I do not care how small the chances are of having a child with the disorder - my sisters were small chances, too. There will not be any likely advances in this particular disorder - it's very rare and while research has and is being done, there are very few treatments available, much less a cure. I do not care if I "should" or "should not" worry. I watched my youngest sister suffer through a debilitating disorder and die. I saw what it did to the people around me (and obviously me, too), and I cannot go through that again. I cannot imagine anything more painful than watching someone you love suffer and die, knowing you can't do anything to help them.
I was called selfish once for this attitude. The girl told me that "even if he lives for only six years, he has still lived!" Fuck that. I don't need to have a child biologically. I don't care if I'm "denying" some child a life or if "all families pass down something, so [I] should stop worrying". Some people can handle these odds. They are stronger people than I, because I can't. And I shouldn't have to. Knowing what the possibilities are and knowing your own limits (or guessing, since you can't really know) can change your mind. Maybe adoption is a better answer. Maybe it's not. But I think genetics is a strong reason to not have biological children, and there is nothing stupid or shameful about using that to make a choice.
I pretty much expect my kid(s) to be at least as fucked up as I am. I test very, very high on Asperger-rating scales, though I haven't been formally evaluated because I'm terrified of the idea of what that could do to potential careers and, hey, I must have some sort of coping skills if I'm 24 and undiagnosed, right? I've struggled off and on with extreme anxiety, probably related to my nonstop brain, since my teens, and had some situational depressions related to my anxious, frothy states ("Why can't I calm down? This is crazy! No one else is this overworked over nothing!" spirals downwards into sleeping 15+ hours a day). I see elements of all of these things in both of my parents. I am truly the sum of their faults.
In the other gene pool, my girlfriend is a bundle of depression related largely to, in my pre-med-school opinion, endo. She scores higher than average, though thankfully not quite as ridiculously high as I do, on autism-rating scales, and has some social anxiety that is largely due to her mother holding her back because she has CP. Her family has a number of genetic diseases present (various cancers, mostly).
Our kids are screwed no matter which of us carries--plus if she carries, there's the known risk of bedrest/early birth.
I know that I'm somewhat afraid that my kids will inherit some of my solitary/taciturn/isolating tendencies. I'm about a 99% introvert on any scale, and while I don't think it hinders my emotional or intellectual development, I do think we introverts are not as successful in the social component of life. The world discriminates against introversion, hence my fear.
On the other hand, some of the best writing/scientific discoveries/art has come out of introverts. You don't exactly congeniate well with labs, beakers, and typewriters (okay, computers, but it doesn't sound as cool) when you lean towards extroversion. So I guess the world needs all kinds, and nobody is free from bad character tendencies that we wish we didn't have to pass on to the next generation.
I come from a long, long line of addicts and depressives, with some endometriosis thrown in for good measure, and I have (so far) managed to dodge most of those bullets. I want very badly to reach out to all of you and give you the love and support you deserve, but of course I can't.
So instead, I hope that what you're taking from this post is how entirely not alone you are, and that there are options for help and a healthy life.
@ellaesther: You're a sweetheart. Thanks, dear. I think if more people talked about the history of angst in families, it would be a lot less stigmatized. But then there would be no soap operas, so hmm.
@lalaland13: Well, while I acknowledge that the loss of soap operas would be a real blow, think how many more comedies there would be!
I honestly think that this kind of sharing is what is best about the Internet. These are the kinds of conversations that were all but impossible, absent a designated support group, throughout the vast majority of human history.
10/22/09
Love is love, sex is sex, money is money. But marriage has represented all these things and more. At times the ideal has been to marry for love, or to marry to move up in life, to make an advantageous power-play for the sake of your family. To keep the family name going within itself. Now it seems the ideal is to marry for love, but also to seek all fulfillment from the person you marry - you're supposed to find your "soul mate." It's funny, isn't it, that it's just another arrangement that we've told ourselves is the one right choice, when we've had several "right choices" throughout history and across cultures?
I'm not advocating for a return to marriage where women were treated like property, but I do think it's interesting to see how much the expectations of marriage have changed across time. In some ways, it seems like there would be less pressure if we weren't encouraged to find "THE ONE" and live "HAPPILY EVER AFTER" only to have our dreams shattered when we find our expectations were set too high. #whenyoumarry
10/21/09
The 50's housewife 'tradition' is just a re-tread of that rather Victorian ideal. #whenyoumarry
10/22/09
It was more "what work was good for each gender" that ruled the day as opposed to "women shouldn't work."
It was really the generation after WW2 that decided it needed to go back to a "simpler time" that never really existed. #whenyoumarry
10/22/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
I've been married to my husband for 10+ years and sometimes the thought of sex with him really is revolting. Not all the time, just sometimes. Am I a terrible wife? #whenyoumarry
10/21/09
Just to clarify I mean about a week before the event and the week after I totally am NOT in the mood.
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
I love my husband. We have sex quite often but sometimes the thought of sexual intimacy is actually disgusting. I feel kind of awful about this but the one other person I spoke to it about (also married 10+) said she feels the same way sometimes. It isn't personal. #whenyoumarry
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
It's easy to forget that for women, sex drive really is cyclical, whereas men's is fairly constant. For some reason, we tend to just assume that women have a low sex drive and then we read all of those awful magazine articles about how to "fix" it. Yuck. #whenyoumarry
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
it appears this 50's suburban WASPs did as well! #whenyoumarry
10/21/09
I have a weird fascination with them. I find them interesting and kind of hate that they get thrown into the "wacky news" category, when they're this cool little peek into social controls of the past. It's like letters from Big Brother. Maybe I'm just a geek about source material type stuff.
If you're looking for more fun go to archive.org and search for "Boys Beware!" to learn about the homosexual and his disease.
10/21/09
I have a DVD series-- The Educational Archives-- that has all those old film clips. I got it after being captivated by the hygiene films that MST3K used to mock. One that I remember vividly was about the importance of having good posture, and that you should have a "posture pal" at school to help each other remind to stand up straight. #whenyoumarry
10/21/09
10/22/09
BTW, the "Girls Beware!" rebuttal is all sorts of horrific (though not about lesbianism) as well.
I got a collection of cult classics off of Amazon a bit back and it was a great collection of awesome scare films from the 30's-50's.
10/22/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
03/25/09
03/24/09
It is no one's business why I do not want to have children. That said, genetics is a huge part of it (there are a lot of other reasons, but they are not important here). I find it painful, insulting and uplifting that so many commenters seem to not have the same experiences that my family did. It's painful because it's a reminder of what happened, insulting because I feel like judgment is cast on me for my choices (hello, hypersensitivity!) and uplifting because it means it probably didn't happen to you.
Two of my sisters died of a incurable genetic disorder. I may or may not be a carrier for it. I more than likely am. I do not care how small the chances are of having a child with the disorder - my sisters were small chances, too. There will not be any likely advances in this particular disorder - it's very rare and while research has and is being done, there are very few treatments available, much less a cure. I do not care if I "should" or "should not" worry. I watched my youngest sister suffer through a debilitating disorder and die. I saw what it did to the people around me (and obviously me, too), and I cannot go through that again. I cannot imagine anything more painful than watching someone you love suffer and die, knowing you can't do anything to help them.
I was called selfish once for this attitude. The girl told me that "even if he lives for only six years, he has still lived!" Fuck that. I don't need to have a child biologically. I don't care if I'm "denying" some child a life or if "all families pass down something, so [I] should stop worrying". Some people can handle these odds. They are stronger people than I, because I can't. And I shouldn't have to. Knowing what the possibilities are and knowing your own limits (or guessing, since you can't really know) can change your mind. Maybe adoption is a better answer. Maybe it's not. But I think genetics is a strong reason to not have biological children, and there is nothing stupid or shameful about using that to make a choice.
03/24/09
In the other gene pool, my girlfriend is a bundle of depression related largely to, in my pre-med-school opinion, endo. She scores higher than average, though thankfully not quite as ridiculously high as I do, on autism-rating scales, and has some social anxiety that is largely due to her mother holding her back because she has CP. Her family has a number of genetic diseases present (various cancers, mostly).
Our kids are screwed no matter which of us carries--plus if she carries, there's the known risk of bedrest/early birth.
03/24/09
On the other hand, some of the best writing/scientific discoveries/art has come out of introverts. You don't exactly congeniate well with labs, beakers, and typewriters (okay, computers, but it doesn't sound as cool) when you lean towards extroversion. So I guess the world needs all kinds, and nobody is free from bad character tendencies that we wish we didn't have to pass on to the next generation.
03/24/09
I come from a long, long line of addicts and depressives, with some endometriosis thrown in for good measure, and I have (so far) managed to dodge most of those bullets. I want very badly to reach out to all of you and give you the love and support you deserve, but of course I can't.
So instead, I hope that what you're taking from this post is how entirely not alone you are, and that there are options for help and a healthy life.
03/24/09
03/24/09
I honestly think that this kind of sharing is what is best about the Internet. These are the kinds of conversations that were all but impossible, absent a designated support group, throughout the vast majority of human history.
03/24/09