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Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
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Tart of Darkness
01/16/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
Here's one new area of gender confusion that confuses me: Horsemanship. Women have become so numerous in many aspects of the sport that some of the men who ride at our barn are embarrassed to do anything they perceive as "girly". Funnily enough the 14 yr old handles it better than many of the older guys.

The one who seems to have the hardest time is in his late 20s/early 30s. He has an off the track thoroughbred and was appalled that he is now required to bathe his horse thoroughly and yes, clean his penis sheath. He kept saying to his horse, "Yeah, guy I know you're not used to some clumsy guy bathing you."

And I pointed out to him that at the track the horses are worked out and bathed every single day and that many (at least 50% if not more) of the grooms are men. Almost 90% of the trainers are men; 60% of the exercise riders are men, so what exactly is girlie about exercising, grooming and bathing your horse.

BTW, he backed out on the sheath cleaning deciding to have the vet (a man) to do it.
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bozofish
01/15/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
Colleges like Ohio State have their football players take ballet for better coordination. This stuff is so funny, especially when you see that Moms are all about wanting their son to be an "evolved boy" (meaning not afraid to go a little girly).
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MeganGlass 就是一个古代的三明治
01/15/09

@bozofish: Football legend Jim Thorpe was a champion ballroom dancer! I learned that in a college history class. Yay higher education.
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whatever
01/15/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
While I find the concerns of those on this board who think articles like this might make some think that "boo hoo, boys have so hard, so shut up you rabid feminists," I can assure you that a boy dressing up as a princess or wanting his nails painted or liking jump rope or knitting or even silky fabrics is greeted with way more horror in our society than a girl wanting to do "boy things." I know this because my little three year old son wants to be just like his big sister and so as well as being into Thomas the Tank and Superman, he also likes playing princess dressup and wearing her old hot pink satin backpack in public.

You would think I'm beating him from the reactions we get to this on the street. My takeaway from all of the freakout he got the last time he had nail polish on is that society really doesn't like it when boys embrace the feminine because, as males, they are assumed to have an elevated status in society. Our family's refusal to agree with that statement--boy things are better, so it's ok when girls want to be like them but bad when boys want to be like girls--really riles a lot of people up.
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Trulymadlyme
01/15/09

@whatever: Violently, I might add.

Oh, violence. Just another great "masculine" characteristic....
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whatever
01/15/09

@trulymadlyme: If he continues liking what he likes, I can sadly see that in his future. Right now, the pressure comes from older women telling me to not let him wear "that backpack" or this one velvet blazer he liked for a while. I snapped at one woman "He likes it because it's soft and feels good. Are boys only supposed to wear itchy clothing?" She told me that velvet was for girls, not boys. It really upset my daughter (who was standing, taking it all in) until I showed her pictures of the different fashions throughout history and explained that fashion is not set in stone and nobody (and certainly not an old biddy on the street) can categorize a fabric as being for only one gender or another.
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SarahMC
01/15/09

@whatever: You sound like just the kind of mom I hope to be.
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MeganGlass 就是一个古代的三明治
01/15/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
I'm reminded of Kip Winger getting called out on doing ballet and taking loads of shit from the rest of the hair-metal community. He defended it, and rightly so, by pointing out that dancing ballet is no mean feat. Then he made the misstep of challenging his tormentors to a ballet-off to see who was more hardcore. I still giggle about that one, and yes, Kip, it's at your expense.

That said, I've got nothing but admiration for anyone who can do double-dutch. That stuff is amazing!
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MeganGlass 就是一个古代的三明治
01/15/09

@MeganGlass: To clarify, I laugh at the elementary-schoolness of a ballet-off to prove your tormentors wrong, and not at his dancing past.
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Jamie Barton
01/15/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
As a boy who took ballet from third through eighth grade I can say that the flippant remarks by some are quite short sighted; I was beaten up on many occasions, my fifth grade locker was broken into by fellow students so my dance gear could be paraded around, and even a teacher heartily mocked me. But hey, I'm just a nasty man so maybe I deserved it.
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ellaesther
01/15/09

@Jamie Barton: You did not, and I'm so sorry that happened. I think that if you keep reading, you'll find a lot of women expressing a lot of concern and dismay. I worry about my son in this department, and am really hoping that the world in which he is growing up will be a kinder one than the one you faced.
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whatever
01/15/09

@Jamie Barton: I've got your back on this one. People who think it's easier in America for a boy to defy gender roles than a girl have not been paying attention. I glad you stuck with something you loved, despite others ignorance and own self-loathing. And, on a personal note, I find male dancers to be, on the whole, way more interesting to watch than female ones.
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SarahMC
01/15/09

@whatever: "People who think it's easier in America for a boy to defy gender roles than a girl..."

Who thinks that, though?
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whatever
01/15/09

@SarahMC: Apparently "Brutally Honest Babes" and other commentors on this board, for starters.
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SarahMC
01/15/09

@whatever: Not sure how you came to that conclusion. A little snark is just fun sometimes. But it's pretty common knowledge that males are punished more severely than females when they do stuff "meant" for the other gender.
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Trulymadlyme
01/15/09

@SarahMC: I sort of got that vibe from the article above...it was never explicitly stated, but the subtext from quotes like this:

"But let's not be disingenuous: these boys are not beaten up just for jumping double-dutch or dancing with girls"

Make me think that.

Interestly, the root of the "otherness" is due to the fact that many facets of society discourages boys, often with violence, from valuing things that are "traditionally feminine." Most, likely because they can't stand the ideal that "feminine" traits as being so worthwhile that a boy would give up his god-given rights to do "manly" things.
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SarahMC
01/15/09

@SarahMC: In fact, I'm certain BHB was snarking because she recognizes that boys are stigmatized so much more severely because "girl" activities are beneath them.
Even when the boys are bullied it's still rooted in misogyny; she was snarking on that.
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ellaesther
01/15/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
My son (he is coming up a lot here today!) really sort of likes nail polish. I'm not sure what about it appeals, but he does, and every few months will wear some crazy combination for a few days, often over the weekend, or on his toes (read: under shoes).

This weekend he had a friend put black nail polish on him, and decided to wear it to school (4th grade), even though he was nervous. I told him he could think of it as a science experiment ("who responds how to this change in my appearance?"), which he kind of did, but he also told everyone that he'd lost a bet. It makes me sad that he feels he has to be dishonest about who he is, in order to be who he is.
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SarahMC
01/15/09

@ellaesther: It appeals to him for the same reason it appeals to little girls. And me!
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ellaesther
01/15/09

@SarahMC: See, it doesn't appeal to me at all! It's like having a very small, uncuddly pet. All that watching your nails!
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SarahMC
01/15/09

@ellaesther: I like painting small details so I enjoy the process of going through my ten fingers/toes, then admiring the pretty colors. :)
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ceejeemcbeegee is not here
01/15/09

@ellaesther: Huh? What's there to watch? You paint them and move on.
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ellaesther
01/15/09

@ceejeemcbeegee: Oh, the chipping! And what if I use the wrong sponge (ie: something scratchy)! And the fixing of the chipping and the result of using the wrong sponge! And I ALWAYS chip a nail on the way home. Always. And if I do it myself, there's the whole problem of doing my right fingers with my left hand. No, no, ceejeemcbeegee, there is no moving on. There is constant vigilance.
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BicSharpie
01/15/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
I'm a dude and when I was in middle school I was given the option of taking either dance or wrestling in gym class. I chose dance.
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schlegs84
01/15/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
My bf took 6 years of ballet in rural Idaho. It's one of the things I love about him.

And I would kill for his legs.
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Spaceman Bill Leah
01/15/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
Considering that childhood obesity has become such a significant problem, I think we should be doing our best as a society to avoid discouraging children from participating in physical activity, regardless of the traditional gender stereotypes.

I'd rather have a healthy ballet dancing son that gets picked on than have an 8-yr-old with diabetes that gets picked on.
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VaginaWig is A Merkin
01/15/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
My senior year of high school, 4 football players joined the competition team as a joke. They later admitted that it was harder than football. That was one of the most satisfying things I have ever heard.
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VaginaWig is A Merkin
01/15/09

@TheVaginaWig is fucking fabulous: I should probably clarify that this was the cheerleading team.
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Bunny_of_doom
01/15/09

@TheVaginaWig is fucking fabulous: I was gonna say, competing to be like the girls? Thats hardcore right there ;)
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stoprobbers
01/15/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
Oh, double dutch. I tried, and I tried, and I tripped, and I tripped...
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thesciencegirl
01/15/09

@stoprobbers: The hardest part for me was jumping in. I'd stand there bouncing back and forth trying to work up the courage to jump in between the ropes, and all the others kids would taunt me. haha
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tonightineed is actually Mrs. Ziegler-Spock
01/15/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
Double-dutch is hardcore. I only mastered it for a brief period of time in 8th grade. Which is to say for about 2 minutes.
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PilgrimSoul
01/15/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
Are gender roles less defined? I seem to have missed all the right memoranda these days. As far as I understand, my liking dude things like careers will one day, according to the dominant narrative, cause me to be sad, childless, and the mistress of many stray cats.

Moreover, while I don't mind talking about men and their travails, per se, I don't tend to hear that from most people running their mouths on this particular point. Mostly, I hear, "feminism has gone too far and now we are neglecting boys!"
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
01/15/09

@PilgrimSoul: ...or "race-love has gone too far and now the poor whites are oppressed." Yes, I agree.
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VaginaWig is A Merkin
01/15/09

@PilgrimSoul: As far as I understand, my liking dude things like careers will one day, according to the dominant narrative, cause me to be sad, childless, and the mistress of many stray cats.

Yes, because as you know, "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." I freaking love that quote. It's in my Facebook profile. But I would like to add "feminazi bonerkiller" to the things that feminism causes you to become.
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Tart of Darkness
01/16/09

@TheVaginaWig is fucking fabulous: Are you me? See my comment on the Krispy Kreme thread!
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BlondeGrlz
01/15/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
"A dude being a nanny is just weird. It's like a woman wanting to be a...

Yes, what is the rest of that sentence?

A...a penis model!"
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ellaesther
01/15/09

@BlondeGrlz is due April 1st: I can't tell you how happy I am to write the following: Almost all of my children's babysitters have been boys, all but one. And two were essentially part-time nannies, each in his turn. And when each child was in part-time in-home daycare, the care provider was a man. My daughter is still essentially in love with one of the nannies ("will you always be my babysitter, Neil?"), and was the flower girl at his wedding. My son still sees him as the ultimate guy.

It is my honest and sincere hope that this fact will make a difference in my kids' lives and the lives of the boys who know them.

Nurturing men, FTW!
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beliefunwrought
01/15/09

In reply to Boys Who Like Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Ballet
My brother took ballet classes. I don't think he'd be ok with me sharing that with either his Army buddies or his frat brothers.
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DangerMouse
01/15/09

@beliefunwrought: I go to tango classes and there are UNFAILINGLY more men than women these days.

When doing introductions and describing previous dance experience, one guy said, "I... did ballet for two years. BUT IT WAS A LONG TIME AGO AND THAT IS BEHIND ME."

Did I meet your brother?
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
01/15/09

@DangerMouse: They're the only ones that have any rhythm. The other ones will step on ur feetz and hurtz them.

True story.
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