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posts about #googlehascachedyou more → Dan Savage Has Stopped Blaming Black Voters For Prop 8
New York, 7:49 PM
Tue Nov 10
74 posts in the last 24 hours
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Dan Savage Has Stopped Blaming Black Voters For Prop 8 |
Original material is licensed under a Creative Commons License permitting non-commercial sharing with attribution.
11/12/08
11/12/08
it really hurts - especially coming from within my own family...
and while I didn't like Dan Savage's article and I felt he was playing the blame game... he stated FACTS that I personally know to be true.
If I lived in California, I would have voted against Prop 8............
11/12/08
"And please note: My original post described black homophobia as a big problem for all gays and lesbians, whatever their color. This isn't about African Americans beating up on gay white men and women; African American gays and lesbians are the ones who suffer the most from African American homophobia.
And I was asked why I didn't go after, say, the Mormon Church, which bankrolled this thing: I have written numerous posts slamming the Mormon Church and the Catholic Church, as any regular reader of Slog would be aware."
This sounds pretty reasonable to me. And, while I agree that DS can say dickish things sometimes, he strikes me as completely honest and authentic. And in an age of PR experts and carefully constructed public personae, I find him refreshing even when I disagree with him. For that, at least, he's won my respect.
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I don't assume you meant it that way. I'm just sayin'
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11/12/08
Give me a break. News Flash, Fat can be healthy. In fact over 1/2 of all fat people are perfectly healthy.
You need FA 101.
11/12/08
Dan Savage is a jerk, but he's a jerk that I respect because he doesn't beat around the bush. (Not a lady bush, anyway.)
11/12/08
Secondly, I am referring to the article in USA today. Which this quote comes from,
In the study, about 51 percent of overweight adults, or roughly 36 million people nationwide, had mostly normal levels of blood pressure, cholesterol, blood fats called triglycerides and blood sugar.
You mention that only 20% of obese people between the ages of 50-64 were considered healthy. I am wondering what percentage of normal weight people are considered healthy in that age range. That statistic wasn't mentioned in the article, and I have a feeling that number goes down drastically as age increases. The truth is, no matter our weight we get less healthy as we get older. There is a difference between correlation and causation.
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Notice also that your pet study cites blood pressure, cholesterol, triglycerides and blood sugar. It does not mention other factors such as bone density or HDL levels. It's working on a very limited scope. Until I see the source study without the "armchair scientist" spin that popular magazines put on it (out of necessity, because most people don't want to read an original health journal report), it's not a great source.
Look, there's enough hate being perpetuated already between women over their looks. Good luck with your fat acceptance movement, and I'm not trying to snark here. I disagree with you, but as always, your choices are yours to make and there are bound to be people who disagree.
11/12/08
11/12/08
I appreciate that you would rather have someone tell you the truth, but that is not the only time he has discussed fat people. The problem is that he is making a snap judgment about an entire group of people. That's called stereotyping and I don't condone it. This is the same EXACT thing he did when he blamed all black people for Prop 8 passing.
And for the record, I don't personally believe that the truth is always the best option (ie if someone looks terrible on their wedding day, I wouldn't necessarily tell them that.)
Finally, I would love to refer you to the direct study, but it is subscription only, published in the Archives of Internal Medicine. I can refer you to the press release of Einstein College of Medicine. It has much less spin and concludes the same thing. Also, it talks about the aging issue too. The bottom line is that while fat may be a risk for heart disease in some people it is not a risk for ALL people.
11/12/08
11/12/08
The problem is that obesity is NOT a lifestyle choice. It is based on a variety of GENETIC factors. GET IT? Yes, perhaps if I eat less and exercise more, I would lose weight, but I would have to eat much less and exercise much more then someone who did not have the genetic markers to be overweight.
We all know people who can eat whatever they want and NEVER gain weight, wouldn't it stand to reason that there are people who eat very well and exercise quite a bit who can never lose weight?
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11/13/08
After you have cried, laughed, vomited, shit, screamed, slept, burped and showered with someone sex becomes a lot less important.
After someone has held you in their arms while you sobbed over the death of your parent sex becomes a LOT less important.
My husband has been there with me through thick and thin, and I can NOT imagine being selfish enough to tell him I was no longer attracted to him because he gained weight (or lost weight, or lost a limb or ....)
Here's an idea, how about being attracted to someone for their mind, sense of humor, talent or compassion? How about we try and look past the physical and look into the soul of a person? Or is that too much to ask for?
11/13/08
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11/14/08
While you may not be able to tell the difference between someone with a genetic disposition to being overweight and those who it can be attributed to lifestyle, I do think you can take a look at the percentages of overweight people, and if you notice that the percentage of the population that is overweight is more today than it was 60 years ago, you can draw the conclusion that it can be attributed to lifestyle on a societal level. Unless there are some studies that show that people from families that tend to be heftier tend to reproduce at higher rates, which would explain the increase in the percentage of the population that is overweight.
I'm not advocating being rude to overweight people. However, I do think it's appropriate to educate about the health consequences of carrying extra weight, the importance of a healthy diet, and the need for physical activity.
11/14/08
I understand the theory behind what you are saying. However, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. To neglect your partners feelings in anyway (not just sexually) is a large warning sign in a relationship. However, to leave someone because you are no longer sexually attracted to them, I feel is a sign of immaturity, and a large sign that you are not yet ready for long term romance. Ultimately which is more important to you, that you want to fuck your partner, or that they support you when you are crying your eyes out? Is it more important that they go to the gym everyday or that they stayed home to make you dinner because you had a stressful day? Would you rather they dress up for you or get up at 3am to deal with a colicky child? Eventually, after 5-10-20 years the sexual attraction part of that relationship begins to be less important then the emotional support and intimacy that you have with your partner. It is not that sex is unimportant, but that it is less important.
You ask why sex would be mentioned so much if it wasn't important, why would the media champion sex so much if it wasn't important? Well, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, the media lies. Insane I know, but basing something as important as a a longterm life partner or what the "media" tells you is a pretty shitty way to make a decision. If you would really like to know what it takes to make a relationship work seek out those that have been married for over 20 years. I can assure you, PROMISE you, that sexual attraction isn't going to be in the top five of that list.
11/14/08
I tell her all the time that she may be naturally thin, but if she keeps eating so bad she'll end up dropping dead at 45 from arterial blockage.
When you hated it when people did this:
When I was younger, and all sorts of skinny, I had plenty of people who commented on my "anorexia." They just knew I couldn't be healthy, because I was so skinny. I must have been anorexic.
How about we just not comment on anyone's health because in the end it is really none of our business what they CHOOSE to do with their OWN bodies. You probably don't go around ripping drinks out of people's hands, yet those are bad for our health as well.
Finally in regards to this:
I do think you can take a look at the percentages of overweight people, and if you notice that the percentage of the population that is overweight is more today than it was 60 years ago, you can draw the conclusion that it can be attributed to lifestyle on a societal level.
There are several reason why a population may increase in size over 60 years. One of these is the idea that our nutrition has gotten better and we have gotten larger all around, taller, bigger bones, heavier. Also, in 1980's the BMI charts were changed, and put thousands of people that were previously normal weight into the overweight category and those that were overweight into the obese category. Drawing the conclusion that obesity is attributable to a lifestyle change on a societal level is dependent upon faulty logic.
11/14/08
What I've been hearing Vivelafat saying is that when a couple is truly and completely in love, the attraction is there, fat or thin. And I've seen that in my own marriage where we've both gone up and down the numbers on the scale but the wonderful thing is that neither of us really notice it in any significant way with the other.
As for fat-bashing...I call complete and utter bullshit on you and everyone else who wants to play the health card. There are only a few people alive on this planet that don't engage in some sort of unhealthy behavior, whether it's hooking up, smoking, drinking, a little weed here and there, maybe some Valium now and again, high heels, waxing, making your poor fingernails green with fungus by too much polish, etc. etc. We all do something that is less than wonderful for our bodies. So it's NOT acceptable to hate on fat people because you are Just So Concerned about their health.
11/12/08
11/12/08
My opinion (Which I just strongly agree with and boosted from another similar thread on a different site) is as follows:
Leave 'marriage' in the churches. That way a church can decide if they want to 'marry' you or not. That is completely within the rights of the church organization NOT to 'marry' someone who doesn't follow the beliefs of that particular church.....BUT (an here's the fun part) 'marriage' does NOT give tax breaks, or any other government perks.
Give EVERYONE civil unions. With certificates issued by the state. And entitlement to all those lovely goverment legislated/legal rights and bonuses.
That way you can have one or the other or BOTH depending on what you want and which is important to each couple. Then I'm not infringing on your religious beliefs and you are forcing me to follow yours.
Division of church and state.
I live in Canada and Gay marriage hasn't caused the Apocolypse. Some people need to broaden their horizons.
11/12/08
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11/12/08
"Finally, I'm searching for some exit poll data from California. I'll eat my shorts if gay and lesbian voters went for McCain at anything approaching the rate that black voters went for Prop 8."
So you "went for" Obama, and Black are no obligated to go for "No on 8?"
* Firstly, 70% of 10% of the population is not the whole problem.
* Secondly, 30% of Blacks did not support Prop 8. What are the odds that they will be mobilized to lend support to the No on 8 folks after bullshit attitudes like this.
* Thirdly, you know how White people don't all think alike? Neither do Black people. Some of us are gay. Some of us are not. Some of us are religious conservatives. Some of us are not.
* Fourthly (is that a word?), people are not defined by one identity. Blacks aren't just Blacks. We're also, as cited above, Black and gay and anti-8. We're Black religious conservatives. We're also Blacks who didn't know what Prop 8 was. We're also, well, you get the drift.
I think there is definitely homophobia in the Black community, and I think Prop 8 is fucking atrocious. But statements like Savage's reduce a complex problem to a pointed finger, which is intellectually disingenuous and just kind of whack.
11/12/08
As one of that 30%, I can tell you, not likely.
11/12/08
11/12/08
Is there a problem of Homophobia within black communities? Absolutely there is. My father( and the majority of my family) is very liberal when it comes to other issues but are very homophobic. Very, "If any of my children turned out to be gay, you are not my child anymore." If my family lived in California they would have voted for 8 because "Homosexuality is a sin/it's not natural/ god says so." It pains me that is the attitude of the older, more conservative community.
11/12/08
There doesn't seem to be an understanding out there that people attracted to the Democrats because of economic issues, because the GOP strikes them as racist/xenophobic, etc. aren't necessarily pro-gay, pro-choice feminists - socially, they may be really traditional and/or come from really traditional societies.
Pointing this out matters because demographic trends in this country means that these are voters we need to reach out to on these issues if we don't want social conservatism to be the reigning social order.
11/12/08
11/12/08
Quite frankly, I don't really know what the solution is. I hear a lot about how we need to "educate" socially conservative minorities about why gay marriage or abortion rights or whatever are good. But I'm guessing most of these people quite reasonably feel that we, with our immoral and decadent beliefs, high divorce rates, etc. are the ones who need to be educated and that their belief systems are just fine the way they are, thank you very much.
11/12/08
I think you're right about that to an extent. What's frustrating is that it's easy to get in to a useless roundabout discussion with homophobes because they love to bitch about people trying to make them gay or "make them like gay people" and trying to talk them down about gay marriage goes probably sounds like exactly that. I personally find it more effective when arguing about that to focus less on the bigotry (and before you flame me, that's not saying I deny that they are bigots. I'm saying I know where they stand, they know where I stand, and we'll probably never agree) and more on the concrete rights they're being denied and the fact that banning gay marriage doesn't change anything for your straight ass, but you can't eliminate "gayness" by banning gay marriage, so you will still need to "explain that shit to your kids," along with why you're fornicating and why you aren't married to their other parent if religion means so much to you.
I find it helpful to emphasize that making hospital visitation rights and insurance matters more difficult for people who might be fucking dying just because you're "grossed out by the thought of two dudes kissing" is beyond petty. Like, there are no words. I find that to be the more effective approach.
11/12/08
We need to say that, I don't care what the fuck your religion teaches, your religion doesn't get to decide legislation.
11/12/08
Sorry, I'm just... why does everyone act as if the denial of rights to gay people is just a regrettable occurrence?
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How does this translate into people brushing off prop. 8's passage?
11/12/08
As a white gay lady, for the record, I don't blame black people (or old people, or whatever - I blame the campaign for it, and I blame the people who voted for it) for this vote passing, but I'm definitely struck by the irony of the situation.
11/12/08
@BeckySharper: I guess that makes sense. I don't know many non-religious old people. :) The only one I've even spent energy discussing the matter with is one of my aunts, in 2004 when Georgia was voting on whether to ban gay marriage. We argued a lot about it, but in the end, she told me she voted "no." She still thinks lesbians are out to convert us all and doesn't get "why they have to announce it," but she also believes it's a dick move to interfere with how other people live.
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Hateful.
11/12/08
That in itself is not hateful, that's a fact.
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All black people are the same.
@Nodiva: Except he didn't do that all. He was angry and lashed out.
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@BeckySharper: I know he's pissed, and rightfully so, but it's a douchey move to lash out without knowing any better or thinking it through. Think before you blog, kids.
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1. Because they gave money.
2. Because there are more of them.