girlsonfilm - Jezebel

posts about #girlsonfilm more →
Sex, Ties & Videotape: What Sexploitation Films Say About American Tastes
Meryl Streep: "Men Run The Studios And Live Their Own Fantasies Through Them"
Male Writer Likes Women's "Soul And Strength, Toughness And Vulnerability"
Playboy Gives Consumers An Increasingly Inaccurate Impression Of Women
Debra Winger: "Women Don't Write Enough"
More Women In Porn Making Waves Behind The Camera
Up & Adam: If You Wear A Skirt You Are Asking For It
The Girl's Guide To Being A Noir Heroine
Variety Honors, Offends Women in Entertainment
Movie Sex Still Has The Power To Titillate

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token_illiterate_commenter
09/30/09

In reply to Sex, Ties & Videotape: What Sexploitation Films Say About American Tastes

Well, they all can't be awesome like "Faster Pussycat! Kill! Kill!"
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MyNameIsChris
10/01/09

@token_illiterate_commenter: Can not resist.
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inabook
09/30/09

In reply to Sex, Ties & Videotape: What Sexploitation Films Say About American Tastes
I've heard it suggested before that while a naked girl in the bed is better than a lingerie-clad girl in bed, a lingerie-clad girl on film beats out the naked girl on film-- because the act of viewing involves more fantasy than reality, and concealing nudity makes the female (or male) for more provocative. When the actual appearance retains even some small hint of mystery, the brain gets to work on fantasy, which makes getting off more enjoyable.

Also interesting is the fact that sex and violence both ramp up the nervous system-- one famous study found that after crossing a shaky bridge, men were more likely to claim they were attracted to "an attractive female research assistant" than when they crossed a stable bridge-- attributing the increase in heart rate to the woman, rather than the dangerous situation. Violent porn might simply be taking advantage of adding another route that gets the heart rate up, which may subconsciously lead to someone being more turned on, simply because if they're looking at porn, they'll attribute the response to arousal.
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andBegorrah
09/30/09

@inabook: Fuck, I gotta go change my eHarmony profile pic.
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redqueenmeg
09/11/09

In reply to Meryl Streep: "Men Run The Studios And Live Their Own Fantasies Through Them"
Well, that's because men are the default and women are just men-prime. That's why medical studies done on men are applicable to women and if women differ from the men's results then it's the women's fault.
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checkyaself
09/11/09

In reply to Meryl Streep: "Men Run The Studios And Live Their Own Fantasies Through Them"
It has nothing to do with women being able to understand the male experience better than men can understand the female experience, no woman knows what it is like to be a man, just as men have no idea what it is like to be a woman.
The problem with Hollywood is creating characters that transcend gender so that men and woman can relate to him/her and, either an actor or actress can take on the role. Instead they create and rely on stereotypical ideas on of what it is like to be male or female and create characters based on those ideas. The female lead/heroine in Inglorious Bastards could have been male but since it was a character who was fighting to revenge it was genderless.
Now we also have to remember that since men and women are condition and hardwired differently our experiences are be different, so Meryl probably may not have been best as the lead in Eastern Promises just as Jack Nicholson could not have been a lead in Thelma and Louise.
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tiredfairy
09/11/09

@checkyaself: Actually, it does. Because we're asked to identify with male characters all the time. It's taught to us in school by the predominately male perspective in what is deemed "classic" literature, and the pop culture where the male perspective/narrative is the default. If we want to relate we have to embrace the male perspective, depending on the type of story.

We all don't know what it's like to have the opposite genders biology, but we all know what it's like to have weird relatives, or an awkward adolescence, heart break, crushes, childhood adventures, teen antics, first times, weird work experiences, death of a loved one, etc. We all have the same emotions, the same capacity to feel any given thing. And to relate to the experiences of others either because we've experienced something similar, or because we can imagine how it would be for us.

The reason you can't always interchange character gender in any story depends on the perspective of the story. Thelma and Louise is a story about a friendship told through the female perspective. Eastern Promises is male. That's not the issue, that there are separate experiences or perspectives sometimes. It's that it's overwhelmingly male in most mainstream film.

And yes, stereotypes are part of the problem...but they're not the whole problem. It starts at valuing one perspective over another and goes from there.
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Edited by tiredfairy at 09/11/09 2:11 PM tiredfairy was starred tiredfairy was unstarred

OneBigPear
09/11/09

@tiredfairy: So this might be a lame comparison, but Starbuck was male in the original and female in the revisioning of BSG. I love both characters and was surprised at how close to canon (personality-wise) the new Starbuck was. I wonder if the same can be done for more stories than most people think.
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girlleastlikelyto
09/11/09

@OneBigPear: I wonder, though, if it would be as easy for people to accept a man in a role that was originally a woman's role as it is for them to accept the opposite situation. (Putting aside that it would suck because there are fewer good roles for women in TV and films.) It has to do with that point of view that the male experience is the default, so a woman can take on a man's role because it is a human role. So, especially after feminism, a woman can take on traditional male traits, like toughness. However, both in fictional works and in life, I think it is harder for men to assume women's roles and traits without being labeled as aberrant and "womanly" -- because what women do and are is perceived as specialized and specific to women.
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tiredfairy
09/11/09

@OneBigPear: I think that's actually a good comparison, because if you look at that character, there's nothing really gendered about Starbuck unless we choose to interpret it that way. We just tend to think of "heroes" as male. By switching the gender, and making it so believable, you realize how ridiculous those assumptions are.

I remember the original actor had some kind of fit about a woman being cast, and he called it some kind of "feminizing" of men. Which just shows you how out of touch he was.

There's no reason the character of a talented pilot who smokes and drinks and has sex when they want to has to be male. One of the things I like about Starbuck is that she does what she does because of who she is...not her gender. But she's still clearly a woman.

So I'm sure that could be done more often, especially in genre fiction, when the themes are really about social and political issues more than characters. When you remove it from strict reality it's often a lot easier to see how gender assumptions don't always add up.
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tiredfairy
09/11/09

@girlleastlikelyto: Yes. This. Very, very, very true. It wouldn't be viewed as a step down character-wise, though the opposite most likely would be. Because boy things are still, generally, better than girl things. Which is also true of characters. Most male characters are better defined and more well rounded, too.
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checkyaself
09/11/09

@tiredfairy: "Actually, it does. Because we're asked to identify with male characters all the time."
Maybe I haven't read enough books with male lead characters, but the ones that I have read have been genderless. I didn't see Huckleberry Finn or Elliot from E.T. as a "boys" adventures I saw it as a child's adventure, who could have been either a boy or a girl. We are asked to identify and see it through a child's perspective, not see it from a boys point of view. Elliot could've been a girl, the problem is that Hollywood keeps casting these genderless characters with male actors.
"We all don't know what it's like to have the opposite genders biology, but we all know what it's like to have..."
Genderless experiences.
"The reason you can't always interchange character gender in any story depends on the perspective of the story."
Are you agreeing with me, because that is exactly what I said?
"valuing one perspective over another and goes from there."
That is one part of the problem, but the other is casting so many genderless characters with male actors.
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tiredfairy
09/11/09

@checkyaself: Uhm...no. Those are both boy stories. You may have viewed it as genderless, but especially Huck Finn, is not. Just because a similar story could have been told about a girl, doesn't mean that the story is therefore genderless. I'm not following what makes them gender neutral. Other than the fact that stories from the male perspective are often considered that.

When I say "male perspective" I'm talking about the main character/protagonist being male and viewing the events/story through that characters perspective. So that how we view those events are, by definition, male oriented. That doesn't necessarily mean sexist, or about male genitalia, or only male characters. It just means that we the audience are being asked to identify with a male characters perspective. Which we are asked to do in both Huck Finn and E.T. Meanwhile, in Thelma & Louise, we are viewing the story from the women's perspective.

Yes, Hollywood keeps casting them that way. Because they're written that way and conceived of that way. Writers often write to their own experiences, which often means writing about their own gender and tailoring it to that experience. Because they believe they can more easily identify with it and write it more authentically/convincingly. A lot of mainstream stuff then relies on stereotypes of either gender because many people can generically relate to those generic characteristics because we're socialized to.

I agree, a story like E.T. could have had a female lead. But it didn't. Because the writer chose to write about a boy, partially, I think, because he is one...but also because it's an adventure/sci-fi story. Which is a genre generally considered to be "male" or appealing primarily to men. So the protagonists are often male. The fact that girls might also like those stories isn't a major concern. It's not consciously ignoring girls, it's just not considering them for the main perspective.

I don't think that most characters are genderless, I think the experiences are. We gender them by deciding whose perspective we tell a story from. And since Hollywood is mainly male writers, producers, and directors...well. That's the predominant perspective.
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FroderickFronkensteen
09/11/09

In reply to Meryl Streep: "Men Run The Studios And Live Their Own Fantasies Through Them"
And thus, the Manic Pixie Dream Girl was born.
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ promoted this comment

JuliaStepchild
09/11/09

In reply to Meryl Streep: "Men Run The Studios And Live Their Own Fantasies Through Them"
we need more of this, really... here she is, presenting joss whedon with an award.
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futuremouse
09/11/09

@JuliaStepchild: Joss Whedon actually may be a candidate for the exception to this rule. Sometimes. Not so much Dollhouse but with Buffy and Firefly there were some seriously kickass female characters concieved of and written by a man.
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tiredfairy
09/11/09

@futuremouse: He's definitely an exception. And actually, I'd argue that Dollhouse is quite feminist and has a lot of strong female characters...it's just within an incredibly repressive and nasty framework. Although I think we need more kickass female characters, sometimes the most critical work deals with characters who are not.
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vamvaki_poulaki
09/11/09

@futuremouse: I know he is not so popular as a male writing for female today but Judd Apatow captured Lindsay in Freaks and Geeks in a way that I could really relate to. it reminds me of the line from Virgin Suicides, "Obviously doctor, you have never been a 13 year old girl"
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cate3710 promoted this comment Edited by vamvaki_poulaki at 09/11/09 1:54 PM vamvaki_poulaki was starred vamvaki_poulaki was unstarred

cate3710
09/11/09

@vamvaki_poulaki: IMDB lists 18 writing credits for Paul Feig for Freaks and Geeks and 5 for Apatow, so it may be Feig who deserves more of the credit for a relatable female character.
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futuremouse
09/11/09

In reply to Meryl Streep: "Men Run The Studios And Live Their Own Fantasies Through Them"
Unfortunately it seems that woman are equally as unable to jump into a female characters mind and write something I can relate to as evidenced by Sex and the City and the recent and atrocious Ugly Truth.
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NefariousNewt a.k.a. General Awesomesauce promoted this comment futuremouse was starred futuremouse was unstarred

NefariousNewt
09/11/09

@futuremouse: Indeed. The fact is, Hollywood is incapable of relating to anyone or anything that has to do with reality. They simply stick to formulas that have worked in the past, change names and places, and keep trotting out tripe.
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ArtfulSlinger
09/11/09

@futuremouse: Sex and the City's screenplay wasn't written by a female. It was written by a gay man. I will always be upset about SATC's demise. I think the first few seasons of the show were great, powerful and fun. With the recent movie and the last season, it was like they actually backtracked and took back all of the five seasons before it. Really sad.

And in regards to the Ugly Truth and crap like that, there's an issue with women writing for women like men. Its silly and counterproductive, but it seems the easiest way for two chicks to get their idea on the big screen. Give me "Outrageous Fortune" any day.
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rednrowdy
09/11/09

@NefariousNewt a.k.a. General Awesomesauce: i think it has to do with the nature of entertainment. there is always going to be a market of people who don't want to see their own reality but want to escape. they don't want to see stories that are true to life, they want princesses and ridiculously expensive homes with characters who have jobs that could never pay enough for them to own that home, they want to see warm families and perfect looking people. heaven forfend if some audiences got their own real life fully reflected back at them. just give them snippets of things they can related to. fluff up the rest.
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Rare Affinity
09/11/09

@ArtfulSlinger: Ah the love that dare not say its name: another SATC fan. I must have a masculine mindset because I loved the show and often watch the re-runs. I could certainly identify with a lot of the situations that the women sometmes found themselves in. I have never understood why people are quite so antagonistic towards it. But then I suppose I prefer the occasional frothy television show to gritty hard-hitting photodocumentary images of cute but barely literate baby animals.
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Edited by Rare Affinity at 09/11/09 1:25 PM Rare Affinity was starred Rare Affinity was unstarred

FroderickFronkensteen
09/11/09

@futuremouse: OH GOD. Nobody shared my utter disgust for that movie, so I wrote an entire revised (albeit severely shortened) script for it to explain myself. Because I don't have time to express it in its entirety: [bluejeansjess.blogspot.com]
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TwiceShy promoted this comment Edited by FroderickFronkensteen at 09/11/09 1:44 PM

TwiceShy
09/11/09

@FroderickFronkensteen: I would have shared your utter disgust but wait- now that I read your revised script I can. You probably still did make it sound better than it actually was.
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funnyface
09/11/09

In reply to Meryl Streep: "Men Run The Studios And Live Their Own Fantasies Through Them"
I have to geek out and mention that this is exactly in line with some literary theory I was reading for a class last week. Specifically Judith Fetterley's "On the Politics of Literature:" "Literature is male. To read the canon of what is currently considered classic American literature is perforce to identify as male...Our literature neither leaves women alone nor allows them to participate. It insists on its universality at the same time that it defines that universality in specifically male terms."
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eclare09
09/11/09

@funnyface: Yes. The default societal narrative in western culture has always been that of the heterosexual white male. This became especially apparent during the Sotomayor confirmation hearings. All of those Republican Senators that were afraid that Sotomayor would be "biased" and not apply the law "objectively" cannot comprehend that there are ways of experiencing the world other than from their own culturally dominant viewpoint. So annoying!
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CurtCole
09/11/09

In reply to Meryl Streep: "Men Run The Studios And Live Their Own Fantasies Through Them"
I just love Meryl and am inclined to agree with anything and everything that she says. Were she a religious leader I would be drinking her Kool-Aid with a smile.
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NefariousNewt
09/11/09

@CurtCole: I wish she would start a religion, so I could worship her openly, instead of hiding my altar to her in a locked room in my basement.
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maneki neko
09/11/09

In reply to Meryl Streep: "Men Run The Studios And Live Their Own Fantasies Through Them"
It's probably because nobody ever makes men jump into women character's minds. We call pretty much any movie with a woman character a "chick flick". And does anyone remember high school English class? A lot of the guys would bitch if anyone ever tried to make them read stuff with female leads, and so for the most part, no one ever did.

Unrelated, but Meryl is looking fierce in this pic.
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theKP
09/11/09

@maneki neko: I actually asked my high school English teacher why we weren't reading more books by women, and she said that girls would read books featuring boys and men (like, The Natural), but boys wouldn't be willing to read books about the female experience (like Jane Eyre). That was in the early 90s though, so maybe things have changed a little since then?

Also, Meryl is totally looking fierce! Channeling Hegelian philosophy looks good on her.
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funnyface
09/11/09

@theKP: How will this ever change unless teachers who are AWARE of this make the boys read female literature and broaden their minds?
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judgingamy
09/11/09

@maneki neko: Yeah. I'm sure men could jump into the mind of a female character if they ever got used to it. I've been jumping into male minds since i was a little kid, so I don't even think about it now. All of Judd Apatow's movies male characters could be replaced by female ones, and nothing would change at all. I have adventures with my friends. i dont get it.
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ytuhermanotambien
09/11/09

@theKP: I can understand on their own time, but in the teacher's class, can't he or she insist the male students read a book by a woman with a female main character?

Also, I read recently that even really young boys will apparently refuse to see Disney movies with female (cartoon!) stars, which accounts for the fact that animated films with male leads, even if those leads are lions or other animals, make more money than those with female leads. That's so depressing.
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theKP
09/11/09

@funnyface: Unfortunately the public school curriculum is pretty sticky because teachers need to want to change things, and they need the material resources to provide new books. On the bright side, I think the changes in the college curriculum have started to make an impact on high schools, because most of my incoming college students have read at least one Toni Morrison novel. I wish we could take over the AP test and put more Sarah Orne Jewett and Sandra Cisneros on there to provide some more motivation.
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tiredfairy
09/11/09

@maneki neko: Yep. And it's also because the male perspective story is also considered default neutral in a way female character/experience stories are not.

Which is ridiculous. Especially when you consider that every story can be distilled down to certain structures and types. So the specifics of any situation are different, regardless of gender, but things like coming-of-age, or love, or quests, aren't inherently gendered. They're experiences we all share. We all know how awkward adolescence is. We all have a first kiss story, a wacky friends adventure story, a what I learned over the summer story, etc.

But the "female experience" is still treated as very other even though it's not. Sadly, not only would it take more women writers and directors, but it would require more male writers and directors to get over it and start telling those stories too. I know a lot of writers default to relating to a character that's closest to them and that includes gender. But while women have had to indentify with the male perspective in order to get varied stories...men haven't.

Bearing in mind, there are men who get this.
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tiredfairy
09/11/09

@ytuhermanotambien: I think a lot of that is the way we start kids really young in gendering their world. This is for girls, this is for boys, etc. I mean, it starts with colors and just goes from there. A lot of kids first learn what is and is not acceptable via gendered ideas of what toys, shows, and "stuff" boys or girls should like.

And there's also the unfortunate reality that we view girls things as...not necessarily bad, but certainly not as important or good as boy things.

While I'm sure lots of families are progressive, peer groups put a lot of pressure on kids, and it ends up in the same place a lot of the time.
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WestMantooth
09/11/09

@judgingnora:
Really? Even the 40 year old Virgin? I don't care how awkward, clumsy the woman is, I doubt she'd be a virgin. Bad at getting dates sure.
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rixatrix
09/11/09

@tiredfairy: I agree with all of this, and I also wonder if boys don't want to read from the female perspective because throughout their lives, they are actively told to AVOID relating to females. Boys shouldn't cry like girls, throw like girls, run like girls, etc. So when it comes time to put themselves in a girl's shoes, they rebel - it's the only thing they've been taught. Boys are boys, and girls need to prove they're as good as boys (and thus can put themselves in boys' shoes through literature).
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tiredfairy
09/11/09

@rixatrix: Yes, this, definitely. And we start that young, too. I think our culture emphasize gender differences in an extremely detrimental way, which furthers this idea that the male perspective is "better" and more universal. Add "white" and "hetero" to that and it gets even more narrow.

And it's not just parents. Other kids do this too. Boys like this, girls like that. If a girl likes it, then it's not for boys, and therefore "bad". I think that's done less with boy things, or the value of "bad" is not the same.
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boxspelunker
02/18/09

In reply to Male Writer Likes Women's "Soul And Strength, Toughness And Vulnerability"
That kind of thinking drives me fucking nuts. "Oh, tee hee, I'm a lowly man and all the LADIES are telling me what to do! Tee hee!" AUGH I CAN'T EVEN PUT INTO WORDS WHAT THAT SOUNDS LIKE. Seriously!

This is objectification. Well, I think it is. These kinda of people don't regard women (or whatever group they're fetishizing and waxing poetic about) as "real" people, but as a stereotype. Like lucystrawberry so brilliantly played, it's just self-aggrandization and such utter crap.

Oh, women! They are so full of spirit and life! And everything they do is magical, even the bad stuff! It's so fucking whimsical!

argh italics burst, sorry.
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Dogtanian
02/18/09

In reply to Male Writer Likes Women's "Soul And Strength, Toughness And Vulnerability"
I watched this for the first time last night.

'Twas crap.

Lots of dialogue, none of it even slightly how real people actually talk.

They should have spent the money on buying the rights to Big Love instead, which is not shown in the U.K

If anyone could tell me how i could get my hands on Season 3, please PM me.

Please!
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DexterHaven
02/18/09

In reply to Male Writer Likes Women's "Soul And Strength, Toughness And Vulnerability"
Oh God, Mistresses really is a big pile of shite. I watched last season as it's set in Bristol, where I live, and it's fun to see the fabulously unrealistic lifestyles these women have. But there was a tipping point for my friend and me watching it: the ridiculous story about the doctor who was being hauled before a tribunal with the risk of being struck off for helping her ex-lover die and sleeping with his son. She was all 'oh dear, this is a bit shit, I hope [ex-lover's son] doesn't hate me' or some such shit, and we just couldn't get our heads around the idea that total professional disgrace was something to be shrugged off. I know, I know, light drama whateva, but it hit a real nerve with me, because I think it's really rare that dramas actually acknowledge the role that work has in women's lives - unless they're workplace dramas like ER etc where the workplace is the focus. You know, women talk about their jobs a lot with each other, maybe - gasp - even more than we talk about shoes or cake.
God, that was long. I had no idea I had such strong feelings about Mistresses till now.
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Safiya
02/18/09

@DexterHaven: I've never seen this show, but I really agree with what you're saying here. I think it's this weird misconception that women who aren't doctors/lawyers/[insert SERIOUS, HIGHLY RESPECTED JOB here] aren't deeply involved in their work. My girlfriends and I may not be saving the world, nor earning heaping piles of socially validating money; but who we are is deeply entrenched with what we do. Being dumped or having a sick/dying child aren't the only dramas women have to deal with. What about feeling underutilized at your job? Toxic coworkers? Professional conflict and/or humiliation? Work-related issues MATTER to so many women. Caring about family and relationships and caring about work is not mutually exclusive. Um, duh.

Can you tell this bothers me? (My boyfriend, who out-earns me threefold, cannot conceil his boredom when I talk about work. Yet I know so much about his esoteric technical field by now I could work for his company. Somebody shoot me, plz?)
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DexterHaven
02/19/09

@Safiya: Absolutely! I've always had a big bugbear about this, because I think most shows or films never engage with the minutiae of the way women talk to each other, or acknowledge that often husbands/boyfriends/why can't I get a man? discussions are a really small part of those conversations.

I also hate the shorthand of having female characters in successful professional jobs without ever showing the reality of those jobs to someone's life. So in Mistresses, one is a doctor, another a lawyer, both high powered, but able to spend all their time fannying around sleeping with umpteen blokes and having lunch.
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Dodgergirl
02/18/09

In reply to Male Writer Likes Women's "Soul And Strength, Toughness And Vulnerability"
I really appreciate Wadlow's sentiment, but I think it's important to remember that the problem isn't that there are men who write female characters, the problem is when ONLY men get these types of opportunities to write and create, it leads a very one-sided look at women.

Diversity behind the scenes-- racial and gender diversity-- helps create diversity in front of the camera. Plus, it means there will be a wider range of interesting characters, and that's good for everyone.
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Ailatan
02/18/09

@Dodgergirl: Well said. While I was reading this is I remembered A room of one's own by Virginia Woolf, and there is a section in this lecture/fiction/monologue in which she talks about the milion writings there are of men on women, and how we, women, have to read ourselves and their perceptions in their works.

Sorry if my response is not very articulate. But I agree that we need different voices, and not just one point of view.
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Pantani
02/18/09

In reply to Male Writer Likes Women's "Soul And Strength, Toughness And Vulnerability"
Sorry, but what is he talking about? I don't mind having my ego flattered, especially when I didn't have to do anything to deserve it, but this doesn't ring true at all.

I know a lot of men who love women they know and also think about sex a lot, but almost none who seem to obsess over the essence of womanhood. If he wants to write about how he admires women, he can drop the hyperbole and also acknowledge that, no, we don't run everything just because men will do stupid things just to have sex with us.
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Penny
02/18/09

@Pantani: I would be worried if a man was trying to worry about my essence.

And, empathy and obsession are.....very different.

This whole thing makes me feel weird, and I am having trouble pin-pointing why (although I think Lucy summed it up well).
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Pantani
02/18/09

@Penny Plastic:

I think it's because he comes close to fetishizing femininity, which is something men have been doing forever, but never gave us any real power.

Like nowadays, men fetishize feet or leather or certain races, but they used to treat the entire gender the same way because they were turned on by femaleness, irrespective of the individual.

I don't think I'm expressing this clearly though, because it just occurred to me recently while watching Mad Men or something.
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Pantani was starred Pantani was unstarred

Jack_Burton
02/19/09

@Pantani: Are you hinting that he's moving towards a little TV/TS action, here?

Or that he's "trying it on for size" mentally?
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Jack_Burton was starred Jack_Burton was unstarred

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