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The Cyclical Nature Of Songs About Sexual Violence
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JinxyMcDeath
11/24/09

In reply to The Cyclical Nature Of Songs About Sexual Violence
Whoa, Bill Paxton came out of nowhere towards the end in that kidnap/attempted rape Limp Bizkit video. Did I miss something about the plot?
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sequined
11/24/09

In reply to The Cyclical Nature Of Songs About Sexual Violence
I'd be interested to hear what other, maybe more recent songs she's looking at/considers relevant, in terms of women singing about violence against women. It seems like the culture of violence against women is so ingrained that in a lot of cases it's hard to even notice that songs we hear on the radio everyday are kind of squicky in that sense. (Well, worse than squicky in a lot of cases, I guess.)

I'm not sure it would be an example, but what about Britney Spears' "Hit Me Baby One More Time"? Or the "Russian Roulette" song by Rihanna?
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crazy_lady
11/24/09

@sequined: May I ask - having grown up to Britney Spears in high school...what do you think that song means? Because, I never got the impression that that song was about violence against women. I had heard that by adults, who seemed to take a literal impression of the song, and not been aware that it was slang.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
11/25/09

@crazy_lady: I was in high school when Britney came out, and I always thought it was a twisted song about a girl who was desperate for her abusive boyfriend to come back to her. How do you interpret the lyrics?
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cityofglass
11/25/09

@Hana Maru: "Hit me" means (or meant at the time - most likely the kids have moved on from that slang) "have sex with me". WHich is why it was released as "...Baby One More Time".
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crazy_lady
11/25/09

@Hana Maru: cityofglass' comment explains it exactly.

Or a more tame version, would be "hit me up", come by again, etc.

But yeah, I'm surprised you thought that. I wonder how many others did? It's interesting how we all take such different meanings from songs.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
11/25/09

@cityofglass: Thanks, that makes sense.
@crazy_lady: The other lyrics of the song are pretty crazily co-dependent. That's why it made sense to me that she was telling him she'd rather have him back and hitting her. There are other songs that are like"Come back, you don't have to be faithful/you can lie to me"

#tips
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Penny
11/24/09

In reply to The Cyclical Nature Of Songs About Sexual Violence
Oh yes, I would like to have coffee with this woman. She might be my new hero.
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boxspelunker
11/24/09

In reply to The Cyclical Nature Of Songs About Sexual Violence
Oh, that woman in the Limp Bizkit video! I just want to run in there and get him away from her - leave her alone, she's clearly terrified, you psychotic entitled asshole!

I don't know how someone can look at that and feel it's romantic or desirable, I really don't. All I can think of is that he's a fucking cannibal and he's going to stalk her and kill her and maim her body.
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girl.of.your.dreams
11/24/09

In reply to The Cyclical Nature Of Songs About Sexual Violence
I saw Tori open with this song, probably about ten years ago, and it was CHILLING. I do think she makes an interesting commentary on Eminem's song without having to say anything but his lyrics. Just listening to those words spoken through a woman's voice make you hear all the violence behind them.
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Sputnik_Sweetheart
11/24/09

@girl.of.your.dreams: And she performed it behind a curtain didn't she? You could hear a pin drop in that theater.
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girl.of.your.dreams
11/25/09

@Sputnik_Sweetheart: She did. And later she played Me and a Gun. It was pretty intense.
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MargaretMoony
11/24/09

In reply to The Cyclical Nature Of Songs About Sexual Violence
I'm really excited to see this thesis, my Feminist Student Union is trying to put out a monthly list about popular media that supports/encourages violence against women.
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Cimorene
11/24/09

In reply to The Cyclical Nature Of Songs About Sexual Violence
Holy shit. I just read the lyrics to that Eminem song. How is that not considered an actual threat? Like, if someone not-famous wrote that song and posted it on their facebook page, couldn't it be used as evidence of a real and physical threat of impending violence? How is language like that ok?

It's really, really scary. No wonder so many people talked about how Rihanna "deserved" getting beaten by Chris Brown, when so many people grew up listening to music like this.
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frenchic
11/25/09

@Cimorene: "when so many people grew up listening to music like this."
Ageism at its best! Since I went to high school in the 90s and listened to popular music I MUST not be able to grasp what domestic violence is.
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Cimorene
11/25/09

@frenchic: WTF are you talking about? I went to high school in the 90s and listened to popular music. The point is that popular music normalizes this kind of violence, and since we live in a world in which real self-reflection and examination of the status quo are discouraged, the number of people who simply allow eminem's music (etc) to shape their consciousness and reaction to events is far higher than those that can critically look at popular culture. The whole point of this article and the woman's research is that popular music deeply affects the way we see the world.
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TRexstasy
11/24/09

In reply to The Cyclical Nature Of Songs About Sexual Violence
Oh Tori. When I chose you as my life guide and pretend guardian angel in 1991, I had no idea how many times you'd make me laugh, cry, and jump up off the sofa going, "YEAH!!", but damn, girl. Thanks.
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sukaina
11/24/09

In reply to The Cyclical Nature Of Songs About Sexual Violence
Reading those lyrics makes me wonder how come his records haven't been banned from the airwaves by listener's complaints. Or why prominent recording artists are publicly shunning him and removing him from their collaborations. Maybe its because his girlfriend isn't a pop singer with a police photo, she's just a slut and a druggie bitch who doesn't matter. This guy is worse than Chris Brown, but nobody is paying attention.
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Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
11/24/09

@sukaina: I am never one to jump to the 'white guy' excuse but... he's a white guy. He presented himself as this dopey, clever rapper with a superhero alter ego and the next thing everyone knew his songs were being used to promote the NFL and parents were buying his albums and posters ('He's soooo cute') for their pre-teens. Kids who'd never be allowed a Method Man or Snoop Dogg album.

It's kind of like when parents take their kids to any animated movie whatever the rating.
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samethingwedoeverynightpinky
11/25/09

@sukaina: I agree that a lot of his music is creepy as hell and it's sick that it's culturally acceptable to not only have it on a mainstream record label, but also on the radio. And I think part of it is as pizza pizza pizza says below, a racial thing. But I've sometimes struggled with eminem because I actually think it's more than that. a) He's talented. His lyrics are often (not always) quite clever and rely on interesting wordplay and good flow and all of the things that made me love hip hop. Eminem gets away with it where talented black rappers who are equally offensive get villanized, but it would be a lot easier to dismiss him if he were just a talentless fuck up. B) Because he's created this confessional relationship with his audience, and built a career around this id version of himself whose partly performance art, it can seem easier to draw a line between his art and his life. In Dutchman (another problematically misogynistic work of art) a character posits that absent black artists, there would have been a racial revolution already, because all the rage that gets channeled into art would be on the streets instead. And as a person who does creative work, I think there's something to be said for exploring things in art that you would never explore in real life. The issue is that if pop music is your canvas, does channelling your rage into music instead of directing it at your mother or ex wife add to a climate of violence, when you're putting stuff like this into 12 year olds' ears. IMO, of course it does, but it's hard to measure. I'd hesitate to say that he's much worse than Chris Brown though. Chris Brown smashed his girlfriend's face in. Eminem writes horrifying things about Kim and other women, but has he actually physically abused her?
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NotCoolEnough
11/24/09

In reply to The Cyclical Nature Of Songs About Sexual Violence
the Crystals wrote the song 'he hit me (and it felt like a kiss)' because one of the members, I forget who, was abused by her boyfriend. At the time, she used to babysit for Carole King, who encouraged the young woman to put her talents to use and sing. King wrote the song based on the babysitter's experiences. A lot of times, that song is misinterpreted as an ode to violent boyfriends, as in, I love when he hits me. But in reality, it's a statement about those who stay in abusive relationships, those who actually DO think that the men who beat them really love them. The song was never released in the US. I think it's anti-violence, really. It just lets us in on what's going on in someone's mind when they stay in abusive relationships, and are in denial.
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Awestruck
11/24/09

In reply to The Cyclical Nature Of Songs About Sexual Violence
I love "He Hit Me (And It Felt Like a Kiss)," it's so pretty and so ugly all at the same time.

I've heard of 97 Bonnie and Clyde, but ohmygod it's fucking creepy as hell, I can't even listen to the whole thing.
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boxspelunker
11/24/09

@Awestruck: I had trouble understanding Amos, so I looked up the lyrics and followed along.

She send shivers down my spine and made me feel just awful inside. I'd never heard the song before.
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KiddyKat
11/24/09

In reply to The Cyclical Nature Of Songs About Sexual Violence
I used to be a huge Eminem fan in middle...high school? Whatever, but that song was too much for me even before I heard the Tori cover. It was just too detailed and thought out to not be creepy.
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meritxell: an erotic life
11/24/09

@KiddyKat: I was mostly whatever about Eminem, but I can barely listen to the Tori cover. It is epically sinister and creepy; gives me goosebumps. It's probably one of the top 10 covers of all time.
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Edited by meritxell: an erotic life at 11/24/09 6:23 PM

Porcelina
11/24/09

@meritxell: an erotic life:
@KiddyKat:

I, too, find it uncomfortable to listen to. But, I think that is the point. Those lyrics SHOULD be uncomfortable. That's probably why her cover pisses some people off. Lol.
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boxspelunker
11/24/09

@KiddyKat: I had only heard Eminem on the radio and thought he was a little too angry, but he seemed to have a sense of humor. And then I found out all of the things he had written about Kim, and I was... floored. I had no idea you could talk about someone that way in public and not be suspected of planning a murder.

It's so detailed. And strange. Why would you have your daughter come with you? It doesn't make sense. I don't want to think about it, really.
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beatrice2000
11/25/09

@boxspelunker: When he first got big, "My Name Is" was all over the radio, and I thought he was a one-off, jokey rapper. Then while listening to a local college station, they played "Bonnie and Clyde '97," and I was really creeped out by this opposite side. Despite that "My Name Is" had dark lyrics, it was masked by an upbeat, happy tone.
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kyotokitty
11/25/09

@boxspelunker: He takes his daughter with him because he's going to drown her and, probably, himself in the car. Y'know, like all those 'good, loving fathers' you read about in the news the day after they've massacred their entire family because their wife had the temerity to actually be an individual, separate person. And next thing there'll be 'fathers' rights' groups moaning on about how poor, misunderstood men need more emotional outlets. Because, y'know, the 60 percent or more of murdered women killed by a partner or husband isn't enough to make them stop and wonder why women sometimes hate and fear men. And the whole thing makes me so angry that I can't actually speak, let alone stay on topic.

But - *takes breath* - Deborah Finding's comment about misogyny in white men's music is veeery interesting. I always thought the Stones' 'Under My Thumb' was a poisonous little hate anthem.
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boxspelunker
11/25/09

@beatrice2000: Yeah, that's what I thought, too. I still find some of his songs pretty humorous, and they seem self-aware and tongue-in-cheek. I never got an album of his or anything, but he's got some damn creepy stuff out there.

#tips
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boxspelunker
11/25/09

@kyotokitty: Is that what the "two things out of the trunk" line is referring to? I thought it might mean the stepfather and son. Wow.

I've never heard that song, but I'm going to find it and see what I think.

#tips
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kyotokitty
12/02/09

@boxspelunker: yeah, I'm not sure, I kind of moved away from an analysis of the song itself to a pet rant about domestic violence. But I do think the lyrics are indicative of the kind of situation where a father murders his family to 'protect' them or to spite their mother (although in this scenario she's already dead so...). It's Eminem's prerogative to work out his demons in song, as he is, nominally, an artist. Yet I think that when people talk about this kind of situation hypothetically and even mockingly - especially when they're in the public eye - they should be aware that it's a horrific reality for many women and children.
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boxspelunker
12/02/09

@kyotokitty: That's true. I mean, sure, he has the right to work out his demons in whatever non-violent way he chooses. Or violent, as in a literal punching bag or whatever, that's fine, too. Lots of people work out angry through exercise. It's just so... I dunno, premeditative to me that it's creepy :( I wonder how aware he is of domestic violence and how it affects people? I wouldn't be surprised to learn he came from an abusive home, but it makes me think about the cycle of violence and how victims often become the abusers.
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MargaretMoony
11/07/09

In reply to 5 Reasons The Cleveland Serial Killer Case Flew Under The Radar
You think law enforcement would have learned from the Green River Killer, but nooooooo.... #clevelandserialkiller
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chamomile
11/07/09

In reply to 5 Reasons The Cleveland Serial Killer Case Flew Under The Radar
Michael Moore did a little segment on his tv show TV Nation, called "The Serial Killer Next Door" where he hired a single guy to move into a residential neighborhood and do as many creepy, weird things as he could to see if anyone noticed or did anything. And the answer is "No. No one cared." Even digging holes in his yard at midnight didn't do it. Neither did playing children's music at top volume in the yard even though he didn't have any children. #clevelandserialkiller
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maude_flanders
11/07/09

In reply to 5 Reasons The Cleveland Serial Killer Case Flew Under The Radar
All of these cases have changed my views of why women should learn how to use firearms.

It seems ludicrous. Discounting police incompetence, indifference, abuse of power, and plain old bad luck (they can't be everywhere, all of the time), how can we expect the police to protect us--wait five minutes for them to show up when an ex is threatening to torch our house---when seconds count?

And after this and the Jaycee Dugard case (and incidentally, Jeffrey Dahmer...one of his victims had been drugged, escaped, and was wandering down the street naked when a mother and daughter found him, called the police about someone who looked like a victim of SOMETHING, and the cops laughed it off when Dahmer showed up to collect his "lover"), how can anyone trust the police to deal with violent crime?

Where's the line between an honest, tragic mistake, and plain old incompetence?

No wonder people are terrified and confounded by sex offenders.
Some of them are labeled "sex offenders" for something that doesn't pose a threat to people (statutory rape between a 19 year old guy and a 15 year old gf), some of them abuse family members (not to minimize familial abuse, but admittedly, it's logically less frightening than random crimes to the public), but then some of them are people like THIS. Where the fuck were the people who were supposed to monitor this guy? Should he REALLY have been out of jail (I ask that b/c I'm sure there are plenty of former rapists who, against my own instincts and despite my disgust, are not re-offending....yet).

No wonder mayors pass half-baked, counter intuitive ordinances driving people labeled "sex offenders" from living within city limits.

The police and the parole officers here were fatally incompetent.

These cases make me feel helpless. I'm shocked when the authorities give a shit and luck favors them with evidence so that they're actually able to investigate and prosecute someone like this fruitfully...these assholes weren't even trying, but they still have the badges. What is a frightened taxpayer supposed to do? #clevelandserialkiller
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