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Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?

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thesciencegirl
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
I wonder how many of the people concerned about the gender imbalance in education care that young men of color are disproprotionately affected? Is this really about equal opportunities, or is it about white males staying at the top of the heap? #genderincollegeadmissions
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Jenloveshercurves
11/11/09

@thesciencegirl: As someone who is a professional in higher education, I can tell you this is a really big concern for us. Minority men are dealing with a huge set of factors that are keeping them from being successful in college. One of my colleges (who happens to be a minority male from inner-city L.A.) is studying this right now. He wants to learn how we can get more minority men in the pipeline and keep them in college. #genderincollegeadmissions
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PetiteGal
11/11/09

@Jenloveshercurves: Here in Ontario, Canada, elementary education programs have been trying to recruit males for a very long time - applications often say that they encourage males to apply (last I checked, anyway).

On minority men in college: It's up to the parents and the rest of the community to influence them. In Asian culture, parents (and the community at large) often have a "go to college or else" attitude. #genderincollegeadmissions
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thesciencegirl
11/11/09

@PetiteGal: Yeah, they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps. #genderincollegeadmissions
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Jenloveshercurves
11/11/09

@PetiteGal: I don't think that it's just up to the community or parents or culture. In the United States there are very real barriers to minority men entering college that have nothing to do with the community or culture and mainly have to do with institutional racism. #genderincollegeadmissions
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PetiteGal
11/11/09

@Jenloveshercurves: Asian American men are "minorities" and most do not have so-called "barriers." #genderincollegeadmissions
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FleurDeLis
11/11/09

@thesciencegirl: Lack of men of color in college admissions is a major concern in my field. We used to call a Hispanic/AfAm/AmInd male w/ good testing and grades "the unicorn of admissions." I spend my summers doing pro bono work with organizations that help those targeted kids stay in high school, apply to college and graduate. Many of my colleagues do this type of pro bono work, too. This is a big deal. #genderincollegeadmissions
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thesciencegirl
11/11/09

@FleurDeLis, @Jenlovershercurves: That's really good to hear! #genderincollegeadmissions
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Jenloveshercurves
11/11/09

@PetiteGal: I can't speak for Canada but in the United States, asians are considered the "model minority," which is also racist. Because there is a societal expectation (not just a cultural expectation of their families or cultural/racial groups but really all of the Unites States) that they exceed in school, but of course within a very narrow framework, they do. In contrast, black and latino men are considered to be dangerous as a whole and entirely incapable of education (this isn't something that is necessarily openly held by individuals in this country, but is reflected in U.S. institutions). This comes from a racist history in the United States and leads to black and latino men being incarcerated at much higher rates and for things that white young men are not incarcerated for (example: a white young man would be viewed as making a youthful mistake for possession of marijuana while a black male would be considered a dangerous menace). In addition to that, black and Latino men suffer from racist housing and educational practices in the U.S. that Asian American young men do not, generally, as they have a different racist baggage they carry in the United States. Black people in the U.S. suffer greatly from the shadow of both slavery and Jim Crow laws that have created huge racial segregation in this country. Latino men suffer from racist baggage because in the United States, many institutions consider Latino's to be interlopers and not "real" Americans. Racism in the U.S. is really difficult to understand and pretty far reaching. Since you live in Canada, it might be beneficial if you don't operate from your own framework when talking about institutional racism in the United States. Canada is a different beast than the U.S. for sure and I don't feign to know enough about Canadian culture to comment on the countries institutional racism even though I did grow up 25 minutes from the Canadian border and could see Canada from my house! :) #genderincollegeadmissions
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thesciencegirl
11/11/09

@Jenloveshercurves: Thank you for breaking it down like that. I started to explain the whole model minority thing several times, but lost the energy halfway through. I just want to co-sign everything you said. #genderincollegeadmissions
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birdnerd
11/11/09

@PetiteGal: this bothers me because it implies that certain minority groups do not value education like Asian communities do. This is a common mindset for educators even, and results in setting low expectations for Latino students, which then leads to lower performance. Also, looking at Latino and Asian immigrants, you CANNOT compare the cultural value of education when these two groups differ in the socio-economic status of the immigrant families. It is well established that families from lower socio-ecnomic status place less emphasis on education than middle class families. NPR recently did an excellent piece on education and race focusing on Latino and Asian students. I'm Latina, and there is definitely a "go to college or else"attitude in my family, but there was also a "get a scholarship or there is no way we can afford to send you to college" attitude. So not only did we have to perform well enough to get in, but well enough to get it paid for; this is one reason why the go to college or else attitude is lacking in so many minority communities- getting into college is only half the battle, and when you know that, it makes you more likely to give up before you even start. #genderincollegeadmissions
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thesciencegirl
11/11/09

@DaphneNiobe: "there is definitely a "go to college or else"attitude in my family, but there was also a "get a scholarship or there is no way we can afford to send you to college" attitude."

That was my experience exactly. #genderincollegeadmissions
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birdnerd
11/11/09

@thesciencegirl: Yeah, for me and my three sisters. My mother considers it her biggest acheivement that we all went to university. It bothers me, this stereotype about Latinos not encouraging education in the family. I have met some many Latino/as who are ALL ABOUT education for their children. Culturally, education has a very high status in Latin culture. #genderincollegeadmissions
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thesciencegirl
11/11/09

@birdnerd: and FWIW, the person who told me "You are going to college and you're getting scholarships" was my black father, but we all know black males don't care about education either... #genderincollegeadmissions
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Kajj
11/11/09

@PetiteGal: It seems a little unsavory to me to assume that Asian Americans and, say, African Americans would have exactly the same factors at play in their cultural relationship with higher education just because neither of them are white. #genderincollegeadmissions
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PetiteGal
11/11/09

@Kajj: Then maybe we should stop using "minority" in general. When one uses this term in this part of the world, it usually means "anyone who does not identify as white/seen as white by society." Maybe we should be using "disadvantaged people/groups" (or something to that extent)? #genderincollegeadmissions
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birdnerd
11/11/09

@thesciencegirl: whats really disturbing is that I have heard educators express the view that education valued in asian cultures, but not black or latin cultures. Which of course, means they are setting different expectations for different groups of students. And students will rarely exceed the expectations that are set for them. FYI, I am a sciencegirl too:) #genderincollegeadmissions
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Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
But how will all these women find their husbands on campus (which is, I assume, what they're there to do)?! #genderincollegeadmissions
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JP Meyer
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
I wonder how much of this is comes from that whole ZOMG CRISIS OF MASCULINITY! thing and how much of it comes from the fact that if there are overwhelmingly male colleges like service academies and tech schools, there are going to end up having to be schools that are going to be more heavily female, especially seeing how women have (I believe) at 55/45% advantage in college enrollment. #genderincollegeadmissions
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Le Kangourou de Kataroo
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
I went to a state school that naturally had a higher percentage of women to men (rumored to be be anywhere from 3:1 t0 3:2). Awesomely, our #1 department was biology.

Even though the campus was more girl-heavy, it never felt super unbalanced and was actually really nice. Plus if you REALLY wanted to complain about the dearth of boys, you could visit the military college down the road. #genderincollegeadmissions
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o-line
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
This gender balance issue blindsided for my tiny liberal arts Jesuit college. There was one co-ed dorm on campus, and too many ladies living on campus. I lived in said dorm on a formerly all male floor (on the male wing, with a male Resident Assistant) and the bathrooms weren't remodeled. No matter what they did, the urinals were used and the two stalls were completely inadequate for the capacity. On the plus side, sneaking boys in was a breeze. #genderincollegeadmissions
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EkaterinaBallerina
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
I went to Sarah Lawrence. When I was there the gender ratio was 70-30 in favor of females. The college also had a huge gay population, both male and female. As a female, I was in the majority, as a straight female I was in the minority. Did either bother me? Nope. Because while SLC has an amazing social life I was there to learn. I wanted to go to SLC because of what I'd learn. Do I feel like there were some things I missed out on because of the social scene? Sometimes, but then I remember the amazing education I got there. I wouldn't trade my professors, classes, experience for anything.

In my senior year of high school a friend (I use the term loosely now) asked me if my parents were worried I'd come back from SLC a militant lesbian. More than horrified, I told her they wouldn't care and that if there were parents on earth that couldn't care less, it'd be mine. She laughed and said her mom was worried she'd come back from GWU a Democrat. Another classmate asked if I'd worry about being "dateless" for 4 years. Apparently having a boyfriend was necessary to her college experience (huh, I just realized she also went to GWU) #genderincollegeadmissions
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Penny
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
I'm bothered by the comparisons to AA. For me, AA has less to do with diversity (which is important, of course) and more to do with recognizing economic barriers and lack of resources/opportunities.

None of which is a problem for young men on the whole. #genderincollegeadmissions
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femme-bot
11/11/09

@Penny: I agree. AA is kind of there to make up for the barriers society places in front of minorities. Young white men don't have these "barriers", and comparing the two is almost offensive. #genderincollegeadmissions
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Penny
11/11/09

@femme-bot: It's offensive to me. And I'm white. #genderincollegeadmissions
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PilgrimSoul
11/11/09

@Penny: yeah but chicks get easily offended. #genderincollegeadmissions
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Evie Havok
11/11/09

@Penny: Don't worry. White women are the primary beneficiaries of Affirmative Action. I don't understand why you would be offended.
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Penny
11/11/09

@Evie Havok: Thanks for the lesson. #genderincollegeadmissions
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nozer
11/11/09

@Penny: Actually there have been many, many reports of how boys are consistently falling behind in education. The reasoning is less a lack of resources/opportunities, and more of a cultural one (boys focusing on gang activity instead of school work, not having a male role model at home), but the fact remains that young girls are achieving more than boys in school. I would say that the point of AA is to understand that not everyone is able to succeed at the same level, and that allowing those that are unable to succeed to still have a chance at higher education in order to promote diversity is a good thing. And yes, gender diversity can be as important as ethnic diversity. I'm not saying we should be letting people into universities just for diversity sake, but it seems that if you support AA, you should be able to support this. I think if you don't, you're not fully realizing the many other factors that can contribute to educational barriers.

Edited to add: Likewise, if you don't believe in AA, then this policy is stupid. All I am arguing for is that the fundamentals behind both policies are essentially the same.
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Penny promoted this comment Edited by nozer at 11/11/09 1:15 PM nozer was starred nozer was unstarred

Penny
11/11/09

@nozer: The cultural issue is the one I have a beef with. And supporting this kind of diversifying simply reifies the cultural norm that men don't have to work as hard to get the same benefit.

The fact does remain that boys are underachieving, but this is a relatively recent phenomenon and the focus should be in lower education.

Any kind of diversity is positive, but I will not equate this kind of diversity to the kind created with AA. #genderincollegeadmissions
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nozer
11/11/09

@Penny: I definitely agree that the focus should be in lower education, but I think we might have to agree to disagree on the the difference between this and AA. The way I see it, you could easily say that AA tells minorities they don't have to work as hard to get the same benefit. The difference being that the barriers associated with lower class/minority students are much more visible and definitive than those separating girls and boys. #genderincollegeadmissions
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PilgrimSoul
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
I think this goes back to Ariel Levy's point about representational feminism and its limits. Because so far as I can tell, us ladies dominating small liberal arts colleges is not precisely getting us equal pay for equal works, abortion rights, whatever. #genderincollegeadmissions
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thehighshelf
11/11/09

@PilgrimSoul: A Black president ended racism, so I don't see why more women than men going to small schools somewhere doesn't put an end to sexism.

My boyfriend, also.
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pesematology
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
If it's not a "healthy situation for either gender" then why are there successful all-female schools?

Research actually indicates that all-female education is good for girls, while all-male education isn't any better for boys than mixed-gender education is. This research was conducted on a younger population, but I wouldn't be surprised if it generalized to college students.

Also, wouldn't it be nice if part of a young man's education was learning to deal respectfully with peers in settings that may not conform to the male-dominated "norm"? #genderincollegeadmissions
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whynotshesaid
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
Gosh, I find it interesting that laws and shit had to be passed to make colleges more amenable to admitting women, but that the second things tip the other way, they are falling over themselves to roll out the red carpet for male students.

Shouldn't they be looking at the real issue? Education has become feminized in the eyes of many, and as with everything that becomes feminized, it loses its wider social worth. THAT is the root of the problem that needs addressing, and I am not sure a quota for male students even begins to scratch the surface of the issue. #genderincollegeadmissions
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Hazey Jane
11/11/09

@whynotshesaid: I think that is an excellent point. I go to a university where the balance of women to men is about 60:40, but I study a "masculine" subject (math). In my first two years, I'd say the balance was about 50:50, but now, in my final year, I'm noticing that the boys have the numbers advantage in at least one of my classes (and the staff—especially lecturers and professors are overwhelmingly male). I would hazard a guess that there is a similar situation in a few of the other science departments (though I don't have any real proof of this—this is all my perception).

The overwhemingly "female" departments tend to be the arts subjects: languages, literature, art history, etc. Incidentally, these are the subjects that frequently get referred to as "a waste of time" or "not a real degree" and are perceived not to be as challenging (even though art history exams sound about a million times more difficult and terrifying than anything I've ever had to face) as the sciences. I doubt highly that this sort of subject-related snobbery was so prevalent when higher education was the sole domain of men.
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Penny
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
I went to a university where the majority race was Asian.

For me, this is synonymous to plucking out applications from Asian applicants and tossing them in the trash to "balance things out."

It's just wrong. As others have said, take all identifying information off of the application. If there is not enough diversity in universities, that needs to be addressed in LOWER education. Not higher. #genderincollegeadmissions
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Snowbunny
11/11/09

@Penny: Yes, this. College admission should be based on academic merit because one's success in university is not going to hinge on their sex or race but their ability to focus up and do their work #genderincollegeadmissions
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emfish55
11/11/09

@Penny: So true. Especially since admitting less qualified men only reinforces the existing social norm -- that women must work harder to accomplish the same things as their male peers. The last thing we need to do is teach young men that they can slack off while their female classmates work, and still get the exact same rewards, just because they are men. #genderincollegeadmissions
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funnyface
11/11/09

@Penny: I agree. I never understood why my race, gender, or even income status was relevant to how well I'd perform in college and what I'd bring to the table. We need to ensure that everyone is ready and qualified for admissions to college, rather than changing standards to achieve some sort of goal. If certain groups, be they white men or students of color, aren't getting in in a ratio proportional to their percentage of the population as a whole, then we need to examine how k-12 education can be changed to level the playing field. #genderincollegeadmissions
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beginner sushi
11/11/09

@funnyface: But I don't think that Higher Ed shouldn't have a commitment to diversity. For better or for worse, getting into college is not simply about merit. It's a myth. Colleges take into consideration race, gender, and income status in order to uphold their mission statement of creating a diverse student body. They certainly are not going to admit someone who will not succeed at their college or is not qualified, but things like race come into consideration because things like race *do* dictate what kind of life you lead and opportunities you are given.
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Penny
11/11/09

@beginner sushi: Yes but having a penis does not dictate these things, in fact, it's usually the opposite.

Which is why the comparison to AA is bogus. #genderincollegeadmissions
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beginner sushi
11/11/09

@Penny: I never argued that men should get AA benefits. I was simply arguing against the idea that college is about merit only. #genderincollegeadmissions
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Evie Havok
11/11/09

@funnyface: Yes, because if we get rid of those race, gender, and income status boxes everything will be fair and equal. No, the ones who will be screwed over (if we get rid of those things) will be minorities, the poor, and certain women. Let's be real here, all of us know that if we get rid of those boxes most universities would probably have a white male majority. I'm all for those boxes because they benefit me. And, please, academic merit is not all the admissions offices are looking for. They want diversity which comes in many forms including race, gender, income status, etc. (sidenote: i've none tons of legacy students who were c students and got into ivy leagues. what about them? they didn't get in because of acadamic merit.) #genderincollegeadmissions
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biochemgal
11/11/09

@Penny: I totally agree that it would be ideal if we could fix the imbalances in lower education, for obvious reasons. However, I don't think that you could take all identifying information off of the application. A huge part of that application are the essays, which is all about identifying information. It may not always be there, and it may not always be explicit, but it happens often enough that the idea of making the application completely anonymous isn't entirely practical. It also wouldn't allow you to evaluate the applicant as a whole person rather than merely based on scores, which is how most private schools like to do things, not to mention problematic in and of itself. #genderincollegeadmissions
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Penny
11/11/09

@beginner sushi: I understand that. College is not just about merit. I worked for years in an admissions office so I have some idea of what is looked for. However, merit-based qualifiers ARE used to weed out "undesirables." I am just uncomfortable with tossing the male/female balance into the diversity mix.

And, while it's totally unrealistic, I just hope we as a society recognize that we need to look at things on the front end, not force it on the back end. #genderincollegeadmissions
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Penny
11/11/09

@biochemgal: Yes, I actually want to retract my statement that all identifying information should be removed. Some are more valid than others. #genderincollegeadmissions
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beginner sushi
11/11/09

@Penny: Which is why I said no one is admitted to a college campus unless they are expected to do well. (RE: merit-based qualifiers.)

I don't think admissions offices should change their policies to let more of a socially-dominant and already privileged group in; I don't think we are having an argument, really--we are in agreement about that.

But I *do* think there needs to be policies in place in college admissions in order to create a diverse student body. Just because things aren't working well for diversity in K-12 doesn't mean Higher Ed should throw up their hands and say, "well, it's not OUR responsibility to create diversity now." #genderincollegeadmissions
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Penny
11/11/09

@beginner sushi: Yes I think we're in agreement :-) #genderincollegeadmissions
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beginner sushi
11/11/09

@Penny: yay :] #genderincollegeadmissions
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angelheadedhipster
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
I attended a state school in Virginia for undergrad and I used to love it when in-state males (I was an out-of-state male, for the record) protested affirmative action. By being a Virginian and being a male at a school that was always trying to attract more male applicants, they were the ones benefiting from any "affirmative action" policies in place. #genderincollegeadmissions
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Penny
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
So, less qualified males are accepted over more qualified females simply to "balance" gender.

I have several problems with this.

To start, who the fuck cares if the genders are balanced? It's simply a reflection of a changing demographic.

Secondly, I find it interesting that IMMEDIATELY after the scales were tipped (females outnumbered males) it was felt that something needed to be done. Where was this concern for balance when males greatly outnumbered females in universities?

Third. I think this is a reflection of how extended education is evolving and how a 4 year university is not necessarily the best choice for everyone. We must look at what fields females enter disproportionately (i.e. teaching) and whether a 4 year degree is required. It's not necessarily BAD that more males, and females, are opting to apprentice, enter community/technology colleges or vocational schools.

Basically, I think this is horse shit. #genderincollegeadmissions
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whynotshesaid
11/11/09

@Penny: Yes, on all counts. The reason for the original affirmative action laws was because there were so many institutional barriers in place to keep women and people of color out of colleges. It wasn't like women and people of color were just deciding not to go to college, which as far as I can tell is what is happening with a lot of male students - they are just opting out in favor of a tech job or construction job or something. #genderincollegeadmissions
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morninggloria
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
... but if there are not enough boys in college, who will hold up the girl cheerleaders in the background of College Gameday?! #genderincollegeadmissions
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angelheadedhipster
11/11/09

@morninggloria: Female rugby players. #genderincollegeadmissions
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morninggloria
11/11/09

@angelheadedhipster: I suppose that they can fill the football roster, too. #genderincollegeadmissions
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annebreal
11/11/09

In reply to Are Colleges Discriminating Against Women?
I graduated from a female-majority college, and I don't think it was ever really a concern for the administration; I worked for the president and never heard it discussed, anyway. I think the ratio was like 4 females for every male or some such. The dating dynamics weren't really that bad, it seemed like yeah, every guy there was taken, but often it was by their high school girlfriend or someone else outside school. Really the thing that sucked was that male/female friendships were harder to come by. Going into college, I had a lot of really close guy friends, and then found myself in college hanging out exclusively with girls and gay guys. There weren't enough guys period, and most were in serious relationships or engaged, and weren't going to start hanging out with single girls. I was a "pink collar" major - social work - so I don't think I was ever going to have many guys in my classes (there were only about a half dozen who ended up graduating with us), and I have to say that sometimes the gender imbalance could be distracting in the classroom in certain classes that were nearly 100% female, because guy classmates were a novelty. But eh. Generally I don't think it was at all a negative for the school, I really don't think they were recruiting guys to try and fix the imbalance, and it ended up being a really good thing that I learned to have really good relationships with other females, because that's something I was missing before. #genderincollegeadmissions
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