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New York, 10:52 AM
Sun Nov 22
23 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of RiloKilo RiloKilo
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    Why are young male applicants rarer? Are there just less men... in the world? Applying to college? What? #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Jenloveshercurves promoted this comment RiloKilo was starred RiloKilo was unstarred
    Image of Jenloveshercurves Jenloveshercurves
    11/12/09

    @RiloKilo: Male applications to college have kind of plateaued (or risen just a little bit) while female applications have climbed exponentially. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Jenloveshercurves was starred Jenloveshercurves was unstarred
    Image of Ginmar Rienne Ginmar Rienne
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    How come this kind of thing didn't bother people when it was men outnumbering women? Where were they then? #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Alys Brangwin can't stop the beat promoted this comment Ginmar Rienne was starred Ginmar Rienne was unstarred
    Image of Jenloveshercurves Jenloveshercurves
    11/12/09

    @Ginmar Rienne: Probably advocating for womens entrance into college and making universities coed. Higher education isn't a zero sum game. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Jenloveshercurves was starred Jenloveshercurves was unstarred
    Image of Ginmar Rienne Ginmar Rienne
    11/12/09

    @Jenloveshercurves: I doubt the same people were working for that cause. This smacks of MRA to me. For them, it is indeed a zero sum game. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Ginmar Rienne was starred Ginmar Rienne was unstarred
    Image of Jenloveshercurves Jenloveshercurves
    11/12/09

    @Ginmar Rienne: I work in higher education and I can assure you that it's definitely not an MRA issue, but a real concern for us. Schools are constantly trying to attract students that they feel they are missing in their populations. One area that is really concerning for admissions officers is attracting minority male students (and the abysmal numbers of minority men who apply to college are probably a huge part of this problem). Schools are trying to find out why men aren't applying to college in the same numbers as women and why fewer qualified male candidates exist in the pool. If colleges want to educate as many people as possible (and they do), these sort of things have to be studied. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Jenloveshercurves was starred Jenloveshercurves was unstarred
    Image of mizz2bee mizz2bee
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    Although my son grew up in Berkeley competing with both genders for high academics, at his high school in Indiana, he is one of two males on the A Honor Roll. I think we are losing an entire generation of boys. The rest of his class care more about sports, video games and hooking up. My son cares about all of this too, but is smart enough to see that good grades will equal college and opportunities. What is the problem with our boys theses days?

    On a lighter note, my son WANTS a 2:1 ratio for girls because he knows that he will get more dates. he is a planner, that one. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Her Grace promoted this comment mizz2bee was starred mizz2bee was unstarred
    Image of Lizabelle Lizabelle
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    I'm just going to come out and say it, and I know a lot of you won't like it, but here it is:

    My brother is smarter than me.
    Always has been, always will be.

    And it's not because he's a dude and it's not because he got more love, funding, hugs or kisses. It's because some magical mist of parental DNA came together and produced someone with off-the-charts intelligence, the will to work hard for his grades and (most importantly if you ask me) someone who loves to learn.

    He's smarter, he works harder and he still didn't get into Northwestern. I spent my early years in Special Education and got into Northwestern. Never really understood that. But now we both attend large public universities and we're happy, so life is good. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Lizabelle was starred Lizabelle was unstarred
    Image of FleurDeLis FleurDeLis
    11/11/09

    @Lizabelle: Who is older? This world changes dramatically from year to year, and often when people compare themselves to another in this process, the real answer is that the admissions world changes on a dime. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    FleurDeLis was starred FleurDeLis was unstarred
    Image of Lizabelle Lizabelle
    11/11/09

    @FleurDeLis: I'm older by two years. And I know that it was probably an issue of application-al math, but it seems like some of this thread is all down on the brothers, you know?

    So I thought I'd throw in some love for mine. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Lizabelle was starred Lizabelle was unstarred
    Image of FleurDeLis FleurDeLis
    11/11/09

    @Lizabelle: I hear ya. My brother, too, is vastly more academically intelligent than me. I, however, am more socially intelligent. It's all good.

    But I can tell you that two years, particularly in the last 15 years, can make a huge difference in college admissions. I used to use 5 years of history as a way to predict outcomes. Now I use maybe 2 years of history with a lot of to-the-minute info to help predict outcomes for kids. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Snowbunny promoted this comment FleurDeLis was starred FleurDeLis was unstarred
    Image of Snowbunny Snowbunny
    11/11/09

    @FleurDeLis: It is the reverse for my brother and I. He is socially adapt and has friends and was good at sports and I, well, I am good at puzzles and reading and being responsible. It sucks because with my parents, I've been compared to a 4.0 scale my whole life while he has been a 3.0.

    Then when college time came, I had a 3.8 GPA and didn't get into the school I wanted that he had been wait-listed at with a 2.8 three years earlier. Now we go to the same university and he's a 6th year senior and we're in classes together. I'm still better at being responsible, though. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Snowbunny was starred Snowbunny was unstarred
    Image of Atomic Bowling Atomic Bowling
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    Like it or not, it's still the case that in the working world women do not achieve the same salary or status as their male counterparts with the same qualifications. I know that I was aware as a teen that attending college would be necessary for me to have any kind of real career, and I think a lot of other girls get this message (particularly white girls, which is another huge problem). Boys are increasingly told that college will be necessary for them, but that fact doesn't illustrate itself in the adults they see.

    Of all the adults that I knew as a child/teen, the men were invariably making quite a bit more than the women, regardless of their level of education. I know that there are many other factors influencing the relative success of the genders in academic environments, but I also really feel that this is one people aren't looking at. We tell children that they can all succeed, and they can all be whatever they want when they grow up, but then they look at the world around them and see - white men, being generally successful regardless; white/asian women and asian men, being successful with higher education; pretty much everybody else struggling to get the higher education and get the resulting success that supposedly comes with it. While I do think diversity on campus is the best situation, I don't see how this trend of imbalance can be resolved without addressing the disparity in final outcomes after education for different groups of people. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Alys Brangwin can't stop the beat promoted this comment Atomic Bowling was starred Atomic Bowling was unstarred
    Image of thesciencegirl thesciencegirl
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    I wonder how many of the people concerned about the gender imbalance in education care that young men of color are disproprotionately affected? Is this really about equal opportunities, or is it about white males staying at the top of the heap? #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    thesciencegirl was starred thesciencegirl was unstarred
    Image of Jenloveshercurves Jenloveshercurves
    11/11/09

    @thesciencegirl: As someone who is a professional in higher education, I can tell you this is a really big concern for us. Minority men are dealing with a huge set of factors that are keeping them from being successful in college. One of my colleges (who happens to be a minority male from inner-city L.A.) is studying this right now. He wants to learn how we can get more minority men in the pipeline and keep them in college. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Jenloveshercurves was starred Jenloveshercurves was unstarred
    Image of PetiteGal PetiteGal
    11/11/09

    @Jenloveshercurves: Here in Ontario, Canada, elementary education programs have been trying to recruit males for a very long time - applications often say that they encourage males to apply (last I checked, anyway).

    On minority men in college: It's up to the parents and the rest of the community to influence them. In Asian culture, parents (and the community at large) often have a "go to college or else" attitude. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    thesciencegirl promoted this comment PetiteGal was starred PetiteGal was unstarred
    Image of thesciencegirl thesciencegirl
    11/11/09

    @PetiteGal: Yeah, they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    thesciencegirl was starred thesciencegirl was unstarred
    Image of Jenloveshercurves Jenloveshercurves
    11/11/09

    @PetiteGal: I don't think that it's just up to the community or parents or culture. In the United States there are very real barriers to minority men entering college that have nothing to do with the community or culture and mainly have to do with institutional racism. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Jenloveshercurves was starred Jenloveshercurves was unstarred
    Image of PetiteGal PetiteGal
    11/11/09

    @Jenloveshercurves: Asian American men are "minorities" and most do not have so-called "barriers." #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    PetiteGal was starred PetiteGal was unstarred
    Image of FleurDeLis FleurDeLis
    11/11/09

    @thesciencegirl: Lack of men of color in college admissions is a major concern in my field. We used to call a Hispanic/AfAm/AmInd male w/ good testing and grades "the unicorn of admissions." I spend my summers doing pro bono work with organizations that help those targeted kids stay in high school, apply to college and graduate. Many of my colleagues do this type of pro bono work, too. This is a big deal. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    thesciencegirl promoted this comment FleurDeLis was starred FleurDeLis was unstarred
    Image of thesciencegirl thesciencegirl
    11/11/09

    @FleurDeLis, @Jenlovershercurves: That's really good to hear! #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    thesciencegirl was starred thesciencegirl was unstarred
    Image of Jenloveshercurves Jenloveshercurves
    11/11/09

    @PetiteGal: I can't speak for Canada but in the United States, asians are considered the "model minority," which is also racist. Because there is a societal expectation (not just a cultural expectation of their families or cultural/racial groups but really all of the Unites States) that they exceed in school, but of course within a very narrow framework, they do. In contrast, black and latino men are considered to be dangerous as a whole and entirely incapable of education (this isn't something that is necessarily openly held by individuals in this country, but is reflected in U.S. institutions). This comes from a racist history in the United States and leads to black and latino men being incarcerated at much higher rates and for things that white young men are not incarcerated for (example: a white young man would be viewed as making a youthful mistake for possession of marijuana while a black male would be considered a dangerous menace). In addition to that, black and Latino men suffer from racist housing and educational practices in the U.S. that Asian American young men do not, generally, as they have a different racist baggage they carry in the United States. Black people in the U.S. suffer greatly from the shadow of both slavery and Jim Crow laws that have created huge racial segregation in this country. Latino men suffer from racist baggage because in the United States, many institutions consider Latino's to be interlopers and not "real" Americans. Racism in the U.S. is really difficult to understand and pretty far reaching. Since you live in Canada, it might be beneficial if you don't operate from your own framework when talking about institutional racism in the United States. Canada is a different beast than the U.S. for sure and I don't feign to know enough about Canadian culture to comment on the countries institutional racism even though I did grow up 25 minutes from the Canadian border and could see Canada from my house! :) #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Jenloveshercurves was starred Jenloveshercurves was unstarred
    Image of thesciencegirl thesciencegirl
    11/11/09

    @Jenloveshercurves: Thank you for breaking it down like that. I started to explain the whole model minority thing several times, but lost the energy halfway through. I just want to co-sign everything you said. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    thesciencegirl was starred thesciencegirl was unstarred
    Image of birdnerd birdnerd
    11/11/09

    @PetiteGal: this bothers me because it implies that certain minority groups do not value education like Asian communities do. This is a common mindset for educators even, and results in setting low expectations for Latino students, which then leads to lower performance. Also, looking at Latino and Asian immigrants, you CANNOT compare the cultural value of education when these two groups differ in the socio-economic status of the immigrant families. It is well established that families from lower socio-ecnomic status place less emphasis on education than middle class families. NPR recently did an excellent piece on education and race focusing on Latino and Asian students. I'm Latina, and there is definitely a "go to college or else"attitude in my family, but there was also a "get a scholarship or there is no way we can afford to send you to college" attitude. So not only did we have to perform well enough to get in, but well enough to get it paid for; this is one reason why the go to college or else attitude is lacking in so many minority communities- getting into college is only half the battle, and when you know that, it makes you more likely to give up before you even start. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    thesciencegirl promoted this comment birdnerd was starred birdnerd was unstarred
    Image of thesciencegirl thesciencegirl
    11/11/09

    @DaphneNiobe: "there is definitely a "go to college or else"attitude in my family, but there was also a "get a scholarship or there is no way we can afford to send you to college" attitude."

    That was my experience exactly. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    thesciencegirl was starred thesciencegirl was unstarred
    Image of birdnerd birdnerd
    11/11/09

    @thesciencegirl: Yeah, for me and my three sisters. My mother considers it her biggest acheivement that we all went to university. It bothers me, this stereotype about Latinos not encouraging education in the family. I have met some many Latino/as who are ALL ABOUT education for their children. Culturally, education has a very high status in Latin culture. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    birdnerd was starred birdnerd was unstarred
    Image of thesciencegirl thesciencegirl
    11/11/09

    @birdnerd: and FWIW, the person who told me "You are going to college and you're getting scholarships" was my black father, but we all know black males don't care about education either... #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    thesciencegirl was starred thesciencegirl was unstarred
    Image of Kajj Kajj
    11/11/09

    @PetiteGal: It seems a little unsavory to me to assume that Asian Americans and, say, African Americans would have exactly the same factors at play in their cultural relationship with higher education just because neither of them are white. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    thesciencegirl promoted this comment Kajj was starred Kajj was unstarred
    Image of PetiteGal PetiteGal
    11/11/09

    @Kajj: Then maybe we should stop using "minority" in general. When one uses this term in this part of the world, it usually means "anyone who does not identify as white/seen as white by society." Maybe we should be using "disadvantaged people/groups" (or something to that extent)? #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    PetiteGal was starred PetiteGal was unstarred
    Image of birdnerd birdnerd
    11/11/09

    @thesciencegirl: whats really disturbing is that I have heard educators express the view that education valued in asian cultures, but not black or latin cultures. Which of course, means they are setting different expectations for different groups of students. And students will rarely exceed the expectations that are set for them. FYI, I am a sciencegirl too:) #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    birdnerd was starred birdnerd was unstarred
    Image of frozengrapes frozengrapes
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    I don't really see the difference between this and affirmative action. I support affirmative action because it promotes a diversity of voices and backgrounds in the classroom...colleges should try to be as representative of society as possible (racially, economically, sexually, etc.). Thus, I support favoring male applicants if it evens out the gap.

    For those of you who keep talking about "whining," affirmative action today is used to improve diversity, not make reparations. If colleges were attempting to make up for wrongs in the past, then Jews and Asians wouldn't experience such reverse discrimination at elite schools.

    Note, men still have it tougher in admissions at some colleges...especially MIT and Caltech. I know it's easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to say, "Well, a girl scored slightly higher than the boy...why does he deserve to get in? She worked for it."

    If you replaced girl with white kid and boy with black kid...would y'all be saying the same things? #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Katxyz promoted this comment frozengrapes was starred frozengrapes was unstarred
    Image of Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
    11/11/09

    @frozengrapes: 'If you replaced girl with white kid and boy with black kid...would y'all be saying the same things?'

    If a formerly all-white college had slowly become made up of more non-whites than whites, and students were actually avoiding it because of its ethnic make-up, no, I don't think anyone would be saying the same things. Perhaps they'd be wondering why the university's reputation would be based on its ethnic make-up, or suggest that any previously implemented affirmative action rules in favor of non-whites be dropped. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was starred Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was unstarred
    Image of GoldenRatioφ (aka -girl11) GoldenRatioφ (aka -girl11)
    11/11/09

    @frozengrapes: Yes, but this is what I'd like to ask the men. In one of my classes in undergrad we were discussing affirmative action, because there had just been an on-campus protest of affirmative action policies, and one of the students in my class was in charge of it. The professor had a memo that the school sent the faculty regarding admission practices, which did look at factors such as gender, race and socioeconomic background in making some admission decisions. The guy in charge of the protest freaked out that the school was not only giving preference to minorities, but also to women. Then, of course, the professor informed him that it was actually *men* who were given the edge in admissions. Of course, the guy then backpeddled and said that was "different" because white men were experiencing discrimination right now, and the school was just trying to rectify that.

    Also, I don't know about MIT, but my understanding is that Caltech very clearly has NO affirmative action type policies, either for minorities, or for women. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    GoldenRatioφ (aka -girl11) was starred GoldenRatioφ (aka -girl11) was unstarred
    Image of thesciencegirl thesciencegirl
    11/11/09

    @frozengrapes: Classroom diversity may be your reason for supporting affirmative action (and it ranks among mine), but it is not the sole or even primary reason for the establishment of AA programs. Penny commented on this below. AA was historically conceived to essentially level the playing field and provide equal opportunity, with regards to race and gender inequality. LBJ said it well...

    "Nothing is more freighted with meaning for our own destiny than the revolution of the Negro American...In far too many ways American Negroes have been another nation: deprived of freedom, crippled by hatred, the doors of opportunity closed to hope...But freedom is not enough. You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please. You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, 'you are free to compete with all the others,' and still justly believe that you have been completely fair...This is the next and the more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity. We seek not just legal equity but human ability, not just equality as a right and a theory but equality as a fact and equality as a result...To this end equal opportunity is essential, but not enough, not enough." #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    thesciencegirl was starred thesciencegirl was unstarred
    Image of FleurDeLis FleurDeLis
    11/11/09

    @frozengrapes: yes, I would be saying the same thing. Because as a professional, I can tell you that the disparity between denied girls and admitted boys is dramatic, far more dramatic than any disparity I've seen in white vs. non-white applicants. Some incredibly weak boys get into great schools only because they are boys, nothing else to point to. The rampant and dramatic discrimination against girls in the college admissions process is nothing like we've seen since the 1950s, when colleges did codify who they were keeping out. From my professional experience, I can tell you that having a dick is worth about 150 SAT points, on the conservative side. Colleges still want diversity on their campuses -- racial, religious, geographical and experiential -- but people would be up in arms if they knew the significant measurable difference in how boys are girls are treated in the admissions process. I hate that the advice I give my girls is very different than the advice I give my boys.

    And Jews and Asians do NOT experience "reverse discrimination" at elite colleges. The numbers simply do not bear that out. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Her Grace promoted this comment FleurDeLis was starred FleurDeLis was unstarred
    Image of Bitingpika Bitingpika
    11/11/09

    @frozengrapes: Let's talk about equity and fairness when men are a minority in the Senate, make less money than women, and do more than 50% of the work in the home. Until then, I'm saving my sympathy for the people who don't actually run the world. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Cimorene promoted this comment Bitingpika was starred Bitingpika was unstarred
    Image of frozengrapes frozengrapes
    11/11/09

    @FleurDeLis: Since Jews and Asians are well-represented at colleges, they have it harder than WASPs (I know this is a blanket statement and not true universally).

    [www.asianamericanalliance.com] #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    frozengrapes was starred frozengrapes was unstarred
    Image of frozengrapes frozengrapes
    11/11/09

    @thesciencegirl: Yes, AA was established for that reason, but to say that colleges still maintain AA to make up for wrongs in the past is naive, at best. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    frozengrapes was starred frozengrapes was unstarred
    Image of frozengrapes frozengrapes
    11/11/09

    @GoldenRatioφ (aka -girl11): Well, I am sure there are men out there in favor of these policies simply because it benefits them. The dude you are discussing sounds like a douche. However, it's just as self-serving (to me) for women to be in favor of AA and not this. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    frozengrapes was starred frozengrapes was unstarred
    Image of thesciencegirl thesciencegirl
    11/11/09

    @frozengrapes: [www.racialicious.com] #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    thesciencegirl was starred thesciencegirl was unstarred
    Image of thesciencegirl thesciencegirl
    11/11/09

    @frozengrapes: AA continues to serve a function because fundamental inequalities in opportunity persist. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    thesciencegirl was starred thesciencegirl was unstarred
    Image of Jetgirly Jetgirly
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    I'm a special education teacher. I teach in a program for ninth-graders who can't read and write (or are at least five grade levels below expectations) BUT who have very high IQs. We're in a fairly wealthly community (my school's catchment area has an average household income of about $88,000). There are ten spots in my program. Last year I had seven boys and three girls. This year, I have nine boys. Of the students I've taught, only two of the girls might ever be on the path to university OR college (the two are very distinct in Canada). When I meet with others who work in this program at other schools, they echo the same sentiments. Here are some of our observations...

    - Girls who struggle in school at an early age are often pressured to improve academically. Boys who struggle are often told to redirect their efforts into sports. ALL of the boys in my program last year believed they didn't need to know how to read and write because they were going to become pro athletes. One of the boys in my program this year believes that he is going to become an NHL player. He is fifteen and he has NEVER played hockey. Not even once.

    - From a young age, girls are taught to be polite, do as they're told, etc. For a learning-disabled student, this has benefits in the long run as they are more likely to sit quietly in class, pay attention when the teacher is talking, accept the help they are offered and at least attempt their classwork.

    - There is a serious cycle with low-achieving boys and video games. They can't do their homework, so they retreat to their rooms to play video games, and they become so hooked on video games that they refuse to leave their rooms to do homework later. They also stay up too late and get less sleep, and I personally believe that the amount of gaming these guys do damages their developing eyes (most of my male students have tracking issues and/or dyslexia). After a while their parents just want to end the struggle and put a TV in the kids' rooms. ALL of the boys I have taught in this program have TVs in their bedrooms. NONE of the girls have had TVs in their rooms. Girls, on the other hand, use social networking sites where they're doing a lot of reading and writing. The "cool" games on social networking sites often teach skills like responsibility (manage a farm! look after a pet!) and money management (open a restaurant and turn a profit!). The girls I've taught have also had interests outside sports and video games: some are in band, one apprentices at a hair salon, lots are into drawing and painting.

    The simple fact of the matter is that the boys I teach DON'T belong in university. Not because of who they are, but 70% because of how their parents raised them and 30% because of choices they have made as adolescences (I do believe in holding them partially accountable at this age). The movement needs to happen at the home level and the effects will be felt in a generation. Parents of boys need to access the resources that are already available, the importance of academics needs to be stressed in all elements of daily life, and teachers need to have more freedom to speak openly with parents about the home-school partnership. I don't know a single teacher who isn't working their ass off to accommodate the needs of their male students, but I only know a handful of parents of struggling male students who are still making an effort (most gave up in the fourth grade and turned the XBox onto perma-on). #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    thesciencegirl promoted this comment Edited by Jetgirly at 11/11/09 1:44 PM Jetgirly was starred Jetgirly was unstarred
    Image of Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
    11/11/09

    @Jetgirly: I definitely think a HUGE part of it is the socialization of girls to sit still, follow orders and seek approval from adults. We've spent so much time helping girls become 'like boys' (as in, how they're socialized e.g. playing spots, being aggressive) the idea that boys should become like girls has fallen by the wayside. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was starred Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was unstarred
    Image of smirkette smirkette
    11/11/09

    @Jetgirly: Hell yes to all of this. Former inner city high school teacher here, and everything you say is spot on.

    I'd also like to add for boys of color, there's a lot of social stigma attached to doing well academically. Many say it's selling out or "acting white."

    So much of their social standing revolves around showing no fear or weakness. That means you can't get an answer wrong in class, so why try? Better to say that you don't just care rather than risk the discomfort of making a mistake and having to be corrected.

    Learning is hard work for most people and doesn't come easy. A lot of my 9th grade boys came in with a 5th grade reading level, few study skills, no patience with themselves when learning new things, and a negative self-image when it comes to school.

    It takes parents and teachers a lot of time and energy to help these kids rebuild that image, and unfortunately, most of the parents I worked with didn't have either the time (working 2-3 jobs to support the family) or the will to help get their kids on the right path. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    J.D.Regent promoted this comment smirkette was starred smirkette was unstarred
    Image of DannyOcean DannyOcean
    11/11/09

    @Jetgirly: This is incredibly interesting to me. While it's dangerous to broad-brush certain traits as "boy-traits" and "girl-traits", they are true in a generalized sense. Younger girls typically suffer from many developmental disorders at lower rates. They're told to be polite and do their homework, while boys are more prone to forget it completely.

    This mirrors a study that was done a few years ago regarding gender and achievement. Basically, the researchers ended up thinking that IQ and achievement have the same average across genders, but that the men have "fatter tails". Statistically, this means that there are more genius IQ males (statistically true) and more mentally retarded males (used in the definitional sense, and also true). Males dominate abstract mathematical thought fields (not a simple issue, btw) but they also have like 10 times the prison population and far more developmental disorders.

    I have no idea where I was going with this, but I find it all very interesting. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Jenloveshercurves promoted this comment DannyOcean was starred DannyOcean was unstarred
    Image of Jetgirly Jetgirly
    11/11/09

    @smirkette: And the really sad thing is that in my program, most of the boys have stay-at-home moms, money to play on community sports teams, expensive designer clothes, the latest iPods, etc. They even receive laptops from the school that they can take home (the computers are loaded with assistive technology in addition to regular programs)! In cases where both parents work, at least one parent is always home by the early evening. The parents I work with DO have the time and resources to help their kids... they just lack the energy and will. I cannot count the number of times I've heard parents say, "All he does all night is sit in his room and watch his bigscreen TV and play XBox. He won't come out to o his homework. I just don't know what to do! I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA why he won't come out and do his homework!" #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Jetgirly was starred Jetgirly was unstarred
    Image of Jetgirly Jetgirly
    11/11/09

    @DannyOcean: "They're told to be polite and do their homework, while boys are more prone to forget it completely."

    Just an interesting aside: All of the students in my program are given laptops with wireless internet access. All of my students have wireless internet at home. I maintain a website with multiple features, including a clickable calendar where any day an assignment is due is bolded, you can click on that date and it will describe the assignment and link to online instructions, exemplars, etc. You can also view by week or month to get a bigger picture of what is coming up and when. The website also has games that support our curricular outcomes (Exponent Battleship! Figurative Language Who Wants to be a Millionaire!), scanned copies of completed work/worksheets from higher-achieving students, PDFs of every chapter of every Grade 9 textbook (legal!), copies of PowerPoints shown in class, videos of teacher demonstrations/explanations, etc. In addition to this online resource, I phone and/or email home to every family each time a major assignment is assigned, when its due date approaches and when it is overdue. (This is why there's only space for ten in my program!). Furthermore, right from the start we establish with the parents that we don't want a learning-disabled student to struggle with something for six hours when a classmate could finish in five minutes- the expectation is that the students will work for twenty or thirty minutes, a few times each week, and submit the amount they were able to complete (keeping in mind all assignments are already modified based on their individual abilities). Even with all of these supports... NOTHING. EVER. GETS. DONE. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Jetgirly was starred Jetgirly was unstarred
    Image of hilkaryic hilkaryic
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    Does it matter if the entire school is 50/50, 60/40, or 75/25, when the students in the majors are completely tilted one way? I found that politics and history classes were 75-80% male and the English and arts classes were almost entirely female. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    hilkaryic was starred hilkaryic was unstarred
    Image of babyruthless babyruthless
    11/11/09

    @hilkaryic: I'm an instructor at a 54/46 school (female:male) in the department of economics. My class (at least at the beginning of the semester)--10/90. Ouch. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    wtfox?! promoted this comment babyruthless was starred babyruthless was unstarred
    Image of hilkaryic hilkaryic
    11/11/09

    @babyruthless: excatly. If you're going to work so hard at getting a gender balance for the school, they should concentrate on making sure the classes are just as mixed. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    hilkaryic was starred hilkaryic was unstarred
    Image of marinav marinav
    11/11/09

    @hilkaryic: Kind of deviating from the subject, but it is interesting the gender perception of a major varies from country to country. I was seeing data from my home country, Brazil, and majors considered masculine or neutral in the U.S. are overwhelmingly female in Brazil, like Architecture (60% of its graduate is women), Dentistry (63%) or Psychology (90% female!). Even in what is, by Brazilian tradition, male majors are having a bigger and bigger female participation like Business (51% female) and Law (57%).

    The interesting thing is the salarial gender gap in Brazil is as wide as the American. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Calraigh promoted this comment marinav was starred marinav was unstarred
    Image of desertbloom79 desertbloom79
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    So a female works her ass off, and studies much harder than her brother, because she knows that later, in the workforce after college, she will have to be twice as smart to get half the recognition. She succeeds in kicking said brother's ass in grades, test scoring, and extracurricular activities, all while probably doing more household chores and without as much recognition from the parents... ... ... but in the end he even gets preference on the college app.
    Hmm ... Yeah- that's pretty much how it works outside of college as well.
    Sorry, not much empathy in this corner. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    dancingteacups promoted this comment desertbloom79 was starred desertbloom79 was unstarred
    Image of Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    But how will all these women find their husbands on campus (which is, I assume, what they're there to do)?! #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was starred Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was unstarred
    Image of mikskeezy mikskeezy
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    This reminds me of something that happened at my alma matter a few weeks ago. Apparently we're getting to have too many women on campus, so our (female) president (!!! ikr, the president!) said, "I got asked recently about special programs to get more women CEOs, and my response was let’s not worry about that because that will come in due course. The bigger worry is that we’ll wake up in 20 years and we will not have the benefit of enough male talent at the heads of companies and elsewhere."

    ...there are no words. I seriously thought she was either on crack, drunk, or joking and would come out and say later "JKZ GUISE, JKZ!". But she didn't.

    Here's our W ST department's response to the original article (I can't find the original one, it's buried in the Journal's website):
    [www.edmontonjournal.com] #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Sanfo promoted this comment mikskeezy was starred mikskeezy was unstarred
    Image of InABook InABook
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    We can stop thinking about college as a time and place of sexual awakening all we want, but unless extremly restrictive policies exist, it will continue to be a place of sexual awakening, and not addressing that will do nothing to help the situation. Acknowledging that sex and relationships are often very important to older adolescents (which people are often classified as fro ma developmental psych standpoint until in their early to mid twenties, when our brains make the switch from limbic to prefrontal logic) allows us to put into place programs and housing that encourage students to explore their sexuality in safe, respectful manners, rather than restricting them and forcing them to sneak around.

    Also, encouraging students to date off campus doesn't always work-- who else is around to date a college freshman or sophomore? You're considered too young for most of the young professionals in the area, and too old for the highschoolers. Everyone else your age is either at your college, another college with the same problems, or not on the college track, which is not dating material for a lot of people.
     Reply
    rah29 promoted this comment Edited by InABook at 11/11/09 1:37 PM InABook was starred InABook was unstarred
    Image of rah29 rah29
    11/11/09

    @InABook: There are plenty of good arguments in favour of trying to seek 'gender balance' on campuses (I'm not sure where I stand, personally), but sex isn't one of them. As one of those women's college grads that swear by the experience, I can assure you that we managed to have all kinds of exciting sexy sex, of both straight and gay variety. I believe the very loud moaning neighbours I always seemed to wind up with would also agree. No need to 'sneak around' either; we had a very relaxed guest policy! #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    rah29 was starred rah29 was unstarred
    Image of InABook InABook
    11/11/09

    @rah29: Oh, I didn't say sex was a good reason, just a reason, and that the article talked about it in a disingenuous way. Also, I'm so sorry you had loud moaning neighbors, ugh. I guess rudeness prevails regardless of the type of school!
    It's also awesome you had a relaxed guest policy; my school did too. But many schools friends went to did not-- to the point where at one school, i needed to sign in and sign out, and could only be in the dorm for two hours, and could not spend the night if I had wanted to, since I was the guest of a male. (I don't know if it was a coed dorm with same sex floor, or what, I wasn't interested in spending the night, so I didn't look into it."

    So, again-- your school sounds awesome, your floor mates sound awful, and it's great you were located somewhere where the straight gals could still manage to find male partners. But your experience isn't a universal. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    InABook was starred InABook was unstarred
    Image of Jenloveshercurves Jenloveshercurves
    11/11/09

    @InABook: @femme-bot: @nora charles: I was wondering if the administrator saying men aren't at their best when surrounded by all women were talking about men in the dating world. I work in higher education and there has been some research that shows that when men are in situations where they are clearly outnumbered by women, they start engaging in behavior that is actually dangerous for women. Because women are so accessible for sex, ect., they start to think of women even more as commodities and start doing things like assuming all of them are available or should be available for sex at all times. This leads to caddish behavior on the behalf of men and at the extreme a higher level of things like date rape because men no longer think that they have to ask or work from the assumption that women might not want sex. Colleges aren't just about learning in the classroom, colleges are about learning how to be an adult and part of that learning is developing healthy romantic relationships. So, the idea that we should be ignoring dating or other areas that students develop socially and just concentrate on learning in the classroom on college campuses is honestly, ludicrous (sorry Anna, but it is) and goes against everything American higher education stands for. Also, I went to college in an urban center and this did not lead to me dating outside of my college friends until after college when I started meeting young, college educated professionals who had moved to the city. I did date some college students from other colleges and universities in the area, but dating men who weren't in college or who weren't college bound I found to be difficult as I still do today. My college was 70% female. If we believe that women bring something different to education because they look at what they are learning through their experience as women, we have to believe that the opposite is true. Men will bring their own experience to the university setting and getting them to be a part of higher education is important to the overall education of everyone in a higher education setting. Maybe we should be concentrating on getting more men in the pipeline and asking questions like, "Why aren't men choosing higher education?" and "What can we do to get men to value higher education more?" In addition to looking at the sad but very real reasons that young minority men are not or cannot go to college. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Jenloveshercurves was starred Jenloveshercurves was unstarred
    Image of MissSunshine4812 MissSunshine4812
    11/11/09

    @Jenloveshercurves: Gee, that's a good point. I guess all us college-bound ladies should ask ourselves if we really need to go to college and contribute to sexual assault against other women. I mean, if I had any idea that my presence (and that of other women) would cause a spike in sexual assaults of women by men, I would have seriously thought about what I was doing!

    I'm sure these men wouldn't otherwise even dream of sexual assault, but there was just soooo much fresh pussy roaming around. I guess women should just ixnay on the higher education. Poor boys can't help themselves!

    /bitter sarcasm
     Reply
    Jenloveshercurves promoted this comment Edited by MissSunshine4812 at 11/11/09 6:08 PM MissSunshine4812 was starred MissSunshine4812 was unstarred
    Image of Jenloveshercurves Jenloveshercurves
    11/11/09

    @MissSunshine4812: That is not what I was saying at all and you seem to have missed my point. Over gender imbalance in either direction is not good for anyone's college experience unless you are choosing that by going to a single gender institution. Gender imbalance has led to a different kind of misogyny in many universities. Getting more men (and for that matter, more women) into college will be good for everyone involved. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Jenloveshercurves was starred Jenloveshercurves was unstarred
    Image of MissSunshine4812 MissSunshine4812
    11/11/09

    @Jenloveshercurves: I doubt anyone would care if the imbalance was about fewer women. What about the problems when there's drastically more men? I'm guessing increased sexual assault would be a side effect of that, too, because the problem isn't the women, it's the men who commit and are complicit with sexual assault.

    With your rationalization, I would hate to think what would happen if the general population began to skew dramatically female. Then I guess we'd have to think about aborting more female fetuses for the greater good, since all the surplus of women would be creating a baaaaaad environment for men, making them unable to thrive and also to not rape women.
     Reply
    Edited by MissSunshine4812 at 11/11/09 7:42 PM MissSunshine4812 was starred MissSunshine4812 was unstarred
    Image of Jenloveshercurves Jenloveshercurves
    11/11/09

    @MissSunshine4812: Point missed. Have I advocated for keeping women from college? Nope, you put those words in my mouth. I've said that we need to figure out why men aren't going to college and get them in the pipeline and help them to be successful while there. Administrators do care when not enough women are going to colleges, colleges and universities that concentrate on the hard sciences are constantly working to attract women to their universities. They spend much time and money trying to bring in female candidates, with some universities being really successful at this.

    Why shouldn't colleges and universities spend time looking to attract people that they are missing in their student populations? College is about learning from people with different experiences. One of the arguments for affirmative action is that diversity helps education. That has been proven to be true. Students benefit greatly from having to work with and learn from people different than themselves. Diversity aids education. If educators have argued for so long that having women in higher education makes higher education better (and it has), the opposite is also true. Having a strong male population in higher education makes for a better overall educational experience. Losing that perspective is bad for education.

    As a college administrator, I have seen the way that this imbalance has affected misogyny and created a different kind of rape culture. Yeah, there are other kinds of misogyny on other campuses with different situations and the rape culture plays out in a different form there, but gender imbalance has created a new beast in dating culture. Is it wrong for me to point that out? No. Am I giving men who rape a pass? No. I'm talking about the creation of a new kind of culture which has exacerbated aspects of rape culture in a different way. Seriously, knee-jerk responses are not helpful. Saying I want to abort female fetuses because I believe that we as a culture need to look at the reasons why men aren't choosing college? Sort of like comparing Obama to Hitler. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Jenloveshercurves was starred Jenloveshercurves was unstarred
    Image of MissSunshine4812 MissSunshine4812
    11/11/09

    @Jenloveshercurves: Well, thanks for the long, somewhat irrelevant answer. My assumption that you would prefer less women in colleges is implied by the fact that you want more men. Invoking Godwin's law is just pathetic. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    MissSunshine4812 was starred MissSunshine4812 was unstarred
    Image of Jenloveshercurves Jenloveshercurves
    11/11/09

    @MissSunshine4812: Invoking Godwin's law is necessary when being accused of wanting to abort female fetuses because they are female. Wanting more men in college does not mean that you want less women. As a higher education administrator, I want more people to go to college. If men aren't choosing college at the same rate that women are or aren't able to, I want to know why and how to get them there. Not listening to someone's argument is pathetic. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Jenloveshercurves was starred Jenloveshercurves was unstarred
    Image of DannyOcean DannyOcean
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    Reading the comments for this article, there's unsurprisingly a large amount of strained and faulty logic used to justify positions on both sides of this argument. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Penny promoted this comment DannyOcean was starred DannyOcean was unstarred
    Image of Penny Penny
    11/11/09

    @DannyOcean: Care to elaborate? #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    Penny was starred Penny was unstarred
    Image of DannyOcean DannyOcean
    11/11/09

    @Penny: Sure. I anticipate getting flamed to a crisp, but who knows?

    One example is that multiple people have posted something like this "Gee, i wonder why it took so long to get women equal into these colleges, but as soon as a small disparity happens in favor of women, everyone jumps?!"

    This is either willful doublethink or just dumb. It took forever to get women into college because nobody gave a shit about equality for hundreds of years. Once society got on the bandwagon of "hey, gender equality is probably a good thing", then it happened pretty quickly. And now that we're striving that goal, when people see it in the other direction, they'll try to correct it.

    And what's the insinuation? That because a patriarchal society denied something of women for a long time, that any potential male problems should be ignored for an equally long time? #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    DannyOcean was starred DannyOcean was unstarred
    Image of jennyOH jennyOH
    11/11/09

    In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
    I heard this story on the way to work and am really glad you covered it. I would have been interested to see (and hope there may be some discussion of this in the comments) the piece address my initial reaction: "Well, of course the more qualified candidate should be admitted! Who cares if that leads to mostly-female colleges?" followed closely by "But what if that same statement ended with "Who cares if that leads to mostly-white colleges"?

    I don't know the answer to this. I don't even know if it's a relevant question, since the gender disparity doesn't have the same root causes as the race disparity addressed by Affirmative Action. But I do think that admitting more men is a knee-jerk reaction that salves the consciences of college admissions boards without addressing the real reasons why they are recieving fewer qualified male applicants, and whether it even matters. #genderincollegeadmissions
     Reply
    wtfox?! promoted this comment jennyOH was starred jennyOH was unstarred
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